How good are Japanese submarines?
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There are good boats, with towed arrays senors, sub harpoon, there own heavey weight wire guilded torpedo's, in the past heavy usage of american sonar technology. The japanese could easily have a force of 30 boats, they tend to have 20, placing older types.
Has for the future, no SSN's, but large 3000 ton AIP vessels with a full range of weapons. Of course there boats do not have to go far to meet there "friends" the chinese and the russians.
I would compare them to Upholder (facotring out time), when this class was build is had effectivly the same electronic and weapons fit as a Trafalger. Thus making is amoung the most effective SSN's in the world. You can also imagine the excellent training these men of the japanese navy recieve.
Your question is also more interesting in light of the exspanding chinese submarine force, the the japanese being an island nation. There is already a real arms race between these two navies, and it will continue.
Has for the future, no SSN's, but large 3000 ton AIP vessels with a full range of weapons. Of course there boats do not have to go far to meet there "friends" the chinese and the russians.
I would compare them to Upholder (facotring out time), when this class was build is had effectivly the same electronic and weapons fit as a Trafalger. Thus making is amoung the most effective SSN's in the world. You can also imagine the excellent training these men of the japanese navy recieve.
Your question is also more interesting in light of the exspanding chinese submarine force, the the japanese being an island nation. There is already a real arms race between these two navies, and it will continue.
If, and its a big if, there was a dust up between US and China over Taiwan, would Japan get involved? Would they alow the US to use Japan as a base for subs, ships aircraft etc? Would Japanese SSk go hunting Chinese subs surface ships? I have my doubts but would love to hear other points of view.
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Dr Phobus said:
Im putting my money on the Japanese. The PLAN sub force just doesn't have the expertise yet to engage in an arms race with probably the world's second most technologically advanced state. The Chinese have a real problem with crews too. Last I heard, they are only getting 30 percent of the training time that western submariners get.
As for training and dedication, there certainly is no lack of skill and audacity with Chinese submariners, given that some of them play cat and mouse with US-Japanese naval exercises. A Chinese sub (an old Ming class even) was literally observing a Japanese naval exercise at a close distance and was virtually undetected for days, till it finally decided to surface right in front of the Japanese fleet and swam away. A Han nuclear sub ran full speed underwater past the island chains then went and encircled the island of Guam before heading back. No doubt it was noisy enough to be tracked, but no doubt they did it to send a message.
As for technology, the Chinese have reached to the point they can now (since the year 2000) build slow turning, 7 bladed skewed propellers and use anecholic tiles on their Song class subs. Certainly Japan leads the world in the machinery to create such precision propellers, but the Chinese have developed some capabilit on their own. The Chinese state of sonar technologies remains unknown but we know the command systems of their Song subs are digital. Furthermore, these subs could launch YJ-8X AshMs underwater.
The most modern Japanese subs like the Oyashio and Hayashio can be counted as among the best SSKs in the world, but the new Yuan and Song classes are no slouch, and neither is the new Type 093 SSN. And on top of that, China got the latest Kilos that could fire the Klub-S missile.
As for technology, the Chinese have reached to the point they can now (since the year 2000) build slow turning, 7 bladed skewed propellers and use anecholic tiles on their Song class subs. Certainly Japan leads the world in the machinery to create such precision propellers, but the Chinese have developed some capabilit on their own. The Chinese state of sonar technologies remains unknown but we know the command systems of their Song subs are digital. Furthermore, these subs could launch YJ-8X AshMs underwater.
The most modern Japanese subs like the Oyashio and Hayashio can be counted as among the best SSKs in the world, but the new Yuan and Song classes are no slouch, and neither is the new Type 093 SSN. And on top of that, China got the latest Kilos that could fire the Klub-S missile.
I am sure in time the quality of the chinese fleet will improve. I disagree, there IS an arms race between chinese and japanese navy, with the chinese at least able and willing (politically) to build SSN's and carriers, the next generation of SSN is being built with russian assisstence. We may well see an exspanding japanese navy to keep in check with chinese blue water navy exspansion.
Morever, look at the type 52c/type 52b class destoyers, modern looking vessels with well, proabably fairly decent performace.. how good, who knows.
Look for a large 25 plus force of japanese AIP boats, they will overcome lock of nuclear propulsion by having SSK with high capacity AIP "fuel cells".
:lul
Morever, look at the type 52c/type 52b class destoyers, modern looking vessels with well, proabably fairly decent performace.. how good, who knows.
Look for a large 25 plus force of japanese AIP boats, they will overcome lock of nuclear propulsion by having SSK with high capacity AIP "fuel cells".
:lul
However, no one in this forum as questioned the qualtity of the japanese submarine fleet. Its proabably 4-5th most capable in the world i would imagine
top submarine forces, by capability.
1- USN
2- Russian navy, sheer number and modern designs
3- RN, getting smaller, 8-9 SSN's in future
4- Japan large modern fleet of SSK, soon with wide spread AIP tecnology
5 (6?)- French, getting smaller, 6 SSN's in future, maybe SSK also ?
6- (5?) China, growing, SSN (very limited for now), SSK in numbers
possion 5 and 6 are very debatable.
any thoughts ?
top submarine forces, by capability.
1- USN
2- Russian navy, sheer number and modern designs
3- RN, getting smaller, 8-9 SSN's in future
4- Japan large modern fleet of SSK, soon with wide spread AIP tecnology
5 (6?)- French, getting smaller, 6 SSN's in future, maybe SSK also ?
6- (5?) China, growing, SSN (very limited for now), SSK in numbers
possion 5 and 6 are very debatable.
any thoughts ?
What about the Germans, 12+ modern subs? Just a though. The new U212s will be very capable and global in nature as well.
I agree with you, except, there is going to be no force of 12 german subs, at present look for a force of 6 boats (U-212a/b). Excellent boats, good crews, but also lacking in open water training. No way with ther cost of U-212 class will they have more than 8, 6 is projected at present.
I understand that in a war over Tawian, Japan wil be a logistical hub for the americans. Thus, indirectly the Japanese will be involed, and of course the sub force is a great way to be covertly invovled, even if it blocking/patrolling the american's back door. Interesting concept, the jap subs hunting chinese SSK's/SSN's.
:nutkick
:nutkick
Crusader2000
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The Japanese would surely be involved in any Chinese/Taiwan Conflict. From a Logistical Hub in a Blockade to a full partner in a all out War. Really, I would be shocked. If, the USN and JMSDF didn't train regularly on Anti-Submarine Missions with there combined SSK/SSN fleets.Dr Phobus said:
I can not imagine the chinese sub force lasting long against a combined USN/Japan navel forces. It will be on hell of a navel and air battle, one with far reaching implacations i am sure. Still, it would be folly to think the chinese navy could win any protracted conflict between them and USA/Japan.Crusader2000 said:The Japanese would surely be involved in any Chinese/Taiwan Conflict. From a Logistical Hub in a Blockade to a full partner in a all out War. Really, I would be shocked. If, the USN and JMSDF didn't train regularly on Anti-Submarine Missions with there combined SSK/SSN fleets.
thoughts please
Crusader2000
Banned Member
Which, would you consider superior SSN's or SSK's? Also, why did the Royal Navy go from a mix fleet of Nuclear and Diesel to SSN's and SSBN's only?Dr Phobus said:
Crusader2000
Banned Member
Dr Phobus said:
I think you hit the nail on the head! Any Taiwanese/Chinese conflict would surely involve several countries (i.e. Taiwan, Japan, US, UK, Australia, etc.) and there combined forces would be just to much for China to counter.......
The mixed dub fleet concept was so that one could place the SSK;s in a defensive position (GIUK gap) with SSN behind them to react to attacks/break-throws, also, the SSN force had more an offensive ability with escort and counter-sub operations. The upholder class was originally going to be a class of 12 boats, for such patrolling/defensive operations, and the SSN force was for battle group escort and attack.Crusader2000 said:
When the cold war went away, there was no foreseen need for a patrol force, indeed, NATO/EU operations are mainly offensive or peace-keeping in nature. Hence the RN kept SSN's only.
RN's had a way to save a load of money on platforms, operations and personnel, but without losing real strike power.
I hope this helps
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