Greece to upgrade its S-300s to S-400s

vivtho

New Member
The Damocles targeting pod must be good it's rare for most countries to use outside systems but it is done. The US Coast Guard uses French helicopters right I'm sure done. I thought Russia had a "Cold War" law that stated only Russian made products or equipment can be used on Russian aircraft? I wanted to know if this is true or is my friend breaking my chops? Does anybody know, thankshttp://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
Talking
I don't know if it was a <B>law</B>, but the only foreign equipment the USSR used came from the Warsaw Pact. The L-29 Delfin and the L-39 Albatros are two examples that come to mind. The type of 'foreign' content used was formalized in some cases. For example, I believe that it was official policy that light aircraft for liaison etc were to be built in Czechslovakia.



Coming back to the topic at hand, the strength of the Russian aircraft industry has always been in the aircraft and not in it's avionics. Virtually every customer who can afford it, installs Western/Israeli avionics in their Russian purchases. This is a step in the right direction. Expect it to have a positive impact on future sales.
 

Viktor

New Member
I think all SAM systems have flaws or can be beaten just look at Syria or really any war in the last 10/15 years and your see Russian SAMs are beatable. A lot of the ways SAMs are beaten will not be released to the public. Syria has the Thor which is a pretty modern system yet did little I don't think it's a exact science yet.
Syria does not have tor missile system not Pancir-S1 yet. Oll it has is SAM systems from cave like time and not one single modern surface to air system.
 

Viktor

New Member
Can the Mig-31 launch missiles at those high speeds?

Yes it can.

Remember Russians where the first to use low drag bombs to perform bombing at Mach 2.35 at 25 000m atitude with its MIG-25RB


And are the missiles you mentioned with those 300k ranges even in production yet?
Yes they are production. R-33S (R-33 is even in reserves as has being writen off) R-37M is in air-to-air missile production and K-100-S1 400km range based on S-300V missile 8M83 is being entered in production.



Viktor this modernization seems ongoing and not a finished product?

40 of MIG-31B has being modernized to MIG-31BM standard while development of most modern M2 modernization has being finished last year and all of them will be modernized as they will make most potent interceptor and BVR fighter in RUAF.


Not to bash the Mig-31 but is there funding for this?
210 Bin has being aproved for modernization program by 2015 so figure for yourself.


It's a huge heavy aircraft built on a 30year old design that can be seen on radar from very far distances . Sure it can fly fast and straight but in modern combat this aircraft is dated. Its difficult for missiles to hit a fighter size aircraft from 100 miles away doesn't seem odd that Russia would state such long ranges?
Do you know what amount of effort and planing was needed to even try to succesfully intercept MIG-25. No matter its adge this 50% fighter build from titanium is still untachable for todays BVR missiles... coss no one can catch him except fired at him from very close randge and none of thodays fighter except raptor has chanche to get him so close. In first gulf war 10 AIM-54 fired at MIG-25 failed to catchim and Israelis where forced to make aircraft traps to lure MIG-25 for a kill. Painstacking job.

Im telling you that fighter is second most capable BVR fighter in the world.


Russia would be better served by standardization huge Flankers fleets for this purpose it would save on training, equipment, parts, weapons, kind of the way the US uses there F-16, I realize a Mig-31 and a Viper aren't in the same class I'm just using it as an example. By using Flankers even different models would allow Russia Air Force to get better because a more standard level of training could be used across the board.
Russia being the biggest country in the world has hudge radar gaps witch only MIG-31 can cover and that was its only design purpose.



Russia only puts these wonder engines in old Mig-31s, it doesn't seem right to me. Wouldn't Russia use some of the this "high tech" on modern Flankers if some of the numbers you quoted real?
Flankers are made from different design specifications ... I suggest you compare fuell load and engine dimensions from MIG-31 to those of Su-27 and you will get right perspective.


Wouldn't have China requested these wonder Mig-31s to go far out and strike US carries or build some of the tech into there Flankers for the same purpose?
For long time MIG-31 had no ground or naval atack capability only with the introduction of MIG-31F and MIG-31BM variants where those avaible.
More to it Russia would only sold to China MIG-31E (export) variant witch is so mutch less capable than even basic MIG-31B that it is an insult to even consider it as a buy... thats why Flankers where bought.


It would serve Russia better building tech like this into a modern air frame like the Su-34 type and not 30 year old aviation fuel haulers that can only fly fast and straight.

MIG-31 will be retired once PAK-FA starts entering service in numbers as for now nothing can replace them. They have no price.
Comparing interceptor to a tactical bomber ... I dont follow your logic.


High end Flankers have powerful radar's and can carry what 10, 11, or maybe 12 missiles seems like a perfect interceptor to me and can fight and turn if they have too.
Flankers can carry only R-77 BVR missiles. MIG-31 can R-37M, R-33S, R-77 and in a while K-100-S1 so figure it for yourself.

Yust remember even basic MIG-31 can spend as mutch time on Mach 3 as Flanker can be on its afterburners .... not to mention its cruising speed , atitude etc etc ...You can basicly fly at Mach 2.35 at 25 000m and rain down 300km missiles from above and make a safe run....


I think it's old thinking and Russia could do better then maintaining a few regiments of Mig-31s. It's like a big huge boxer throwing a punch I'm going to move out of the way and hit back 99% of the time unless I'm a old B-52

Why stick it to B-52.. thise monsters are perfectly able to intercept SR-71 and as well as B-1 and B-2 guided by theirs EW radars.
 

Viktor

New Member
Coming back to the topic at hand, the strength of the Russian aircraft industry has always been in the aircraft and not in it's avionics. Virtually every customer who can afford it, installs Western/Israeli avionics in their Russian purchases. This is a step in the right direction. Expect it to have a positive impact on future sales.
India is in its Su-30MKI Batch 3 instaling only Russian avionics ... not a trace from Israel or French. And for you information about its avionics check out new Su-35.
 

Viktor

New Member
Viktor I stand corrected Syria doesn't have modern SAMs you were right and according to this site I just found it backs up your statement. Pretty interesting stuff listed.

The Syrian SAM Network
http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/09/syrian-sam-network.html

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Wink

Never mind ... we learn as long as we live ..I myself tought for a wille Syria has respective airdefence network.

Syria ordered Pancir-S1 but did not get them yet.
 

eliaslar

New Member
Can we compare a NATO system and a Russian made system only from it's technical details? The answer is no. There is no comparison between such systems, just a comparison of their technical details.
How many times in the recent future has very modern Russian systems cofronted with NATO ones? I don't think that this happened so many times. Even during NATO bombings on Serbia, Serbia didn't have extremely modern equipment and even with the equipment it had at that time it shot down an F-117, even with a lot of luck.
A SAM is a SAM and no matter how old it is, it's always a danger.
I also want to mention that Greece, as already pointed in this topic, has S-300 and during this year it will make a launch in Crete. A Russian made system is fully operational and compatible with NATO standards, just like the Mig-29's used by Luftwaffe.
 

flyer19999

New Member
Greece to upgrade its S-300 to S-400's

Probably a good move by Greece because so many countries have the S-300 I'm sure the system has been exploited and its weakness countered. The USA bought an S-300 system for exploitation and probably knows all the weakness of the system and probably has developed countermeasures against it. Since the USA and Israel are close allies I'm sure Israel has this information too.
 
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