Gripen NG supercruzin for a bruzin

caprise

New Member
A little more on AndiPandis answer about "using several radars together". If anyone is interested there is a patent side about it(at least I hope it's the one he's referring to):
Procedure and system for the control of a number of radar units

This invention concerns a procedure for the co-ordination of at least two radar units in order thereby to achieve performance benefits. This invention also concerns a system comprising at least two radar units which are controlled in a co-ordinated way in order thereby to achieve performance benefits.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5920279/description.html

C.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
. AFAIK Link 16 does not have that capability. The only reason for having Link 16 in Gripen is NATO compatibility.
It's more than an issue of NATO compatability.

Approx 4 months ago I attended a briefing on future NCW comms for combat aircraft - the Swedes asked to be included in future developments (and are now part of the Forum). They made it very clear that Link16 and the adjunct application are important for them as their propietary solution is not seen as having a future.

They were offered an invitation to the sessions after an approach by the Norwegians to the Americans.

Link 16 (and indeed its successor) are critical for air land and sea. In fact, the roadmap for Link16 and Link22 is for air land and sea integration - something that Link 16 already does, and something which the existing Gripen hand off and localised CES system does not do.

The Swedes have been quite forthright in stating that propietary solutions are not viable - and hence their desire to get involved in the 2014 roadmap.

They've been busily signing MOU Tech agreements with a number of US allies (and not all NATO) to ensure that they stay in the game.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
And in any case sweden is free to transfer whatever technology they want whereas the US is not. Oh and there are no obtuse strings attatched.

Thats clearly not so. One of the major problems Australia had with Sweden earlier was that they refused to supply parts when we were in a military conflict. It's why there was (and is) some clear resistance to buying some Swedish solutions because we don't want to be held hostage.

OTOH, for Australia, the experience is opposite with the US, they haven't and don't deny us access, and in fact they elevated our access to technology levels last year to the highest status. Aust along with the UK gets access to tier 1 tech.

I'd just point out that some Swedish companies have been purchased by US parent companies (and I deal with Swedish companies for my work). This has happened because the US companies are bound by ITARS agreements on some capability. They've been buying Swedish companies because ITARS won't apply, and then they can use the Swedish tech to get a footprint, or get access to the market. In a number of cases I deal with, the US companies have pumped much needed money into Swedish development as the Swedes have recognised that their market is not expanding - some in here (swedish nationals) might be a little bit surprised at how active the US/Sweden relationship is.

When the Swedish defence minister made a recent announcement about huge changes coming - he was thinking about more than SAAB.....


Sweden is in the forum group to replace Link16. Its an invite only development partnership. They're in there for a reason.
 

yoron

New Member
It's more than an issue of NATO compatability.

They made it very clear that Link16 and the adjunct application are important for them as their proprietary solution is not seen as having a future.

They were offered an invitation to the sessions after an approach by the Norwegians to the Americans. The Swedes have been quite forthright in stating that propietary solutions are not viable - and hence their desire to get involved in the 2014 roadmap.

They've been busily signing MOU Tech agreements with a number of US allies (and not all NATO) to ensure that they stay in the game.
GF, what we are doing is adapting to the Nato standard, that doesn't say a thing about which linking system is the best. Ours are as you state a proprietary solution created under fifteen years. NATO won't use it as they already is trying to create their own, not as flexible and tested as ours, but, 'their own'. Don't for a second imagine that we won't use our own equipment. But if we want to be able to communicate with Nato aircrafts we will have to adapt it to bring you in too.

Our DataLink A have capabilities no other system have yet. And as I stated before, have been tested out by us through fifteen years of use. In our linksystem we have a true 'Internet' with true 'peer to peer' properties. If you look up why the Internet is constructed as it is, it was once to be able to withstand a atomic war, a long time ago. That's what we have in the air, neither the Americans nor Nato have this,

I would be very surprised if we are going away from this 'network solution'. It would be like closing down the Internet and then try to steer it through a 'centralized' solution, you can ask any network technician if they would see such a solution as a welcome one, well except for the Chinese maybe :) And some few others. Our Datalinking is extremly redundant, impossible to jam (as we see it) if you don't use EMPbombs, but if so all electronic aircraft systems, depending on the EMP:s relative strength, might go down.
Only Swedish: http://www.swaf.se/fpl39/svenska/radio.php

As for being surprised over Swedish/US relations?
Why would I be that. Our SIGINT have worked with the US since world war two and perhaps before that too. We like the American dream, although we want some 'common sense' too, not only rampaging Egotism :) As I said we're rather levelheaded, although I prefer the Australian dream myself ::))
It seems a little more individual if I may say so..
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That's what we have in the air, neither the Americans nor Nato have this,
Thats incorrect. Again, part of what I do for a job is dealing with these technologies.

The Swedes have made it quite clear that they don't have the same capability. Growlers, and even Typhoons have demonstrated the capability.

Where a significant number of people get it wrong is also with respect to F-22. The F-22 operates doctrinally and operationaly with an internal peer to peer network, it can read back Link16 but does not reach out as it would breach platform LO gates. In fact, most public comment I've seen re Typhoon, Shornet and F-22 comms warfighting is a nonsense. (its enthusiastic but horribly short on fact)

The swedes have a capability - but its not unique. Others have done and are doing the same.

Swedens place at the comms table in the last 12-24 months is not because they want to sit with NATO - they're being pragmatic.
 

yoron

New Member
Thats incorrect. Again, part of what I do for a job is dealing with these technologies.

The Swedes have made it quite clear that they don't have the same capability. Growlers, and even Typhoons have demonstrated the capability.

Where a significant number of people get it wrong is also with respect to F-22. The F-22 operates doctrinally and operationaly with an internal peer to peer network, it can read back Link16 but does not reach out as it would breach platform LO gates. In fact, most public comment I've seen re Typhoon, Shornet and F-22 comms warfighting is a nonsense. (its enthusiastic but horribly short on fact)

The swedes have a capability - but its not unique. Others have done and are doing the same. Swedens place at the comms table in the last 12-24 months is not because they want to sit with NATO - they're being pragmatic.
No disrespect meant here GF, but there we will agree to disagree I think. I agree to that Link16 have peer to peer cappabilities but I doubt it is as flexible as our Data linking. Here is a Swedish description of JTIDS and TARAS from 2002. http://www.annalindhbiblioteket.se/publikationer/uppsatser/2002/chpt0002/hagenbo_2050.pdf It gives you an idea how it is thought to work.

For those of you able to read it, it is cool reading, Link16 is not near our TILDS according to what I've heard.

TIDLS (datalink)

One Gripen can provide radar sensing for four of its colleagues, allowing a single fighter to track a target, while the others use the data for a stealthy attack. TIDLS also permits multiple fighters to quickly and accurately lock onto a target's track through triangulation from several radars; or allows one fighter to jam a target while another tracks it; or allows multiple fighters to use different radar frequencies collaboratively to "burn through" jamming transmissions. TIDLS also gives the Gripen transparent access to the SAAB-Ericsson 340B Erieye "mini-AWACs" aircraft, as well as the overall ground command and control system. This system provides Sweden with an impressive defensive capability at a cost that, though still high, is less than that of comparable systems elsewhere.

TIDLS can connect up to four aircraft in a full-time two-way link. It has a range of 500 km and is highly resistant to jamming; almost the only way to jam the system is to position a jammer aircraft directly between the two communicating Gripens. Its basic modes include the ability to display the position, bearing, and speed of all four aircraft in a formation, including basic status information such as fuel and weapons state. The TIDLS is fundamentally different from broadcast-style links like Link 16. It serves fewer users but links them more closely together, exchanging much more data, and operating much closer to real time.

TIDLS information, along with radar, EW, and mapping data, appears on the central MFD. The display reflects complete sensor fusion: a target that is being tracked by multiple sources is one target on the screen. Detailed symbols distinguish between friendlies, hostiles, and unidentified targets and show who has targeted whom.

Today, Sweden is the only country that is flying with a link of this kind.
The Flygvapnet has already proven some of the tactical advantages of the link, including the ability to spread the formation over a much wider area. Visual contact between the fighters is no longer necessary, because the datalink shows the position of each aircraft. Leader and wingman roles are different: the pilot in the best position makes the attack, and the fact that he has targeted the enemy is immediately communicated to the three other aircraft.

A basic use of the datalink is "silent attack." An adversary may be aware that he is being tracked by a fighter radar that is outside missile range. He may not be aware that another, closer fighter is receiving that tracking data and is preparing for a missile launch without using its own radar. After launch, the shooter can break and escape, while the other fighter continues to pass tracking data to the missile. In tests, Gripen pilots have learned that this makes it possible to delay using the AMRAAM's active seeker until it is too late for the target to respond.

But the use of the link goes beyond this, towards what the Swedish Air Force calls "samverkan," or close-cooperation. One example is the use of the Ericsson PS-05/A radar with TIDLS. An Ericsson paper compares its application, with identical sensors and precise knowledge of the location of both platforms, to human twins: "Communication is possible without explaining everything."

"Radar-samverkan," the Ericsson paper suggests, equips the formation with a super-radar of extraordinary capabilities. The PS-05/A can operate in passive mode, as a sensitive receiver with high directional accuracy (due to its large antenna). Two PS-05/As can exchange information by datalink and locate the target by triangulation. The target's signals will often identify it as well.

The datalink results in better tracking. Usually, three plots (echoes) are needed to track a target in track-while-scan mode. The datalink allows the radars to share plots, not just tracks, so even if none of the aircraft in a formation gets enough plots on its own to track the target, they may do so collectively.

Each radar plot includes Doppler velocity, which provides the individual aircraft with range-rate data. However, this data on its own does not yield the velocity of the target. Using the TIDLS, two fighters can take simultaneous range-rate readings and thereby determine the target's track instantly, reducing the need for radar transmission.

In ECM applications, one fighter can search, while the wingman simultaneously focuses jamming on the same target, using the radar. This makes it very difficult for the target to intercept or jam the radar that is tracking him. Another anti-jamming technique is for all four radars to illuminate the same target simultaneously at different frequencies.

-------End----------------------

Can you see why I call it a 3D sphere wihout any Airborne Warning and Control System involved. Everything we have, on land, sea, in the air and space are connected into one huge 'peer to peer' network. And its redundancy becomes multiplied for each unit coming into it, just like Internet.

So its real sad that the Norwegians found JSF the 'better' choice for them. As every incoming unit strengthen it more than just by a factor one.
 
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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
N
This system provides Sweden with an impressive defensive capability at a cost that, though still high, is less than that of comparable systems elsewhere.
Do you believe your own link or not? It says in black and white that your data-link system is not superior in capability to other systems, only in cost.

What other in-flight data-link systems are they talking about?

:rolleyes:
 

yoron

New Member
Do you believe your own link or not? It says in black and white that your data-link system is not superior in capability to other systems, only in cost.

What other in-flight data-link systems are they talking about?

:rolleyes:
If you want to prove your case, why don't you 'link me up scotty' :)
Instead of acting all 'superior' on me, why don't you just show me the comparable qualities of Link16? I'm only delivering facts. I'm just the 'messenger' friend. I said that I found our DataLink to be the best, and this description gives you a hint why I think so, and there is more to it, don't think RS military give it all 'away' on the Internet :)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If you want to prove your case, why don't you 'link me up scotty' :)
Instead of acting all 'superior' on me, why don't you just show me the comparable qualities of Link16? I'm only delivering facts. I'm just the 'messenger' friend. I said that I found our DataLink to be the best, and this description gives you a hint why I think so, and there is more to it, don't think RS military give it all 'away' on the Internet :)
The Swedish Air Force and Govt also don't think so. They've clearly indicated that there are no economies of scale in using an indigenous system. hence they're now active in a number of EW and Comms programs with the US and principal allies. I'm on 2 programs where the Swedish have participation and yet I've seen nothing in the open media (eg internet)

Link 16 already provides multi-service interconnects. Air (Orion ASW and Orion ELINT, Shornet sans Hornet sans JSF), Land (Arty and MBT's) and Naval (Air Warfare Destroyers)

It's replacement program is dealing with gigabit data transfer rates and involving space command assets. The Swedes asked to be part of that as they have nothing as capable and they can't afford to do it on their own.

I think you'll find that the next swedish white paper will clearly start spelling out that indigenous development is a thing of the past. Sweden can't afford the economies of scale cost imposition. They've done well with Gripen (esp when you factor in Rafale) but to sell more product, they're looking at interoperability and compliance - and that eventually means self imposed interoperability and compliance for internal efficiencies.

You would be surprised at how many Swedish companies are badged as Swedish but now have US majority or significant US holdings.

This whole issue is beyond the "my technology - your technology" debate.
 

yoron

New Member
Maybe so GF, nothing is impossible, We will see. My view though, is that however much we are adapting our Linking capabilities we would be fools not to keep what we already have working for us. But I agree that they are two technological solutions although, I believe we already are fixing that 'problem'. The first Swedish paper discuss this problem with different Linking technologies and suggests solutions. We will adapt, not dismantle our technology. But it's a pleasure discussing with you.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
We will adapt, not dismantle our technology. But it's a pleasure discussing with you.
No doubt and ditto.

But, I'm taking long bets on the Swedish Def Forces moving more and more towards NATO compliance and interoperability.

If not, then they are wasting their time on these current US programs. :) I can't see that happening as the Norwegians, Danes and Finns "batted" for them.

The shape of the alliance is shifting...
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I want to know if the F-35 will be able to maneuver like the F-15 or F-16. Yeah its a 9G fighter but thats only one small part, what about AoA and will the F-35 be able to do the areal combat maneuvers that the F-15 and F-16 can do? I hope so...
It won't need to. It's been explained many times that the EO-DAS in combination with advanced, datalinked, thrust-vectoring missiles means that the F-35 can fire off a shot, and then exit the fight, letting the missile (and the enemy fighter jet) do the manouevering.
 

AndiPandi

New Member
It's more than an issue of NATO compatability.
...
They made it very clear that Link16 and the adjunct application are important for them as their propietary solution is not seen as having a future.
Because if Sweden has a system of their own they cant operate or excercis with NATO countries, NATO compatability is the only reason Sweden gave up TARAS/Ra90, which was scrapped before it was fully developed.

TIDLS is a different system with different capabilities and it is used together with Link 16, and it will be used for many years to come since its has capabilities that Link16 does not have.
 

yoron

New Member
Because if Sweden has a system of their own they cant operate or excercis with NATO countries, NATO compatability is the only reason Sweden gave up TARAS/Ra90, which was scrapped before it was fully developed.

TIDLS is a different system with different capabilities and it is used together with Link 16, and it will be used for many years to come since its has capabilities that Link16 does not have.
You seem to know quite a bit about both systems, Is there anything you see, some ability that we 'lost', so to speak, moving from TARAS/Ra90, too TIDLS? Just out of my everlasting curiosity AP?

---
Isn't Taras our digital Radio and Datasystem?
Working on2 x ARC-232 UHF/VHF Radio
And TIDL our digital Tactical Information Data Link System
I thought we had them working together??

Would it be Taras Link!6 will replace?
Of course it would :)

Sorry AP, to many acronyms for me.
Working to much, sleeping to little.
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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
If you want to prove your case, why don't you 'link me up scotty' :)
Instead of acting all 'superior' on me, why don't you just show me the comparable qualities of Link16? I'm only delivering facts. I'm just the 'messenger' friend. I said that I found our DataLink to be the best, and this description gives you a hint why I think so, and there is more to it, don't think RS military give it all 'away' on the Internet :)
Your own links are doing a good enough job thanks.

As I asked earlier, do you believe in the facts you are delivering or NOT?
 

yoron

New Member
AD, you seem deadbeat on believing that Gripen can't do, what I believe it to do at a daily basis :) That's yours. as well as the others prerogative. And I'm not going into a pis***ng contest about that. The question asked was if Gripen could 'supercruise', it can. Apart from that there is the discussion, why I look at Gripens Datalink as being 'special'. and that too I feel have got its explanation with the 'quotes' about TIDLS. If you now are looking for other ways to 'discuss' the links I've shown then you are welcome to it.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
If you want to prove your case, why don't you 'link me up scotty' :)
Fair enough.

Let's talk about the Gripen NG and it's supercruising potential, eh?

The F414 is the biggest change. I think most would agree on that. It offers substantially more thrust than the RM12, however it is not designed to provide a supercruising capability, nor a particularly great thrust output, seeking reliability and increased thrust only to counter increased airframe weight, empty and with payload, on the F/A-18E/F it was designed for.

So some have speculated on this very thread, that it will be modified to be more suitable for this mystical and yet largely glossed over in all marketing material, supercruising capability...

SAAB disagrees though:

Surprisingly he said that the future Gripen NG will cost even less than the aircraft's generation C / D, by making greater use of electronic technologies COTS (civilian technologies harnessed for military use - Conventional Off The Shelf) and, especially, by employing the engine GE F-414 American standard, unlike the previous Gripen, he used an improved version of Volvo Aero turbine GE F-404. Using the new engine will reduce by 20% the cost of motorization.
http://www.alide.com.br/joomla/index.php/component/content/article/36-noticias/163-gripenbsb-pt2

For those who doubted the load I was talking about earlier, here it is:

http://i34.tinypic.com/r292lx.jpg

Except the Gripen NG is going to have an EXTRA 2 pylons, one of which will be mounted forward of the centreline pylons to carry a Litening pod.

In addition, here is the complete list of airframe modifications that have been made:

1. Internal engine bay redesigned to fit larger F414 engine. Engine is also mounted higher than previous RM12.

2. Air channel feeding the engine has been redesigned due to higher mounting of engine and need for greater airflow mass for higher thrust engine.

3. Air intakes have been widened approximately 1 inch per intake, to accomodate greater airflow requirements.

4. Main landing gear is no longer attached to the fuselage, but rather the wing root. New housings under the wing, contain the main landing gear. Wing has been slightly modified to accomodate this.

5. 2x additional hardpoints have been mounted on the fuselage, straddling the existing centreline hardpoint.

6. To gain the full range benefits outlined by SAAB in it's response to the Netherlands MoD, new large 450 US gallon external fuel tanks are required to be carried.

http://www.gripen.com/NR/rdonlyres/...B42B761A7F9/0/GripenNewsDemo_080414_final.pdf

Therefore:

1. Drag will be significantly increased by wider air intakes, larger external fuel tanks, and protruding underwing housing for landing gear.

2. The aircraft is heavier, both empty and with expected payload than the C/D models.

3. Significant stores separation testing WILL need to be covered, because of the additional hardpoints and large fuel tanks. (Funnily enough, no-one is overly thrilled with large stores colliding with even larger fuel tanks after launch...) :)

New engine, new intake design, re-designed wing, additional hardpoints, new protruding underwing housings for landing gear, new weapons load configuration and separation patterns and new external fuel tanks.

Nah, that won't require much flight testing either...
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
AD, you seem deadbeat on believing that Gripen can't do, what I believe it to do at a daily basis :) That's yours. as well as the others prerogative. And I'm not going into a pis***ng contest about that. The question asked was if Gripen could 'supercruise', it can. Apart from that there is the discussion, why I look at Gripens Datalink as being 'special'. and that too I feel have got its explanation with the 'quotes' about TIDLS. If you now are looking for other ways to 'discuss' the links I've shown then you are welcome to it.
I'm not interested in a supercruise capability that can't be used operationally or can only be used minimally at best and that's why I dig my heels in at the rather more ridiculous claims made.

I'm not particularly interested in p**sing contests either, but if you are going to make claims that are difficult to comprehend, I'm going to continue to call you and others out on them.

So far, despite the claim we have established that:

1. You and others have claimed a capability advantage for the Gripen, because of it's alleged supercruise capability.

2. However not one of you can explain even the most basic terms of HOW this translates into the alleged capability advantage.

3. You can't explain over what distance the Gripen can achieve this capability, nor conversly what happens to it's fuel load, combat radius or time on station if it WERE to do so.

4. You can't explain with what external load configurations being carried the Gripen can achieve this.

5. You can't explain whether or not the Gripen requires afterburner to achieve supersonic speeds in the first instance, or whether it has sufficient thrust on dry power, throughout the envelope to accelerate to M1.2 or greater and then cruise at that point.

6. Besides the comment of "28,000 feet" for the Gripen Demo achieving M1.2, you cannot explain at what altitudes the Gripen can achieve this capability.

So, not being able to explain anything much about why this provides a capability to the Gripen, what is it, that supports your belief so strongly, besides the extremely ill-defined say-so of SAAB?
 

yoron

New Member
Let us take it in small doses :)

First, I don't think Gripen will be able to supercruise in all its congigurations (payloads) But as it could do a A2A in Grioen's first generations I fully expect it to be able to repeat that feat. And MACH 1.2 seems reasonable to me, It should also be a balance between speed and what fuel consumption it craves. And Im not sure if SAAB is planning on redesigning, or already have redesigned the F414, They did it with the RM12.

As for the weight you are correct. Ca 200kg more 'empty weight', the rest will be fuel as they state it to load up 140 % of the Gripen C/D. Also it will load 2000 KG more than the C/D. So depending on what mission it will be supposed to do it will be heavier. Weighting against that is the new engine that will be over 22000 Lbs as compared to Gripens former RM12 at 18000 Lbs.

You are correct in that it is going to be fully tested. Gripen has among the least crashes in the world as I understands it, they wont let that slip through their fingers, As for drag we can only guess, my guess though is that it's negligible as they have had a long time to prepare for the rebuild..

For the rest we do have two interpretations AD, I understand it one way you another, here is the full qoute from http://www.gripen.com/NR/rdonlyres/FE463B06-8C9B-4A49-A382-999C6AF1E53B/0/gripen_news_2001_01.pdf page two. From the first generation Gripen again. To me this is pretty clear reading, but not to you. So be it.

"
There was one interesting problem,” Colonel Eldh concludes with a smile. “Gripen is supersonic at all altitudes and can cruise supersonically with an external load including fuel tank, four AMRAAM and two sidewinder missiles without the need to engage the afterburner..

In the early days of operations, we found some pilots inadvertently flying supersonic over populated areas. The problem was one of habit, as these pilots had their throttle settings as high as on the older-generation fighters that Gripen replaced.

It is fair to say there were a few startled people on the ground, as their day-to-day work, or perhaps sleep, was disturbed by unexpected sonic booms! It was, of course, a simple task to solve the problem – the throttles were re-set and everyone was happy. ”

I suggest we let the discussion rest a while to see what more tests will be done on the Gripen Demo.
 
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AndiPandi

New Member
...
Isn't Taras our digital Radio and Datasystem?
Working on2 x ARC-232 UHF/VHF Radio
And TIDL our digital Tactical Information Data Link System
I thought we had them working together??
TARAS is not used at all, since it was aborted before it was finished.
The only Gripens that can communicate with ground stations in a secure way are the A/Bs but in a nere future SWAF will stop using them. It was recently decided that Link16 will be the system to use in the C/Ds. The problem with Link 16 for Sweden is that we are not allowed to use our own crypto keys and we cant use all the functions either, since we are not in NATO.

TIDLS are used between Gripen fighters and from the ground to the fighters.
 
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