Future of the French/Russian Mistral LHDs

[Blackshoe]

I think it's a great idea but generally unrealistic.


Agree with Feanor's comment regarding the UN spearheading this. UN could simply ask/assess larger membership fees to nations starting with the members of the UN Security Council.

If they become UN ships they I'd ask a further UN question, why limit them to disaster relief?
Why not set them up as a UN unit to deter potential aggression with an international force?

Float them toward the coastline as conflict arises and provide international deterrence as a negotiation tool?

A few problems with the idea of a UN fleet to deter aggression:

1. The UN is not currently tasked nor organized to "deter aggression".
1a. Nor are they probably competent enough to pull it off (IMHO).
1b. There is a huge amount of leeriness and fear in certain parts of the world about the loss of sovereignty of the UN doing exactly whast you propose.
1c. Good luck getting the UNSC to agree to fund it. Especially in the assessing larger fees section.

As far as the UN setting up something

Now, as Feanor mentioned, the Russians could do it-it would make some sense to have something like these assigned to MChS (although no one would believe that they would just stay MChS for long), but Russia's unique in that they have a national organization for this. Most people don't. The equivalent UN office, OCHA, is neither manned nor equipped to drive ships. Nor do they want to be-their goal is to be a facilitator for national-level agencies to provide expertise and equipment and to be able to respond quickly as needed. And they're pretty good at that; if pressed into the role of being a resource provider, I can't imagine they'd do well at it.

 

[Feanor]

A few problems with the idea of a UN fleet to deter aggression:

1. The UN is not currently tasked nor organized to "deter aggression".
1a. Nor are they probably competent enough to pull it off (IMHO).
1b. There is a huge amount of leeriness and fear in certain parts of the world about the loss of sovereignty of the UN doing exactly whast you propose.
1c. Good luck getting the UNSC to agree to fund it. Especially in the assessing larger fees section.

No, deterring aggression is wishful thinking. I mean, next time the US wants to bomb Libya, does the UN dispatch its "deterrence force"? Silly in my opinion. Disaster relief and only disaster relief, is a different story.

As far as the UN setting up something

Now, as Feanor mentioned, the Russians could do it-it would make some sense to have something like these assigned to MChS (although no one would believe that they would just stay MChS for long), but Russia's unique in that they have a national organization for this. Most people don't. The equivalent UN office, OCHA, is neither manned nor equipped to drive ships. Nor do they want to be-their goal is to be a facilitator for national-level agencies to provide expertise and equipment and to be able to respond quickly as needed. And they're pretty good at that; if pressed into the role of being a resource provider, I can't imagine they'd do well at it.

Well that's just it. It would be amazing to see an international organization, under UN auspices, that is a global equivalent of the Russian MChS. Global disaster relief with a fleet of aircraft, and ships, as well as fire-fighters, search and rescue, etc. They could respond to tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, etc. Anything that national disaster relief efforts aren't up to matching. I even recall some Russian studies that claimed you could set up a global rescue system for any ships that go down by using large ground-effect vehicles for rapid response. Leaving the wishful thinking about ground effect vehicles (something about them appeals to public imagination in Russia), a set of global rapid response center equipped with aircraft and UAVs to respond to ship and plane wrecks, and ships for slower and more sustained response to larger incidents would do a lot of good.

Of course the problem is that nations will have little incentive to invest in and develop domestic agencies, when they can fall back on international resources. But this is a hypothetical problem to a hypothetical situation. So...

Anyways I'll stop now. It's pretty obvious the UN is not buying the Mistrals.

 

[Ranger25]

No, deterring aggression is wishful thinking. I mean, next time the US wants to bomb Libya, does the UN dispatch its "deterrence force"? Silly in my opinion. Disaster relief and only disaster relief, is a different story.



Well that's just it. It would be amazing to see an international organization, under UN auspices, that is a global equivalent of the Russian MChS. Global disaster relief with a fleet of aircraft, and ships, as well as fire-fighters, search and rescue, etc. They could respond to tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, etc. Anything that national disaster relief efforts aren't up to matching. I even recall some Russian studies that claimed you could set up a global rescue system for any ships that go down by using large ground-effect vehicles for rapid response. Leaving the wishful thinking about ground effect vehicles (something about them appeals to public imagination in Russia), a set of global rapid response center equipped with aircraft and UAVs to respond to ship and plane wrecks, and ships for slower and more sustained response to larger incidents would do a lot of good.

Of course the problem is that nations will have little incentive to invest in and develop domestic agencies, when they can fall back on international resources. But this is a hypothetical problem to a hypothetical situation. So...

Anyways I'll stop now. It's pretty obvious the UN is not buying the Mistrals.

Indeed, was mainly meant I jest and discussion.

Still will be interesting to see where they go. Perhaps one in the South China Sea, Singapore? And one around the Arabian Pennisula

 

[Nick underscore]

Indeed, was mainly meant I jest and discussion.

Still will be interesting to see where they go. Perhaps one in the South China Sea, Singapore? And one around the Arabian Pennisula

I think they will be paired as a package. The cost is reduced already

Money for me is still on a M.E customer (Saudi gifting is still possible) or as a NATO 'pooling' option, if they can't be sold off directly to an acceptable sovereign country

 

[Ranger25]

I think they will be paired as a package. The cost is reduced already

Money for me is still on a M.E customer (Saudi gifting is still possible) or as a NATO 'pooling' option, if they can't be sold off directly to an acceptable sovereign country

Agreed about the ME and the Saudis. Given they were upgraded for Artic conditions, NATO may be a good option. To my knowledge not of the USN or other NATO amphibious classes are reinforced for Artic conditions

 

[barney41]

Is it true that the Mistrals were not configured with air conditioning since they were originally intended to serve in cold climes? If so, would that be an issue for any ME navy?

 

[swerve]

I doubt it. Why redesign the air conditioning out? The Russian navy often operates in hot climates.

 

[Ranger25]

I doubt it. Why redesign the air conditioning out? The Russian navy often operates in hot climates.

More news on where they may end up. Malaysia is now in the conversation. Would make good sense for them not only from a strategic need but from a disaster support ship due to their vast coastal geography


https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/russia-to-order-french-mistral-lhds-05749/

 

[swerve]

The Brazilians have just bought the ex-MN LPD Siroco (commissioned 1998, so plenty of life letf), & are short of cash so probably out of the game for now, despite still having two late 1960s amphibs they'd like to replace. The Mistrals would be a major enhancement of capability over them anyway, so perhaps too much to ask.

India is seeking four LHDs in this class, & the Mistral class is one of the designs being considered. The problems are that (1) India wants 'em home built & (2) Indian procurement. It'd make perfect sense to buy them, have them fitted out locally, thus enabling the yard to gain knowledge of the ships, then build two more. But that's probably too logical for India's procurement bureaucracy & politicians.

 

[Joe Black]

Don't think Malaysia can afford to pay for such a ship. Singapore has already sent a team over to France to inspect the ship, but I suspect they are there to learn more about LHD construction than to actually wanting to purchase it.

My money is still on India getting one, Egypt getting one and Canada being the dark horse in this bidding game.

 

[John Fedup]

Don't think Malaysia can afford to pay for such a ship. Singapore has already sent a team over to France to inspect the ship, but I suspect they are there to learn more about LHD construction than to actually wanting to purchase it.

My money is still on India getting one, Egypt getting one and Canada being the dark horse in this bidding game.

Canada would do a rigorous inspection before considering a buy. If the build quality is half as bad as some have mentioned in this thread no deal would happen. Nobody wants a repeat of the Upholder deal where Canada failed to properly evaluate what was being purchased. Fixing a badly constructed Mistral will end up costing more than a JC.

 

[RobWilliams]

I recently read Canada rejected the idea of buying them recently anyway?

 

[John Fedup]

I recently read Canada rejected the idea of buying them recently anyway?

That is my understanding as well but with an election looming stupid stuff happens.

 

[KiwiRob]

Canada would do a rigorous inspection before considering a buy. If the build quality is half as bad as some have mentioned in this thread no deal would happen. Nobody wants a repeat of the Upholder deal where Canada failed to properly evaluate what was being purchased. Fixing a badly constructed Mistral will end up costing more than a JC.

They were talking about the vessel the Australians looked at before making the decision to buy Spanish, these are not the same ships.

 

[Volkodav]

Same design consolidated at the same yard though. You would hope that as these are the forth and fifth vessels constructed that they would be completed to a higher standard.

 

[KiwiRob]

Same design consolidated at the same yard though. You would hope that as these are the forth and fifth vessels constructed that they would be completed to a higher standard.

Not quite. The first two DCN was the prime contractor, the vessels were assembled and launched from DCN's yard in Breast, the other three were built by STX Europe and assembled at STX's Chantiers de l'Atlantique yard at St Saint-Nazaire.

 

[Volkodav]

Fair enough, whether that makes things better or worse I don't know.

 

[swerve]

Don't think Malaysia can afford to pay for such a ship. Singapore has already sent a team over to France to inspect the ship, but I suspect they are there to learn more about LHD construction than to actually wanting to purchase it.

My money is still on India getting one, Egypt getting one and Canada being the dark horse in this bidding game.

India's requirement is for four, so it could easily buy both. Given India's usual difficulties in starting to build a new design, there'd be sense in that, giving them two to fit out to their own requirements before building two more in India. Why buy only one?

 

[Feanor]

India's requirement is for four, so it could easily buy both. Given India's usual difficulties in starting to build a new design, there'd be sense in that, giving them two to fit out to their own requirements before building two more in India. Why buy only one?

India would be an interesting customer because they have plenty of Russian hardware already, and could have the Mistrals completed with Russia on-board systems, and helos, as these were originally intended. They already fly plenty of Kamovs in their naval aviation, though it's a good question whether they want to operate the Mi-35, AH-64, and Ka-52 side by side.

 

[Ranger25]

India would be an interesting customer because they have plenty of Russian hardware already, and could have the Mistrals completed with Russia on-board systems, and helos, as these were originally intended. They already fly plenty of Kamovs in their naval aviation, though it's a good question whether they want to operate the Mi-35, AH-64, and Ka-52 side by side.

Interesting buyer, given heightened tensions in the Indian Ocean and South Cina Sea and their domestic production lapses the Indian Navy would make sense