Has Australia been out-Flanked?

[Rich]

Some good points made here. The biggest of which is that "platforms" and "toys" alone dont even begin to tell the whole picture. History is rife with air battles won between equal air forces in equipment, or even by the lesser one, thru superior training, tactics, and maintenance.

Also another point. Like Britain in the Falklands only more so, Australia is wired into the Military Intel network of the USA. Actually Australia is a valuable part of it with many Intel assets on its land-space as well as being locked in by treaty and a "special relationship". So this means the RAAF would control the information battlefield as well.

No matter how you look at it there is no nation in the region capable of controlling the air around Australia. When the F-35 JSF comes on line the door will close even more.

 

[chrisrobsoar]

There is a lot more to war fighting than "kicking the tyres and lighting the fires" (and similarly for land and sea based forces).

The NATO standard is 180hrs. I've flown with some fast jet pilots who have clocked up less than 200hrs in the whole of their careers (including basic training and simulators).

Long haul commercial pilots get lots of hours in the air but have little hands on time and very few landings.

Being current is very important in flying.

(BTW: I teach flying, gliders and GA., mainly gliding (80%) 4,000hrs & 10, 000+ launches at 300-500hrs per year, 1,000 – 1,200 launches per year. During discussions with a RAF Tornado F3 pilot who was converting to gliders we worked out that each year I had more take-offs and landings than the whole of his squadron [I am also my ex-squadron 29 Sqn] and more than half the hours flown by his squadron.)

Most countries do not train enough, to be safe in peace-time let alone during war.

Train hard, fight easy.

And that’s my spleen emptied.

 

[Paxter]

who would want to threaten aust?

urm i doubt any nation in asia would want to attack and take over australia it would be nearly impossible to do so cause of the australian land mass... besides msia singapore and australians are under FPDA and i dont think either one(msia singapore) would want to mess that up its our life line!

about the SU-30s i guess just wait and see prob when the mkm become active maybe australia and msia can have a little wargame together btw dont under rate asian pilots ESP singaporeans and malaysians both nations have year to year wargames with america and from what i hear american pilots have been impressed by the F-16s singapore flies and the mig 29s the malaysians fly. Btw about the spare parts comment from what i read in local defence mags. Sukhoi has open up a service center in malaysia to compliment the SU-30s which would be great!

i wouldnt really count indonesia as a threat 2 su-30s with gun pods wont do much... and 48 new su-30s? They cant even maintain their F-16s let alone 48 su-30s:duel

 

[410Cougar]

As many people have said before in this thread it all comes down to your pilots. Some of the best air forces in the world are operating planes that are 25 years old and have been upgraded so many times that you lose track. Canada, Germany, Australia, UK are all in this boat. The good news is that alot of pilots, particularly from AUS and the UK are seeing combat action more and more each year. Nothing beats practical training.

Countries like Canada and Germany are involved in alot of training exercises each year with our allies either here at Cold Lake, down in Nellis or overseas with our Euro friends. That also ensures pilot readiness.

Canada hasn't made an air to air kill in a very long while and hopefully it won't have to. However, all things being equal, I would take any Hornet pilot from the US, AUS, and CA and put them up against any one of the countries listed above.

Just my 0.02 worth...

Attila

 

[srev2004]

Admin: Text Deleted.

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[Ding]

if i may....

If i may give my 2 cents....

I do agree with Paxter. In regards to Indonesia, they do not have the capability to maintain their russian planes (or any planes they have for that matter) but it's different with Malaysia. Granted, the Hornets have a higher availability rate than the Fulcrums, but it's not to say that the Fulcrum is in a constant state of maintenance. We do have a good availability rate for the Fulcrums too.

In regards to 410Cougar... for the comment on taking a hornet pilot and putting it up against any 'country' above... here's a quote taken from a wikipedia website (not sure if it is reliable info... as far as i know it is. Confirmed by an Aussie pilot who was in Malaysia for the FPDA ex.)

The most recent event involving the MiG-29 occurred during the military exercise of nations under the Five Power Defense Arrangement, namely Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand, Australia and United Kingdom. Malaysian MiG-29s, upgraded with recent Russian and Western technology, fought mock air battles with Australian F/A-18A Hornets. The MiGs succeeded in downing all of the Australian Hornets during simulated air combat battles in both medium and short range combat. The Malaysians used AA-10, AA-12 and AA-11 missiles, against Australia's AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-7 Sparrow missiles. It has been reported that Malaysian AA-11 Archer missiles have a better warhead, longer range and a better IR sensor.

Many pundits such as the Federation of American Scientists recognize that in an individual dogfight, the MiG-29 is potentially better than the F-15 Eagle or F-16 Falcon.

In regards to the above matter... as what most of the forumers here believe, the aircraft is just a tool. it's the pilot that makes the difference.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

The Su and MiG problem harkens back to the days of "MiG Diplomacy" when the Soviets would literally give MiG's to friendlt states, then shut down the parts pipeline when that state was no longer friendly or cooperative to Soviet diplomacy etc.

Aircraft performance on paper is always impressive, I guess thats why Mr Kopp is such a paper tiger himself (Yes, I have finally read some of his articles now, I am not impressed!)

 

[Scorpius]

it's the pilot that makes the difference.

the F-22's case is different.It reduces the workload of the pilot(advanced avionics).but I agree the pilot makes the difference.
will the Australian air force acquire F-22s after F-35s?

 

[Ding]

well judging by history, after the first salvo of BVR missiles are fired, there will still be yanking and banking, turning and burning! So stick and rudder skills remain important.

 

[Aussie Digger]

If i may give my 2 cents....

I do agree with Paxter. In regards to Indonesia, they do not have the capability to maintain their russian planes (or any planes they have for that matter) but it's different with Malaysia. Granted, the Hornets have a higher availability rate than the Fulcrums, but it's not to say that the Fulcrum is in a constant state of maintenance. We do have a good availability rate for the Fulcrums too.

In regards to 410Cougar... for the comment on taking a hornet pilot and putting it up against any 'country' above... here's a quote taken from a wikipedia website (not sure if it is reliable info... as far as i know it is. Confirmed by an Aussie pilot who was in Malaysia for the FPDA ex.)

The most recent event involving the MiG-29 occurred during the military exercise of nations under the Five Power Defense Arrangement, namely Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand, Australia and United Kingdom. Malaysian MiG-29s, upgraded with recent Russian and Western technology, fought mock air battles with Australian F/A-18A Hornets. The MiGs succeeded in downing all of the Australian Hornets during simulated air combat battles in both medium and short range combat. The Malaysians used AA-10, AA-12 and AA-11 missiles, against Australia's AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-7 Sparrow missiles. It has been reported that Malaysian AA-11 Archer missiles have a better warhead, longer range and a better IR sensor.

Many pundits such as the Federation of American Scientists recognize that in an individual dogfight, the MiG-29 is potentially better than the F-15 Eagle or F-16 Falcon.

In regards to the above matter... as what most of the forumers here believe, the aircraft is just a tool. it's the pilot that makes the difference.

Ding, that info though extremely simplistic is essentially correct. What info is not revealed is the roles of the aircraft. What was intended by the exercise. Were the RAAF, defenders, offenders, etc. What "rules" with respect to EW/BVR shots were allowed?

Most airex's are completely scripted. Cope India was (the exercise everyone quotes up as proof of the SU-30's alleged "superiority" over F-15, regarded as the best current Western fighter) FPDA ex's are too.

AS to the MiG29 v Hornet, I'd like to see a "freeplay" ex nowadays. How do you think the Malay MiG's would go against our Hornet HUG's (with ASRAAM and AMRAAM missiles, plus a host of other upgrades)...

I personally think the MiG pilots would be in for a rude shock as the RAAF's Hornets are considered to be the best "legacy" (ie: non-Super Hornet) Hornet's in the world. The current head of Boeing, went on record and stated as much publicly...

As to rudder and stick skills, they are important, but not as important has high quality radar and BVR missiles. Anyone who thinks modern air combat is going to be decided by who can pull the most 'g's' is going to be in for a VERY rude shock...

 

[srev2004]

The Australians don't have force multipliers such as Mid Air Refuelers or AESA for that matter. How are they looking to incorporate such new things in their training in such a short time to utilize the JSF plane.

 

[Magoo]

In regards to 410Cougar... for the comment on taking a hornet pilot and putting it up against any 'country' above... here's a quote taken from a wikipedia website (not sure if it is reliable info... as far as i know it is. Confirmed by an Aussie pilot who was in Malaysia for the FPDA ex.)

The most recent event involving the MiG-29 occurred during the military exercise of nations under the Five Power Defense Arrangement, namely Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand, Australia and United Kingdom. Malaysian MiG-29s, upgraded with recent Russian and Western technology, fought mock air battles with Australian F/A-18A Hornets. The MiGs succeeded in downing all of the Australian Hornets during simulated air combat battles in both medium and short range combat. The Malaysians used AA-10, AA-12 and AA-11 missiles, against Australia's AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-7 Sparrow missiles. It has been reported that Malaysian AA-11 Archer missiles have a better warhead, longer range and a better IR sensor.

The RAAF's Hornets have not used AIM-7s or AIM-9s for about three years now, and I can be almost certain that no Australian Hornet pilot would talk in such a way in an open forum.

The AA-11 is better than the AIM-9M, but lacks the range and seeker capability of the ASRAAM, Python 5, and AIM-9X. The AIM-120C-5 is a new world compared the AIM-7M in speed, range, radar performance, and most importantly perhaps, reliability.

Magoo

 

[Magoo]

The Australians don't have force multipliers such as Mid Air Refuelers or AESA for that matter. How are they looking to incorporate such new things in their training in such a short time to utilize the JSF plane.

The RAAF currently has a limited training air-to-air refuelling capability in the form of three 707s which will be replaced by five A330MRTTs from 2008 (the first aircraft actually left the Toulouse production line last week!). In anticipation of the arrival of the new tankers, we currently have several pilots and boom operators on exchange with US units, occasionally flying combat missions over Iraq and Afghanistan. We'll be ready.

As for other force multipliers, the Hornets have the APG-73 which, although not an AESA radar, is very capable. They also have Link-16/MIDS, will soon have datalinked Litening AT pods, JDAM, and datalinked JASSM stand off strike missiles. The RAAF will also have six Wedgetail AEW&C aircraft by late 2008, probably the most capable AEW&C platform flying, and to this end, again, several RAAF crews are currently on exchange with USAF and RAF E-3 units.

Add to this mix the ISR capabilities of the AP-3C which will also soon have datalinks, the coming UAVs for Army (JP129) and Air Force (AIR7000), JORN which is one of the most underestimated (and under-acknowledged) capabilities the ADF (or anyone) has, and Vigilare (which will tie it all together through EASTROC, NORTHROC and Glenbrook), and it's probably fair to say within the next five years, the RAAF's force multipliers will ALL be in place and fully operational before a single JSF sets foot in-country.

Magoo

 

[Ding]

Aussie Digger

I do not know the full rule of the airex. what I do know is that the RAAF is the Blue force and the RMAF is the red force. The RAAF is tasked to attack a ground target (i think it was a radar installation in Batu Arang) and the RMAF is to protect it at all cost. No EW involved other that EW on the attacking and defending aircrafts. BVR and VR simulations are used.

Magoo

the Aussie pilot was not talking on the forum. The RAAF squadron was hosted in Kuantan AB and they were staying in a hotel close by. I had the chance of having dinner with them (nice fellas ) and we were talking about the airex.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

One thing to keep in mind with international military excersises. Pilots or other Military Personel will always be very generous and modest about their own capabilities and success. But on the other hand they will go out of their way to compliment and build the confidense of a host nation by extilling the virtues of that paticular military or country. While I have no doubt as to the capabilities of the Malaysian Air Arm, I also know that the capabiliteis and kit that the Aussie F 18 is the envie of most other nations. This sounds like the same press that was given after the Indian Airforce/USAF cooperative ex, where the IAF were given superman status because the ROE Imposed on USAF Eagles were very restrictive.

Lets get real and regarding a Radar station target, sounds like a target worthy of a Tomahawk, or a JSAM, or a HARM, not a direct old fashioned attack.....

 

[Ding]

One thing to keep in mind with international military excersises. Pilots or other Military Personel will always be very generous and modest about their own capabilities and success. But on the other hand they will go out of their way to compliment and build the confidense of a host nation by extilling the virtues of that paticular military or country. While I have no doubt as to the capabilities of the Malaysian Air Arm, I also know that the capabiliteis and kit that the Aussie F 18 is the envie of most other nations. This sounds like the same press that was given after the Indian Airforce/USAF cooperative ex, where the IAF were given superman status because the ROE Imposed on USAF Eagles were very restrictive.

Lets get real and regarding a Radar station target, sounds like a target worthy of a Tomahawk, or a JSAM, or a HARM, not a direct old fashioned attack.....

Yep I understand that. They were very generous of the compliments. Thing is the Aussie currently have the best AF in the region. I was just replying to 410Cougar post where "all things being equal, I would take any Hornet pilot from the US, AUS, and CA and put them up against any one of the countries listed above".

That said, I'm very excited that we will be receiving our Su30MKMs soon, and I think it's a well rounded MRCA. Hopefully the next MRCA squadrons will be the SuperHornets. Our Fulcrums gave good service for us, it's just that they have short legs. Our Hawk 100 are okay, but the Hawk 200 are lemons in their "light fighter" configuration.

If I could give an opinion on RAAF, they wont be out flanked anytime soon. I'd be very happy if the RMAF can get to the level of the RAAF. Which will happen soon I hope.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Ding, I fully concur with you, I just wanted to point out the realities of International Air Ex as I have seen in the past.

I wasn't aware that the HAwk 200 was such a lomen, it sure looks neat, sort of a super Gnat!

As far as the SU 30 goes, I am not convinced regards its real comabat power. I only say that because of the country that makes it, and the weapons acquisition problems for it.

By western, it at least guarranties product support.

 

[tphuang]

Yep I understand that. They were very generous of the compliments. Thing is the Aussie currently have the best AF in the region. I was just replying to 410Cougar post where "all things being equal, I would take any Hornet pilot from the US, AUS, and CA and put them up against any one of the countries listed above".

That said, I'm very excited that we will be receiving our Su30MKMs soon, and I think it's a well rounded MRCA. Hopefully the next MRCA squadrons will be the SuperHornets. Our Fulcrums gave good service for us, it's just that they have short legs. Our Hawk 100 are okay, but the Hawk 200 are lemons in their "light fighter" configuration.

If I could give an opinion on RAAF, they wont be out flanked anytime soon. I'd be very happy if the RMAF can get to the level of the RAAF. Which will happen soon I hope.

If you are expecting MKM to be a well rounded MRCA, I think that's a little on the iffy side. Let's just say that MKK are suppose to be a lot more multirole than MKI/MKM, but the Russians are just simply slow with their PGM developments and such. MKM - good for air superiority, but if you want an MRCA squadron, it would have to be the superhornets

 

[srev2004]

If you are expecting MKM to be a well rounded MRCA, I think that's a little on the iffy side. Let's just say that MKK are suppose to be a lot more multirole than MKI/MKM, but the Russians are just simply slow with their PGM developments and such. MKM - good for air superiority, but if you want an MRCA squadron, it would have to be the superhornets

the MKI has a range of 8000 K.M. The F-18 is no where close to that.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

8,000 km is a long way to fly to get shot down! Especially when you consider that there is no AWACS support. BUt 8,000 KM! Hmmm, can that be qualified please, or is that the maximum Ferry range? Not combat range!