German navy flagship Gorch Fock propably complete loss
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t68
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Well the simplest answer to the question is, has the German Government put in a request for the Eagle and what was the reply?
If Germany wanted her so badly the USCG should look to see the cost on a new build to their requirements plus 10% contingency funding, well that would be my minimum price.
when the PCU(NUSHIP) Eagle is ready then you can have her , oh money up front please cash or card
If Germany wanted her so badly the USCG should look to see the cost on a new build to their requirements plus 10% contingency funding, well that would be my minimum price.
when the PCU(NUSHIP) Eagle is ready then you can have her , oh money up front please cash or card
Thüringer
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- #23
As i said, the decission here is made end january and beginning february. The repatriation of the Eagle was brought up by an Admiral here.
I´m sure decission makers will look into this and start a formal request once a decission is made.
I believe negotiations would be done by our defense ministry and in many such cases its not even about money at all.
The problem with the idea of repatriating the USCGC Eagle, or indeed the NRP Sagres, is that these ships are as old as the ships they would replace. If the two ships in Germany have reached the end of their service lives, then surely the remaining ships in class can’t be far behind.
So a new build is most sensible.
In fact, why not lay down five hulls? One for the Gorch Folk III, three more to donate to Romania, the USA and Portugal to replace the existing ships, and one to donate to Australia for training ship with the Border force marine unit. This would be a grand act of good will between nations and gain much international approval for Germany and Germans.
Just don’t tell the Kiwis or Cunucks about the ship for Australia or they will want one too.
So a new build is most sensible.
In fact, why not lay down five hulls? One for the Gorch Folk III, three more to donate to Romania, the USA and Portugal to replace the existing ships, and one to donate to Australia for training ship with the Border force marine unit. This would be a grand act of good will between nations and gain much international approval for Germany and Germans.
Just don’t tell the Kiwis or Cunucks about the ship for Australia or they will want one too.
Just confirm that beacause a mistake was made in maintaining this ship - swapping steel for lead - and in turn setting up some sort of catalytic reaction or similar - which is completely unconnected with the United States, and as a result you want the USCG to give up their well maintained ship?
Thüringer
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- #26
No,
we want purchase a replacement since our flagship and sail training ship is basicly destroyed.
The "Eagle" is her sistership and would be the best option to replace her.
She obviously has to be replaced, or do you think Germany will stay without flagship?
Thüringer
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- #28
The Gorch Fock is broken because a maintenance mistake, not because age. Someone placed lead in her ballast tanks and this caused extreme corrossion.
As for donating ships...any german politician suggesting this would be put in tar and feathered for throwing away german property. Even more so when nothing is given in return with equal value.
Thüringer
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- #29
I think it depends what this so called "alliance" between Germany and USA still is worth.
The repatriation of the Eagle was brought up from an Admiral. If our leaders follow that idea, an official proposal will be made. Then its on USA to decide if they want help or not.
Ah, I see. Well, wouldn’t it be safer to leave those foriegn owned ships where they are, least they suffer another maintenance mistake?
Don’t be so quick to dismiss acts of goodwill. The gratitude of the receiving nations is something of inestimable value. Such an act would greatly improve German’s standing among those nations.
But, if we had to give something back to get a nice German built tall ship, what about that WWI tank captured by Australian soldiers?
Mephisto – rarest tank in the world | The Australian War Memorial
Thüringer
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- #31
Such mistakes can happen anywhere. I think we are known to be very good in engineering and maintenance. That this happened was a freak mistake. Nobody knows who did this. Maybe an apprentice placed those lead parts there. In retrospect its hard to say.
As for good will gestures, i think nobody in Germany wants that. The general perception here is, that somehow all want something but never give something.
I cant remember any "good will" gesture of Australia or any other country towards us.
Giving away Ships would be political suicide here, even more so since we dont have any connection with Australia and so on.
Also getting an old WW I tank for a ship seems not a good deal for me.
The price tag they said for a new build ship would be around 200 million €.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Honestly, the way you have presented this so far, it does seem as though you want something (the USCGC Eagle) for nothing, since apart from saying that money is no object, you have never addressed any issues caused by the lack of a sail training ship except for Germany. If a decision was made to decommission and replace the USCGC Eagle today, it would be several years before her replacement would be ready to assume the active duty roles that the Eagle currently fills.Such mistakes can happen anywhere. I think we are known to be very good in engineering and maintenance. That this happened was a freak mistake. Nobody knows who did this. Maybe an apprentice placed those lead parts there. In retrospect its hard to say.
As for good will gestures, i think nobody in Germany wants that. The general perception here is, that somehow all want something but never give something.
I cant remember any "good will" gesture of Australia or any other country towards us.
Giving away Ships would be political suicide here, even more so since we dont have any connection with Australia and so on.
Also getting an old WW I tank for a ship seems not a good deal for me.
The price tag they said for a new build ship would be around 200 million €.
That is essentially the same case Germany is looking at now though I am not certain it would take 15 years, if I had to guess I would estimate at least seven years, possibly more. What that in turn would mean is that Germany would need to figure out a scheme to provide the currently unavailable sail training role for several years until whatever sail training vessel is acquired as the replacement, or Germany could opt to do without a sail training programme. You seem to be advocating a third type of option, which would be for Germany to get a currently active sail training vessel in use by one of the branches of the US armed forces, and leave it to the US/US Coast Guard to figure out how they will manage to replace the vessel you seem to feel should go back to Germany, as well as figuring out how the USCG would manage a sail training programme for officer candidates while a replacement for Eagle is being either built or purchased. In a nutshell, it seems like you feel the US should be willing to suffer a training capability loss, so that Germany does not have suffer the exact same type of loss, all because the US and Germany are allies.
I, and most likely others, would find the idea of being "allies" as a less than compelling reason why US officers should be less trained and prepared for a period of several years while a replacement for Eagle would be getting worked out. That also is not even touching on the optics, perceptions and realpolitiks of German resourcing of their armed forces, or the return of a former Kriegsmarine vessel named for a member of the SA, taken as war reparations and still on active duty with a branch of the US armed forces. As a side note, even if one (the Executive) branch of the US gov't were willing to go along with this, it would still require consent and approval from at least a second branch (the Legislature, specifically the Senate) and quite possibly the third (Judicial) branch, since I could easily see a number of groups filing legal challenges to such a scheme.
Who said 15 years? Enough time to get a new ship built (perhaps re-using the salvageable parts of Gorch Fock: everything except the hull?) would do.
Gorch Fock was ordered in 1957 & commissioned in 1958, based on the plans of the original Gorch Fock, with slight modifications. Do the same again.
Expecting the Americans to give up their sail training ship because the German Navy blundered is utterly unreasonable. It's Germany's mistake, & for Germany to put right. This insistence on needing an old ship is illogical. In the 1950s, Germany built a new ship. In the 1930s, Germany built new ships. Why should Germany not build a new ship now?
Yet you want the USCG to donate a ship to Germany? Riiiiight.
And the demise of the Foch was cause largely by dockyard incompetency? I can see why you don't want to build a new vessel in Germany; I wouldn't either.
oldsig
Clearly a joke. Mephisto is going nowhere; it's worth more than a tall ship, especially one built by a dodgy shipbuilder
oldsig
Thüringer
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- #36
No need to get rude.
German shipbuilding is worldclass. Calling Blohm&Voss dodgy ... i dont even know what to say about that.
As for this rather worthless tank. What makes you believe Germany has the slightest interest in getting this?
So far i did not even know this tank existed, it propably holds great value for Australians but is totally worthless and unknown for Germans.
You can rest assured that Germany would not even take it, even when you add money on it.
This sounds like Egypt here that wants the statue of a old egyptian queen back from us since years. They then came up and said, if we give their statue back, they give us something formerly owned by Rommel in return. What they got was a big laugh.
That said, nobody said the repatriation of the Eagle would be without compensation. Media here say the budget for a replacement stands at 200 million €. That can be either for a new build ship or to buy one of her sisters.
The admirals here prefer to get one of her sisters and Vizeadmiral Kurz brought up the Eagle as replacement. What happened to the Gorch Fock is currently investigated. It looks like crime and corruption was involved. So investigations have to see whats going on.
@swerve the 15 years come from our defense ministry, building that ship would take one year. But our ridicolous planning and law system would take it to an enormous long time span.
In the end its a political decission, if someone is willing to help us or not.
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
At least with respect to getting the Eagle, it would be much more than just a political decision, as there are impacts which would need to be planned for in terms of procurement, training and operations, as well as legal hurdles, all of which would need to be cleared.
In terms of cost, if €200 mil. is deemed sufficient to actually construct a replacement sail training vessel and bring it into German service, more would likely be required to possibly entice the US before sale of the Eagle would even be considered. After all, the Eagle has been used for ~72 years and the USCG would have additional work required to transition from one vessel to another, and/or there would be a period of disruption in the current USCG sail training programmes, all of which the US would need to plan how to manage.
So far, I still have not heard a positive reason for the US to sell the Eagle to Germany, and I have mentioned a significant negative reason not to.
Thüringer
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- #38
The Gorch Fock got already over 120 million € wasted for her refurbishment. Money that basicly was blown into the air and is lost now. Considering this, its obvious that money doent plays a big role here.
As for a positive reason. We basicly lost our flagship. USA calls itself our ally. Many in Germany would like to have her sister as new flagship and repatriate her.
One above said "good will gestures" are inestimable values. It appears good will gestures are only expected from Germany but never the otehr way around?
@Thüringer You have been given valid reasons for other options but you keep repeating the same old line about the Eagle. Is this because it was originally the Horst Wessel named after a street thug who was a symbol to the misbegotten Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei now a banned organisation in Germany and an organisation that committed so much evil between 1933 and 1945?
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