General Aviation Thread

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Another problem is the airports. You've got check in, then security before you get anywhere near the boarding gate. If the security is being anal, then people are stuck in long cranky queues. At the other end, if it's an international flight, then you have immigration, customs queues etc. If any of them are being anal, again you have long queues, this time with cranky as well as tired people. So there is quite a lot to look at before air travel can become common place again.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Another potential solution would be to include fine particle filtration and intense UV light to filter and sterilize the air prior to it being recycled back into the passenger and crew compartments.
Yes, and that will be expensive modifications. That's why from what I heard another solution is to provide additional disposable filtering on present system. This also has to be changes every flight.
However perhaps this COVID 19, will provide industry to modified air circulation system in plane. At this moment seems many Airlines that I heard prefer to make mandatory for every passanger to use mask and reduce capacity for self distancing.

If any of them are being anal, again you have long queues, this time with cranky as well as tired people. So there is quite a lot to look at before air travel can become common place again.
Try to find video from South China Morning Herald, but so far forgot the link. That video shown filtering booth that being try out by Hong Kong International Airport. The booth provide temparature scan with UV filtering and seems some kind spray based on nano cleaning tech.
Well I forgot the tech detail, but point is I agree with you that the Airport also need to make changes.

Those changes by both Airport and Airlines however can be expensive, and I don't think most airlines and airports can afford some fancy changes.
This means either reducing passanger capacity thus traffic's, by regulations or prices.

However I doubt that can be done to the extend of Industry profitability. Even IATA doubt that.


Good article on how Economics will still then play on Airlines filled up all the seats in Economy. Also in the end people will still be traveling despite the fear on infection.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Airbus has an interim solution to allow A350 users to swap out seats for pallets. As passenger jets carry 40% cargo, this capacity has been lost with passenger jet groundings. This pallet solution allows airlines to operate some of their passenger A350 as freighters that can operate profitably.

 
Business jets, the ultimate aircraft for social distancing, Bombardier and Gulfstream marketing slogan.:)
But for local travel, smaller planes work fine. Pheonom 300E is a classic example. Used from about 4M, about 200k a year to run for 100 hours (assuming self piloting). 1900 mile range. Cost about double first class per trip, if you have 3-4 people on board. With cheap fuel, cost be less.

Art
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
While there have been many comments about the difficulties that airlines and the duopoly face due to COVID, the aerospace supply chain for commercial aviation is also vulnerable as per the attached link. Keeping these companies viable may prove to be much more difficult as there are so many other sectors wanting assistance.

 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Try to find video from South China Morning Herald, but so far forgot the link. That video shown filtering booth that being try out by Hong Kong International Airport. The booth provide temparature scan with UV filtering and seems some kind spray based on nano cleaning tech.
Found the Video:

That kind of methods seems will not going to be replicate by most Airports.
Thus like I said before, some traffic will come back. Business people still need to travel, millennials probably most will shrugged off the pandemic and back to travel especially when the price of flight and accommodation rights

But probably most boomers and Gen X (thus this means family tourists) will perhaps many going to stay off and wait until the condition more or less under control. It could be to die down of pandemic, or vacine or more effective medication.

Talking with some clients and people from travel and airlines industry, basically they agree on that prediction.
However that's still not too encouraging for Industry. Business travels predicted due to recession and slow down in business will not going to be paid by their company on Business or economy premium classes. The millennials mostly goes on budget.

The boomers and Gen X that relatively can paid more premium packages or even those in budgets since they're bringing their family..will provide more margin then millennials.

Thus Lean condition for industry will still predicted until those boomers and Gen X mostly back to travels or the business travels being paid by their company back to business or economy premium classes.
 
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Ananda

Well-Known Member
This in my opinion shown the Boeing-Embrear deal falls much more related to Boeing financial condition, and not on Boeing possition that Embrear is in fault.

This is quite interesting article that talk about the consequences of Boeing-Embrear tied up falling deal. In short eventough the writer think Boeing offer to Embrear of USD 4.2 bio is too high under current circumstances, but his opinion that Boeing should not drop the deal but offer lower prices. Embrear need Boeing support also, thus potentially Embrear can consider lower price for strategic partnering with Boeing.

Boeing in this article need Embrear not only for E2 series facing A220 market, but also need Embrear pool of engineers and tech to keep up the projects. Boeing own resources already faced lot off presure in MAX, thus with Embrear tied up, they can spread out resources for multiple projects that Boeing need to catch up with Airbus.

Seems Boeing own financial stressed already push them to goes for short term action rather than long term strategic.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Yet another solution for passenger to cargo conversions, this time the A380. Restoring revenue capability to stored A380s will be welcomed by carriers.

 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Operators of S-92 helicopters are awaiting word on the results of the RCAF’s Cyclone crash. A mechanical issue/flaw would likely mean a grounding for S-92s as the CH-148 is derived from the S-92. As per the article, this will present difficulties for the offshore oil and gas industry.

 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Boeing is doing some research on modelling of pathogens wrt circulation within a airliner cabin. Certainly a worthwhile effort but I question if any real solution exists short of a face helmet connected to a HEPA filter for everyone on board or a vaccine.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Boeing is doing some research on modelling of pathogens wrt circulation within a airliner cabin. Certainly a worthwhile effort but I question if any real solution exists short of a face helmet connected to a HEPA filter for everyone on board or a vaccine.
Purdue University has already done some modelling. I'm not,....optimistic over stopping such a spread!

 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Yes, I saw that graphic earlier and it certainly shows the difficulty in containing the viral spread in a confined space, even with empty row/adjacent seat separation. Even if such separation schemes were effective the economics don’t work at all. Mind you, the comfort aspect would be awesome!
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Yet another freighter conversion effort, this time 737s. This company should experiment with a MAX. Might be one way for airlines to utilize MAXs which some passengers will stay away from even post COVID. The expanded range of aircraft conversions illustrates how much cargo capacity has been reduced by idled passenger jets.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Qantas and I suspect quite a few other airlines are proposing that they just ignore social distancing.
It probably isn't really practical to do so on an airliner. Apparently with social distancing a typical passenger jet might only be able to carry around 30 passengers. Instead it is proposing that it will provide masks for all passengers, limit movement about the plane and undertake enhanced cleaning procedures among other things.

It may have to be the same with other forms of public transport as well. I cant see how you can get people moving again when you won't allow buses and trains to carry more than a handful of passengers. The traffic on the highway is already bad enough without cutting back public transport even more.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think that will eventually happen otherwise air travel will become uneconomic for both the general public and a vast majority of pre COVID-19 airlines. At the moment it's a good thing because it helps limit international and inter regional air travel, which has the effect of reducing the number of infectious COVID-19 carriers spreading the virus wider.

However this disease is going to be with us for the foreseeable future, and a vaccine and / or a cure is not guaranteed. Hence for the medium term, air travel as we know it will change.

Now time to figure out how to smuggle my rum barrel on to the planes as cabin baggage.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Now time to figure out how to smuggle my rum barrel on to the planes as cabin baggage.
It depends on just how much you want to carry onboard with you, but if need be... get a note or paperwork from your physician that you need supplemental oxygen and carry a portable "oxygen" bottle connected with a nasal cannula and tubing with you. I doubt anyone would bother checking what is actually in that "oxygen" tank. Not that I know of any instances where ETOH-based beverages were dispensed from O2 cylinders...
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member

Example of New Normal on airlines traveling. This one from KLM. Besides procedures of physical distancing in airport and aboard, more disinfectant cleaning and using masks for crew and customers. They are also using more filters in air circulation system and pumping fresh air more.

Well in the end people will still traveling, and I still predicted besides the business travelers, the millennials will make most of travellers for time being.
I still suspect most Boomers and Gen X (and their families) will stay out unless they really need to (as business travelers or in emergency).
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
If it is just business travellers and millennials, many airlines will not survive. Many businesses will be re-evaluating travel for both economic and safety reasons and based on their web-conference experiences it is not unreasonable to expect many companies deciding travel isn’t worth the cost. Effective masks for all on board may help but on a 8-12 hour flight, a real PITA.
 
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