Gripen NG supercruzin for a bruzin

A

Aussie Digger

Guest
That's cool stuff AD., I've never said that Datalink16 isn't 'advanced' in its kind. Just that what we have is what I call 'peer2peer', more flexible and with a overall better performance, as far as I understand. Link16 can, if I'm correct, open up to four(?) 'timeslots/channels' and if you place them correctly in time, you will have a update every third second. Going against a landbased target I would presume this to be quite enough.
Link 16 operates in an enormous number of modes, and can in fact operate them simultaneously.

The idea of "one message every 12 seconds" is not the case at all. The time slots relate to when data can be transmitted or received yes, but onwhich actual network? Link 16 data is transmitted in a burst capacity of 7.5 milliseconds (or perhaps even quicker with the newer terminals, that was the time achieved back in 2000), for security and anti-jamming reasons. Anyway, who ever said that each JU can only access one slot at a time?

FYI, Link 16 works in fighter to fighter, air control, surveillance, EW, mission management/weapons coordination, secure voice, navigation, positive friendly identification (IFF) and network management operations and multi-access modes are most defintely possible...
 

yoron

New Member
Then you have info about the 'timeslots/channels ' that differs from mine AD.
You wouldn't happen to have a link about it?

Thanks AP, sad thing about TARAS really, but perhaps Link16 will surprise us. As for AD I'm not sure which statement you refer to LH? Anyhow, I said that I never heard about this Australian variant of talks before, nothing more? As for the rest of the NATO discussions I do know that they exist. But not that we were prepared to allow 'backdoors' to our cryptographic security just for playing with NATO. That really bugs me.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Then you have info about the 'timeslots/channels ' that differs from mine AD.
You wouldn't happen to have a link about it?
The Link's were posted a day ago... They still work, btw. I just tested them, though I use firefox. Perhaps IE doesn't care for them?

With Link 16, you need to be careful about which system you are actually describing.

Link 16 running the "advanced throughput" version on MIDS LVT terminals is a different beast to the early Link 16 and the legacy terminals that were initially designed for Link 11...

Still in a year or 2, MDS JTRS will be rolling out and given it will be backwards compatible with Link 16 MIDS, but also capable of simultaneously operating TTNT and the new wideband waveforms, well there will be a WHOLE different ball game then...

A view on the way forward for Link 16 MIDS and MDS JTRS can be found here:

http://www.google.com.au/url?q=http...result&usg=AFQjCNEfj7cR1PInKaRU4-Gl9lRUjLnjpA
 

yoron

New Member
Link 16 operates in an enormous number of modes, and can in fact operate them simultaneously.

The idea of "one message every 12 seconds" is not the case at all. The time slots relate to when data can be transmitted or received yes, but on which actual network? Link 16 data is transmitted in a burst capacity of 7.5 milliseconds (or perhaps even quicker with the newer terminals, that was the time achieved back in 2000), for security and anti-jamming reasons. Anyway, who ever said that each JU can only access one slot at a time?

FYI, Link 16 works in fighter to fighter, air control, surveillance, EW, mission management/weapons coordination, secure voice, navigation, positive friendly identification (IFF) and network management operations and multi-access modes are most defintely possible...
Ok, took one more look on "tadilj.pdf ". They discuss single and multichannel radios and data encryption devices. I'm guessing that you are referring to the 'multichannel' here, right? As far as I understand, the way you transmit in 'micro bursts' has nothing to do with with any radios ability to transmit in 'realtime', rather the opposite. That technique was first used in the second world war if I remember right.

To create those 'bursts' you need to 'prerecord' them first. I believe I said that to get down to a 'three second update' you needed to open four channels and time plan their updates so that you would get one (12 S. update) from each of the four channels making them come in a three seconds interval. On the other hand I'm not sure that's possible yet?

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...d53945c19ecb3b7327e955937aa&tab=core&_cview=0
"Concurrent Multi-Netting (CMN) addresses an operational need to simultaneously participate on multiple Link-16 nets. The CMN objective is to provide a capability to receive on multiple Link-16 nets, up to four, simultaneously, while retaining the capability to transmit on one Link-16 net."

Then you also wrote " Link 16 operates in an enormous number of modes, and can in fact operate them simultaneously. " that made me very interested, even though I, so far, have been unable to confirm it reading the pdf?



Found this though?

" A Tactical digital information link.

A Joint Staff approved, standardized communications link suitable for transmission of digital information. Current practice is to characterize a tactical digital information link (TADIL) by its standardized message formats and transmission characteristics. TADILs interface two or more command and control or weapon systems via a single or multiple network architecture and multiple communication media for exchange of tactical information

e. Army Tactical Data Link 1 (ATDL-1) a secure full-duplex, point-to-
point digital data link utilizing serial transmission frame characteristics and standard message formats at a basic speed of 1200 bits per second. It interconnects tactical air control systems and Army or Marine surface-to-air missile systems f. Interim JTIDS Message Specification (IJMS) a secure high capacity, jam-resistant, nodeless interim message specification that uses the MIL-STD-6016 transmission characteristics and the protocols, conventions, and fixed-length message formats defined by the IJMS. See also Data Link. (Joint Pub 1-02) The transmission characteristics and standards for the TADILs are set forth in the following documents:

TADIL-A = MIL-STD-6011 and MIL-STD-188-203-1A.
TADIL-B = MIL-STD-6011 and MIL-STD-188-212.
TADIL-C = MIL-STD-6004 and MIL-STD-188-203-3.
TADIL-J = MIL-STD-6016.
ATDL-1 = MIL-STD 6013
NATO Link 1 = STANAG 5501 "

---

TADIL J a secure, high capacity, jam-resistant, nodeless data link
which uses the Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS) transmission characteristics and the protocols, conventions, and fixed-length message formats defined by the MIL-STD-6016.

NATO’s equivalent is Link16



"The US system uses a near-real time transmission method whereby data is collected into packets, known as Demand Assigned Multiple Access and it operates via UHF Satcom. This compares with the UK Satellite Tactical Data Link (STDL) which uses real rime Time Division Multiple Access (TDMA) as for Link 16 and transmits at Super High Frequency (SHF) Satcom." with a "Nodeless multi-netting support for up to 127 nets (but practical limit is stated to be 20)."

"With the deployment of S-TADIL J , operational units will have three possible data link paths that can be used to support multi-ship data link coordinated operations. S-TADIL J supports the same levels of surveillance and weapon coordination data exchange provided by Link-11 and Link-16. The TADIL J message standard is implemented on S-TADIL J to provide for the same level of information content as Link-16."

And "Utilising time division architecture, Link 16 JUs have pre-assigned sets of multiple time slots in which to transmit their data and to receive data from other units. The time slots of a net can be parcelled out to one or more Network Participation Group (NPG), which are defined by operational function and by the types of messages that will be transmitted in it"

Sounds like 'Token Ring' to me, a very safe way of communicating, but slow. I haven't been able to find any transmission speed though so there I will trust in what I heard from our own tests, according to those the transmission rate and ability to handle connections still are second to our Swedish solution. Never mind, we will throw it away any way, it seems, just so we too can play Cowboys and Indians with those 'big boys'. in NATO.

What that will have to do with defending my Sweden in case of a sudden attack beats me?
The best trained forces will be outside of Sweden.
The code keys will be in the States ::))
Fook**g brilliant.

Let me guess. A voice from the other side perhaps?
Whispering "No war in our time" ??

But we need to differ between them. Link16 - 11 etc etc comes under TADIL J who is a acronym of a 'high speed' data linking net, but it's definitely not our Swedish Data link. So yes In a way we are very much comparing apples with oranges. That our system is perfectly adapted for our needs and is our equivalent of a central steered AWACS defense doesn't seem to stop our military and political geniuses from exchanging our fifteen year 'new' system for Link16 with its, from my perspective, more limited possibilities, as it's adapted to a more centralized fighting mode..

http://www.synthesys.co.uk/tactical_data_links.htm
http://www.lm-isgs.co.uk/defence/datalinks/satellite.htm

('spoon feeding' Or information? You tell me.)
 
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yoron

New Member
You are right, I was just thinking of it in form of that 'token' being given and taken. The 'principle' of it if you see how I thought, somewhat sloppy :)

Found this though.

"Tactical Digital Information Link-J/NATO LINK-16 (TADIL-J)

Primary Purpose: Using the Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS) equipment provides real-time exchange of tactical digital information between ...major command and control systems... for the United States, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), and allies. Pseudo random frequency hopping on 51 frequencies, encrypted. Frequency hopping rate is one pulse per 13 microseconds. Sub-Functions: Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS).

Equipment Requirements:

Three groups of terminals: JTIDS Class 1 - First generation, single network; JTIDS Class 2 - Second generation, multiple network capability (AN/VRC-107 V 5-7); Multifunction Information Distribution System Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT); Command and Control Processor (C2P)- Navy.

Connectivity Requirements: JTIDS frequency hopped/spread spectrum system requires at least 150 MHz bandwidth (data rate-28.8 Kbps to 238.1 Kbps). UHF (L Band).

Crypto Requirements: KOI-18 KGV-8B, Secure Data Units AN/CYZ-10, Data Transfer Device

Normal Location: Major command and control facilities; surveillance platforms; fighter and intercept aircraft; and air defense units.

Information Managed: Common Operating Picture (COP) and Common Tactical Picture (CTP).

Products Created: Interim JTIDS Message Specifications (IJMS); J Series messages.

Lead Service/Contractor: USAF.

Current Fielding Status: Major theater assets have or are being fielded. Established as the joint standard for future system and platform development. Other TADILs being consolidated into the TADIL-J format. TADIL-J being incorporated into the GCCS COP.

Known Problems: Dispersed (beyond 300 NM) theater-wide operations requires relay capability for extended line of sight (LOS) maneuvers. Program managers developing satellite based TADIL-J capabilities to eliminate this limitation. Additionally, limited distribution of the assets to conduct these operations.

DIICOE Compliance Rating: Not rated.

---------
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Y


Equipment Requirements:

Three groups of terminals: JTIDS Class 1 - First generation, single network; JTIDS Class 2 - Second generation, multiple network capability (AN/VRC-107 V 5-7); Multifunction Information Distribution System Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT); Command and Control Processor (C2P)- Navy.

Connectivity Requirements: JTIDS frequency hopped/spread spectrum system requires at least 150 MHz bandwidth (data rate-28.8 Kbps to 238.1 Kbps). UHF (L Band).

Crypto Requirements: KOI-18 KGV-8B, Secure Data Units AN/CYZ-10, Data Transfer Device

Normal Location: Major command and control facilities; surveillance platforms; fighter and intercept aircraft; and air defense units.

Information Managed: Common Operating Picture (COP) and Common Tactical Picture (CTP).

Products Created: Interim JTIDS Message Specifications (IJMS); J Series messages.

Lead Service/Contractor: USAF.

Current Fielding Status: Major theater assets have or are being fielded. Established as the joint standard for future system and platform development. Other TADILs being consolidated into the TADIL-J format. TADIL-J being incorporated into the GCCS COP.

Known Problems: Dispersed (beyond 300 NM) theater-wide operations requires relay capability for extended line of sight (LOS) maneuvers. Program managers developing satellite based TADIL-J capabilities to eliminate this limitation. Additionally, limited distribution of the assets to conduct these operations.

DIICOE Compliance Rating: Not rated.

---------
Again, there are different versions of Link 16.

VHF, HF and SATCOM Link 16, for obviously very different roles. Link 16 itself refers to the message format (J series messages) and the network control, but the actual mechanism by which they are transmitted and received are by various different radio systems.

The ARC-210 (more commonly known as SINCGARS) is one of the more popular ones...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Again, there are different versions of Link 16.

VHF, HF and SATCOM Link 16, for obviously very different roles. Link 16 itself refers to the message format (J series messages) and the network control, but the actual mechanism by which they are transmitted and received are by various different radio systems.

The ARC-210 (more commonly known as SINCGARS) is one of the more popular ones...

STDL, S-TADIL J, FJ Series and VMF, are also all part of the Link 16 transport family.

As it is Link 16 is already being complimented with a variance upgrade and will be able to operate up to four networks simultaneously, with each on single network able to use different media, as then join up as part of a "Super Network". This has already been tested and will allow any participant on any network able to communicate with any other (even though on different network bearers).

The enhancements to Link 16 and its complimentary version are going to be mounted on the RAN AWD, and AWACs - I was unable to get anything out of LM as to whether it was destined for JSF - but the overall US game plan (and that was at a briefing run by USN last year) was that every asset with a weapons launch capability (air land and sea) would be in a position to manage another assets guided weapons or do the handover).. There are 8 countries on that program already.
 

AndiPandi

New Member
Getting back a bit ontopic:

I wrote an email to SAAB last week asking if the Gripen engine was built to supercruise, or if there was some limitations in how long it could fly Mach 1.2 without afterburner (other than the amount of fuel). I got this reply today:


"Dear Andreas,

Gripen NG, with its F414G engine, can Supercruise without a problem for as long as you have fuel.

Many thanks for your question and for your interest in Gripen

kind regards,


Chris Dover"
 

yoron

New Member
Forget it :)
Got my juices flowing that one ::))

As for what I think of this guy questioning why we should use a link16 without a working secure cryptographic key? Try to do the same in Australia and see if someone questions it :)

And what would USA itself say to such an 'offer'?
 
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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Getting back a bit ontopic:

I wrote an email to SAAB last week asking if the Gripen engine was built to supercruise, or if there was some limitations in how long it could fly Mach 1.2 without afterburner (other than the amount of fuel). I got this reply today:


"Dear Andreas,

Gripen NG, with its F414G engine, can Supercruise without a problem for as long as you have fuel.

Many thanks for your question and for your interest in Gripen

kind regards,


Chris Dover"
I wonder if he'll answer a few more? I posted a few earlier he might be interested in answering...

:D
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Translation. If you could magically refuel the Gripen via teleportation, it could supercruise indefinetly. :D
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Getting back a bit ontopic:

I wrote an email to SAAB last week asking if the Gripen engine was built to supercruise, or if there was some limitations in how long it could fly Mach 1.2 without afterburner (other than the amount of fuel). I got this reply today:


"Dear Andreas,

Gripen NG, with its F414G engine, can Supercruise without a problem for as long as you have fuel.

Many thanks for your question and for your interest in Gripen

kind regards,


Chris Dover"
I was going to be nice and not comment on this, but after Feanor's reply...:D

The response does not address what sort of stores load (if any), that Gripen can supercruise with. Nor is there any mention of what effect supercruising has on aircraft range, etc. In short, it still leaves us without a solid answer on whether or not Gripen has an operationally useful supercruise capability.

-Cheers
 

AndiPandi

New Member
I was going to be nice and not comment on this, but after Feanor's reply...:D

The response does not address what sort of stores load (if any), that Gripen can supercruise with. Nor is there any mention of what effect supercruising has on aircraft range, etc. In short, it still leaves us without a solid answer on whether or not Gripen has an operationally useful supercruise capability.

-Cheers
If the Gripen C/D can fly supersonic with 6 AA-missiles and a droptank without engaging the afterburner we can be sure that the NG can supercruise with 6 AA-missiles without a droptank. Removing the drop tank and adding 20% thrust will more than enough compensate for the extra drag induced by the wider fuselage.

As for the range its easy to calculate since the NGs internal fuel load and the specific fuel consumption are not secret. 3300 kg internal fuel, 80 kg / (KN * h) * 60 kN => something like 40 minutes if I'm not wrong.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I was going to be nice and not comment on this, but after Feanor's reply...:D

The response does not address what sort of stores load (if any), that Gripen can supercruise with. Nor is there any mention of what effect supercruising has on aircraft range, etc. In short, it still leaves us without a solid answer on whether or not Gripen has an operationally useful supercruise capability.

-Cheers
Sorry, I didn't mean to troll. His reply was just so useless that I couldn't resist. :)

EDIT: Andi try replying to him and asking how long it can supercruise with the fuel load and configuration that you describe.
 

AndiPandi

New Member
Sorry, I didn't mean to troll. His reply was just so useless that I couldn't resist. :)

EDIT: Andi try replying to him and asking how long it can supercruise with the fuel load and configuration that you describe.
Well I dont think it was useless since a couple of people in here have questioned the GE-F414s ability to fly Mach 1.2 for longer periods of time, now we know that there are no such limitations and that the fuel load is the limiting factor.

I will reply him and let you know the answer!
 

Scorpion82

New Member
It's interesting that from time to time Sweds and other Gripen fans pop up and claim that TIDLS is so much better than LINK16 and while they know a great deal about the TIDLS they have actually no idea about LINK16 systems such as the MIDS. So from where are these superiority claims based on?

Just something I wrote here about the MIDS some years ago, when the situation was quite equal to the current one.

Quoting myself:
Bascially up to 128 participants can take part in the MIDS/LINK 16 net, each gets a time slot of 7.8125 ms to provide its own data. A host platform can collect all these data fuse them and eventually broadcast them so that all 128 participants and all other aircraft with a compatible datalink working in the right frequency can receive them. It is possible to combine a number of MIDS nets to increase the number of participants or if there are fewer you can increase the transfer rates for each member in the net.

MIDS acts as TACAN and enables relative navigation through transmitted reference points. It is possible to transfer new flight plans, airfield information or FAORs (Fighter Aera Of Responsibility). MIDS ensures a discret voice communication over two secured channels and it is possible to exchange text messages for information spreading or task distribution. MIDS equipped aircraft for example can receive almost complete sensor pictures from AWACS aircraft and other similar platforms or combined information from a number of other allied air, ground and sea assets.
It is additionally possible to link up to 8 aircraft with MIDS. These aircraft can exchange their sensor data (including thos required for passive targeting), position data, engagement status and other data such as fuel or weapon status. It is possible to assign targets for a wingman or to sea which aircraft targets what etc.

Just a short summary of the MIDS capabilities.
 

yoron

New Member
It's interesting that from time to time Sweds and other Gripen fans pop up and claim that TIDLS is so much better than LINK16 and while they know a great deal about the TIDLS they have actually no idea about LINK16 systems such as the MIDS. So from where are these superiority claims based on?

Just something I wrote here about the MIDS some years ago, when the situation was quite equal to the current one.

Quoting myself:

""The US system uses a near-real time transmission method whereby data is collected into packets, known as Demand Assigned Multiple Access and it operates via UHF Satcom. This compares with the UK Satellite Tactical Data Link (STDL) which uses real rime Time Division Multiple Access (TDMA) as for Link 16 and transmits at Super High Frequency (SHF) Satcom."

...With a "Nodeless multi-netting support for up to 127 nets (but practical limit is stated to be 20).""
 

energo

Member
The TIDLS can fuse raw radar data and create a collective track using two or more radars in situations where a single Gripen fighter cant track a target on its own. If you want to do that you need realtime communication of radar data, not every 4th or 12th second...

Two or more Gripens can create a track together using the datalink and by doing so reducing the amount of radar signals emitted compared to what is needed if one radar has to track a target. Doing so will make it harder for the enemy to detect/locate the radars using passive sensors.

Silent AMRAAM shot from one Gripen that get the enemy aircraft position from another Gripen, can a fighter using Link 16 send the position of an enemy every second to its wingman?

Please let me know if Link 16 has any of these capabilities. I am not saying Link 16 cant do that, but I never read/heard anything about it.
Depends on what you exactly mean by "fusing raw radar data" and your operational time frame. Sharing target tracks is integral to Link16 and its capabilities are continuously evolving, but to a certain degree even Link4A equiped USN F-14s and (to a limited extent) F-4Cs shared target data (vector, speed, heading and so forth) with the E-2C Hawkeye as far back as the 1970s. Around 1990, just prior to the first (and few) link16/JTIDS Class 2 deplyoments on USAF F-15s and RAF F-3 Tornados, the F-14 fleet was upgraded with ASW-27C/Link4C terminals providing a four ship fighter-to-fighter link (IFDL), although limited to transmitting data on four targets at time. The F-14s were subsequently upgraded with link16.

However, as far as I know the first operational secure "jam resistant" IFDL was on the JAS37 Viggen ca. 1985, when link16/JTIDS was still in developmental testing. Needless to say the phase at which NATO has adopted fighter Link16 has been slow and - initially - challenged by interoperability, cost and reliability issues as well as a lack of requirement.

B. Bolsøy
Oslo
 
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