Hellenic Navy(Greek)/Tier 5 Analysis

[beleg]

Well HN is one of the respectable navies in its region and i do believe that Meko200s are fantastic ships. However when i talked to an officer about the FFGs of TN he prefered the exOHP class ships over Mekos despite the latter being newer. Currently TN is modernising the combat management and control system of G class(exOHPs) under a project called Genesis. The system will most probably be used in Turkish national corvettes (MilGEM) which are will enter service in the next decade replacing the French corvettes.
TN has SM-1 ability but , a plan of purchasing a dedicated AAW to replace the SM-1 is onhold at least for the moment because USA doesnt release Aegis and SM-2 for sale to Turkey & Greece not to disturb the balance..
There is no current plan to upgrade the Gclass with a VLS like the australians are doing and also the latest Meko200s of TN lacks the VLS.

Is there anynews from the potential Arleigh Burke request of Greece from the USA?

You can see pictures of TN FFGs and FACs that i tok at various times at my gallery below.

http://gallery.koroshiya.net/gallery/tolga

 

[diopos]

Well HN is one of the respectable navies in its region and i do believe that Meko200s are fantastic ships. However when i talked to an officer about the FFGs of TN he prefered the exOHP class ships over Mekos despite the latter being newer. Currently TN is modernising the combat management and control system of G class(exOHPs) under a project called Genesis. The system will most probably be used in Turkish national corvettes (MilGEM) which are will enter service in the next decade replacing the French corvettes.
TN has SM-1 ability but , a plan of purchasing a dedicated AAW to replace the SM-1 is onhold at least for the moment because USA doesnt release Aegis and SM-2 for sale to Turkey & Greece not to disturb the balance..
There is no current plan to upgrade the Gclass with a VLS like the australians are doing and also the latest Meko200s of TN lacks the VLS.

Is there anynews from the potential Arleigh Burke request of Greece from the USA?

You can see pictures of TN FFGs and FACs that i tok at various times at my gallery below.

http://gallery.koroshiya.net/gallery/tolga

Beleg thank you for your opinion , TN is also a very respectable Navy in mediterranean.
As a user of 8 ships , i am sure like you said that the officers are very satisfied with the performance of these ships and with a possible upgrade investment in the next few years they will increase their capabilities (especially after being able to cary ESSM).
I have read a bit about this project of Perry upgrade and it seems that it will go well .
I dont know about Perry and MEKO , there are many different opinions when comparing these two ships , but like i mentioned in previous post Perry have the advantage of SM1 missiles but lack in some other fields.

There are no news about the request of Burke ships , (the only request accepted was those for two mine warfare ships OSPREY and for Turkey for the two Spruance ships - ).
I do not think that there are possibilities for Burkes to come in the next 1-2 years + if they come they will have not all the systems .

Also there is a quite big dispute in HN and other defence people , if HN should ask for such large ships (just imagine the crew and the cost of maintainance of such ships).

If there are any news i will post them in the forum!

I go to have a look at the pics now!!

greetings from Greece

 

[tatra]

I have never seen an Australian ship in the region of eastern mediterannean .(not even a joke about Korea or Taiwan , they dont operate world wide for sure ).

As about Germany and Netherlands these i respect more , because they participate continuously in all NATO exercises and they have presence in Med. but also north Sea.
But you will not see a german frigate in Philipinnes nor a dutch one.

And if this is what we mean global presence then by far only USN has such capabilities followed by UK and France.

Haze Gray Photo Feature: Republic of Korea Navy visits Vancouver (November 12, 2000)
http://www.hazegray.org/features/rok/
ROK Navy Visits Wasp in Kuwait (8/31/2004)
http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=14978

ROC Navy's Midshipmen Cruising & Training Squadron visits Belize

Belmopan - 21 March, 2001.
http://www.belize.gov.bz/features/roc_navy/welcome.html

Sailor receives royal treatment (HMAS Anzac visits India, Egypt, Malta, Turkey, Europe and the UK in 2004)
http://www.defence.gov.au/news/navynews/editions/4813/topstories/story04.htm

Naval Ships Visit India (1997)
http://www.germanembassy-india.org/news/dec97/gn09.htm
The German navy routinely operates in the Horn of Africa.

You doubt that the Royal Dutch navy - having been the main link between The Netherlands and its former colony Indonesia for centuries - cannot manage getting to and from the Philippines? Get a grip!​

 

[diopos]

Oh come on Tatra, i do not doubt about your information provided nor about some visits that these navies do abroad.

But it is far very different to make some visits (training reasons or humanitarian aid ) from showing power presence.
USN is the trully only one which because of the quantity and the quality of its ships can really be in every ocean.

I know this kind of visits you presented above , most of them are routine visits for most navies especially for the future officers (naval academies).
Similar visits do almost all navies (including HN and TN).

 

[turin]

USN is the trully only one which because of the quantity and the quality of its ships can really be in every ocean.

Apart from what the USN is able to do and more importantly in which quantity they can do it, that certainly is by no way deciding on wether the UK or France or even the Netherlands and to a much lesser degree Germany (since it has no LHD/LHA and currently no Land-attack capability) are able to project power in a certain part of the world.
However at least the UK and France are clearly able to do so and in a much more sophisticated fashion than lets say Greece or Turkey, which is not surprising in itself, since the doctrines of the latter two limit their navies role largely to the Mediterranean, while for France and UK the worldwide capabilities remain substantial. The Netherlands in comparison to their navy some centuries ago have lost such capabilities to a much greater part though and today their navy is merely a shadow of what has been once upon a time. Same goes for Spain btw.

 

[diopos]

Apart from what the USN is able to do and more importantly in which quantity they can do it, that certainly is by no way deciding on wether the UK or France or even the Netherlands and to a much lesser degree Germany (since it has no LHD/LHA and currently no Land-attack capability) are able to project power in a certain part of the world.
However at least the UK and France are clearly able to do so and in a much more sophisticated fashion than lets say Greece or Turkey, which is not surprising in itself, since the doctrines of the latter two limit their navies role largely to the Mediterranean, while for France and UK the worldwide capabilities remain substantial. The Netherlands in comparison to their navy some centuries ago have lost such capabilities to a much greater part though and today their navy is merely a shadow of what has been once upon a time. Same goes for Spain btw.
11 Hours Ago 01:46 AM

Turin , i agree with what you write , and by the way my post was not refering at all to Greece or Turkey because i did not make any comparison with germany or netherlands.

Like i wrote again in previous posts (look previous page) UK and France also as nuclear powers have quite good capabilities (of course not in any case compared to the MASSIVE USN power .)

For netherlands you are very right...i agree...its a shadow compared to the past.

Germany in a less degree but it is in a good level.

 

[tatra]

Turin , i agree with what you write , and by the way my post was not refering at all to Greece or Turkey because i did not make any comparison with germany or netherlands.

Like i wrote again in previous posts (look previous page) UK and France also as nuclear powers have quite good capabilities (of course not in any case compared to the MASSIVE USN power .)

For netherlands you are very right...i agree...its a shadow compared to the past.

Germany in a less degree but it is in a good level.

Well duh, compared to the 16th century, sure. Nonetheless, don't underestimate the ability some some of these smaller navies to succesfully operate out of area independently for a sustained period of time. That doesn't mean necessarily have to mean power projection (not part of their intended missions anyway). Think mine-sweeping operations in the Gulf, or disaster relief/humanitarian operations in Asia or drug busting in the Carribean.

The RNthN has fewer ships than before but for the first time has 2 nice LPDs to complement its AORs. It is geared towards working together with the RN on amphibious and ASW/Escort missions but can operate worldwide alone if needed. Could it liberate the Falklands? Doubtfull. Could it conduct a succesfull amphibious/air-assault operation to topple a military regime in former Dutch colony Surinam? Probably.

 

[diopos]

Some "fresh" news about HN

As it was reported from Elefsis Shipyards (under transfer technology contract with Vosper Thornycroft Shipbuilding UK) , currently the first three ships of type "Super Vita class Fast Attack Craft " are in sea trials and probably they will all be delivered by the end of 2005.The first ship of the class , Roussen has allready tested its guns and missiles during firing tests in the Aegean sea (against sea/air targets).

P-67 Roussen
P-68 Daniolos
P-69 Krystallidis

Picture : http://www.vosperthornycroft.co.uk/images/original/2395.jpg

And a short presentation of the main characteristics/weapons of the ships:

-Advanced Hull design to ensure that the vessels are capable of achieving the high speeds required by the operational role of this type of craft, coupled with superior seakeeping, especially in the higher sea states.

-Efficient propulsion systems to ensure economy of operation at cruising speeds.

-Good platform with uncluttered weather deck areas to facilitate seaboat operations.

-Modern Techniques for the effective control of radar and infra-red signatures.

-Reduction of subjective motion levels for crew

Length : 62m

Displacement : 580 tfl

Machinery : 4 MTU 16V595 TE90 engines

Max speed : 35 Knots

Guns : 1 x Oto Melara Super Rapid 76mm , 2 x Oto Melara 30mm

Missiles : SSM 2 x 4 Exocet MM40 Block II , SAM 1 x 21 RAM GMWS Mk 31

Radar Air/Surface search: Thales MW08 3D G-band surveillance radar, Thales Nederland Mirador electro-optical target tracker, an integrated Thales Nederland Scout Mark II low probability of intercept radar and Northrop Grumman (formerly Litton) Marine Bridgemaster-E navigation radar, Thales Sting fire control system.

CounterMeasures : Decoys: 4 x Mk36 Sippican SRBOC , ESM/ECM Argo Systems AR900 ,DR3000

 

[beleg]

Some "fresh" news about HN

As it was reported from Elefsis Shipyards (under transfer technology contract with Vosper Thornycroft Shipbuilding UK) , currently the first three ships of type "Super Vita class Fast Attack Craft " are in sea trials and probably they will all be delivered by the end of 2005.The first ship of the class , Roussen has allready tested its guns and missiles during firing tests in the Aegean sea (against sea/air targets).

P-67 Roussen
P-68 Daniolos
P-69 Krystallidis

Picture : http://www.vosperthornycroft.co.uk/images/original/2395.jpg

And a short presentation of the main characteristics/weapons of the ships:

-Advanced Hull design to ensure that the vessels are capable of achieving the high speeds required by the operational role of this type of craft, coupled with superior seakeeping, especially in the higher sea states.

-Efficient propulsion systems to ensure economy of operation at cruising speeds.

-Good platform with uncluttered weather deck areas to facilitate seaboat operations.

-Modern Techniques for the effective control of radar and infra-red signatures.

-Reduction of subjective motion levels for crew

Hello,
Both TN and HN has some modern FACs. I have some questions and would be happy if you could provide answers.

Turkey has traditiionally selected German FACs , whats the situation for Greece?

Turkey uses Harpoon and Penguin on her FACs. What is the situation on the HN side?

What is the capability of Super Vitas in high sea conditions usually seen in the Aegean?

Thank you

 

[diopos]

Hello,
Both TN and HN has some modern FACs. I have some questions and would be happy if you could provide answers.

Turkey has traditiionally selected German FACs , whats the situation for Greece?

Turkey uses Harpoon and Penguin on her FACs. What is the situation on the HN side?

What is the capability of Super Vitas in high sea conditions usually seen in the Aegean?

Thank you

Merhaba Beleg
Like you said TN and HN have the largest fleet of FACs in the mediterranean (if i am wrong perhaps someone could correct me).

I have answered to your question in a previous post in the navy list thread , here i make a copy for you :

The current (october 2005) status of HN PDGs and PCGs is as follows :

--> There are no any Saar IV boats carying anti-ship missiles. (the only Saar 4 boats that i have seen with my eyes are in use from the Hellenic Coastguard and cary no missiles)

--> 6 Type 148 (or CombattanteIIA) Fast Attack Ships (PTGs ) (P-72 , P-73 and P-77 cary EXOCET MM38 missiles while all the rest cary HARPOON)

P-72 Votsis (ex german P6152 /built 1973 / delivered from HN in 1995)
P-73 Pezopoulos (ex german P6142 /built 1972 /delivered from HN in 1995)
P-74 Vlachavas (ex german P6144/built 1973 /delivered 1995)
P-75 Maridakis (ex german P6151 /built 1974/delivered 1995)
P-76 Tournas (ex german P6145/built 1973/delivered 2000)
P-77 Sakipis (ex german P6147/built 1973/delivered 2000)

--> 9 Combattante III (both III and IIIB)
Fast Attack boats (PGGs) (french design , built in France and Greece , P-20,21,22,23 have EXOCET MM38 while P-24,26,27,28,29 have PENGUIN Mk2 missiles , ~45Otons full load)

P-24 Kavaloudis (built 1979)
P-26 Degiannis (built 1980)
P-27 Xenos (built 1980)
P-28 Simitzopoulos (built 1980)
P-29 Starakis (built 1980)

P-20 Laskos (built 1976 )
P-21 Blessas (built 1976)
P-22 Mykonios (built 1977)
P-23 Troupakis (built 1976)

There is in progress an upgrade program for some of the above ships (undertaken by THALES-mainly new sensors/radars/EW systems)

The following small boats (115tons) were originaly ordered for cyprus but after the invasion they were delivered to the HN. (built in france 1974 / SS-11/12 missiles).

P-286 Antoniou
P-287 Stamou

--> And finally under order/delivery are the followin 5 Super Vita PGGs (Vosper design , EXOCET MM 40 Block 2 missiles + RAM)

P-67 Roussen (delivery end 2005)
P-68 Daniolos (delivery end 2005)
P-69 Krystallidis (delivery end 2005)
P-70 Grigoropoulos (2007?)
P-71 Ritsos (2007?)

Regarding your question about super vitas , i have no exact data available , but probably it has the same limitations that ships of this displacement have.
Super vitas are the HN equivalent to Kilic class FACs of TN.
I hope i helped a bit

 

[beleg]

Thanks alot friend, i must have missed that one.

Greece has an impressive force of FACs which is the natural choice to defend so many islands, with the help of the land based Exocets , southern Aegean is a dangerous place for enemy navies.. At least in good weather conditions ..

Also the inventory of the missles is similar to TNs, using from the smaller Penguin to bigger Harpoon supplemented by Exocet..

 

[diopos]

The next 10-years navy plan was announced before some days :

(cost is in million of euros)

Here is a list of the programs with cost over 100 million euro :

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3 (+3) new frigates 1,400 (+1,400)

5 maritime aircrafts (250)

upgrade program of MEKO-200 frigates (200)

1 submarine rescue ship (180)

5 second hand mine hunters (200)

3 new FAC (450)

1 new replenishment ship /tanker (200 - 300)

new torpidoes (110)

upgrade of naval observation posts (160)

3 gunboats (150)

3 S-70 hellicopters (150)

missile upgrade (100)

1 new landing ship/command and control (150)

expences for peacekeeping operations (500)

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