French Navy Replaces British Royal Navy As 1st West European Navy

[Grand Danois]

This whole convo was brought on by the statement 45s are more powerful than ABs. This means in every aspect of firepower and capabilities. You said that 45s can beat the ABs in AAW as a stand alone system. I disagree, the Aster 30 has nowhere near the range of the SM-2. I have seen them engage targets at over 80nm, not km. Does PAAM system have better range than the SPY-2 radar, I doubt it since it since the HPD S/C band is used for detecting ballistic missiles. The PAAMS uses D band which is a good all around system but not as powerful.

The reason I pointed out that the force of the Type 45 is primarily as an AAW destroyer was precisly because of the misconception that it was a multimission destroyer.

This is also why I compared on basis of the relevant mission.

The threat to ships today is coordinated attacks of sea skimming cruise missiles. They are masked by the curvature of the Earth.

Radar

• SAMPSON is the MFR radar used for Type 45. It is E/F not D. S-1850 volume search is S [EDIT: That's a D in NATO terminology]. Should be optimal vs LO, but that of course depends on tuning of target.

• SAMPSON is placed higher up on a sensor mast. Better line of sight and can engage sea skimming cruise missiles further away.

• SAMPSON is an AESA. This means lower false alarm rates, better clutter rejection, reinterrogation of suspect return. Good vs LO.

• As for range of radars, S-1850 does TBMD too. This means exoatmospheric. Was tested in February with SM-3.

Missiles

• As shown, range of missile matters not if limited by detection range of radar.

• Aster most likely to have best maneuverability. PIF PAF.

• Ripple fire. Good vs massed missile attacks.

• IIRC PAAMS can engage more targets at the same time. Good vs massed missile attacks.

Highly balanced and specced, the Type 45 is...

Cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Aster missiles and a remark on the French Navy's budgets

Sorry Big-E but from what I've seen on all publications Aster 30 is perfectly comparable with the SM-2 (may be not the SM-2 III however) in terms of range. Besides, once your missile can shoot down a plane 100km away, you're very unlikely to use it to its full range until the target has been perfectly identified. Think of what happened to the USS Vincennes when it shot down an Iranian civilian airliner by mistake in the '90s.

On the subject of who has the better destroyer... the Burkes are pure AAW ships or can launch Tomahawks but if somebody else targets them after the launch. Most Burkes (Flight I) doesn't even have a hangar for helos. T45 DDGs are already more multifunctional, but due to budget reasons ASW is reduced to the minimum. I'm not even sure T45 will have SSMs at all. If one looks for a fully multifunctional though primarily AAW destroyer, the best answer is probably the Horizons of France and Italy. Here's why :
> 48 VLS for Aster 30
> space for another 32 VLS to be istalled if needed
> still 8 good launchers (not VLS) for Teseo-3 SSMs (200+ km range) on the
Italian ships, or for Milas ASW missiles
> strong ASW capabilities, including VDS sonar and the milas ASW missiles
> huge hangar for 2 NH-90 medium helos, and normally the heavy EH-101
can be carried aboard as well for long-range AEW, ASUW or ASW.
Last but not least, for those still looking at sizes, we're talking 152 metre-long 7,800 ton ships, i.e. comparable to the Burkes and closer to 1970s cruisers than to a frigate.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

oops I was forgetting the point on French budgets

Let's not exaggerate either on how short French Naval budgets are... even suggesting that the De Gaulle could be sold to India or anybody else is crazy once you know the French even a bit...
The De Gaulle is a matter of national pride, almost a symbol of the nation, and for all its faults it is the core of the Navy. In France they'd rather cut non defense spending or increase taxes than ever consider relinquishing the status a CVN brings to the country.
True, there will be only 2 Horizon DDGs, however let's not forget the 4 SSBNs which are shining new, the 6 SSNs to be replaced by 6 Barracuda (vs 8 for the UK's Astute), 4 LPD/LPH of generous size, and the fact that France is replacing almost one-to-one small & obsolete "avisos" such as the A69 class with 140-m 5600-ton multimission frigates... definitively not negligeable.
This doesn't change my point of view that the Royal Navy remains number one, but let's not downgrading the French one just yet !!!

cheers

 

[Big-E]

Sorry Big-E but from what I've seen on all publications Aster 30 is perfectly comparable with the SM-2 (may be not the SM-2 III however) in terms of range. Besides, once your missile can shoot down a plane 100km away, you're very unlikely to use it to its full range until the target has been perfectly identified. Think of what happened to the USS Vincennes when it shot down an Iranian civilian airliner by mistake in the '90s.
Most Burkes (Flight I) doesn't even have a hangar for helos

I meant SM-2 III, I also meant flight IIA, not the older versions. Most of the first flight have undergone upgrades to their hanger decks however. The Vincennes incident can be arrributed to the poor readability of the sensor information. If you have ever seen the CIC of new AEGIS ships this would not happen again.

the Burkes are pure AAW ships or can launch Tomahawks but if somebody else targets them after the launch..T45 DDGs are already more multifunctional, but due to budget reasons ASW is reduced to the minimum. I'm not even sure T45 will have SSMs at all.

The Burke IIAs are not pure AAW ships. They also have extensive ASW and strike capabilties. More so than the 45s for sure. With 45s budget restraints this makes it even more so. The US has the budget to run any VLS package they want, any time they want.

I'm not sure what your implying in the bold print. Are you saying launching TASSMs or TLAMs are vulnerable to being shot down? If so it's not exactly easy to detect a launched Tomahawk.

 

[contedicavour]

Burke destroyers

Hello Big E, what I meant in my post above is that - AFAIK - Burkes are splendid destroyers, but their potential is mostly AAW. If they embark Tomahawk missiles, those can be adequately guided and targeted only if the destroyer acts within a system including satellites, AWACS, other ships closer to the target.
I'll try to make myself clearer : Burkes alone are mostly only superb AAW platforms. Burkes within carrier battle groups become multi-role.
Again, to the best of my undestanding, T45s (and Horizons even more) are supposed to be at full potential even when acting alone, AAW, ASW, ASUW, since on this side of the Atlantic we can't take for granted the availability of our much fewer aircraft carrier & battle groups to be around.
As "standalones" Horizon DDGs and T45s are much better multi-role destroyers than Burkes. At least, that's my opinion based on reading naval affairs magazines.

cheers

 

[Big-E]

Hello Big E, what I meant in my post above is that - AFAIK - Burkes are splendid destroyers, but their potential is mostly AAW. If they embark Tomahawk missiles, those can be adequately guided and targeted only if the destroyer acts within a system including satellites, AWACS, other ships closer to the target.
I'll try to make myself clearer : Burkes alone are mostly only superb AAW platforms. Burkes within carrier battle groups become multi-role.
Again, to the best of my undestanding, T45s (and Horizons even more) are supposed to be at full potential even when acting alone, AAW, ASW, ASUW, since on this side of the Atlantic we can't take for granted the availability of our much fewer aircraft carrier & battle groups to be around.
As "standalones" Horizon DDGs and T45s are much better multi-role destroyers than Burkes. At least, that's my opinion based on reading naval affairs magazines.

cheers

You make the point that they are only superb when they are supported by a CGB or other aircraft but I have seen a two ship AB Flight/IIA SAG perform beautifully in multi-roles with no support. Using their Sea Hawks to extend line of sight give them the ability to ID and engage targets far BVR. Any fighters that try to intercept the helos have a good chance of coming into the AEGIS bubble being shot down before they can engage. Tasking orders for any target within the region can be hit with TASSMs or TLAMs using satellite reconassaince without airsupport. They have plenty of ASW capability, towed array and bow mounted sonars. 2 Sea Hawks. DDG 96 and later ships are receiving the updated 5”/62 cal Mk 45 Mod 4 gun, with the capability to fire guided shells to 63 nm ranges. I think the new ABs can handle themselves pretty well. IMO it fills the roles of AAW, ASW and ASUW better than the 45s. If you can compare 45s capabilities to these systems and show they are better please do b/c I have never seen them in action. I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong but I'm still waiting for the evidence.

 

[contedicavour]

Burke Flight II vs Horizon DDGs

Thks for the experience you shared in your post, Big-E.
Very interesting.

On my side, I haven't myself seen yet anything on the T45 since the 1st isn't operational yet (although you can go to the Royal Navy internet site, they have a video simulating the T45 capabilities).

I have however seen close to La Spezia (one of the 2 major Italian Navy bases) the new Andrea Doria Horizon-class DDG in sea trials. I have posted some pictures in the gallery. The equipment is comparable to the Burke flight IIA you described (AAW with Aster-30 and Aster-15, 48 VLS extendable to 64 if needed, EMPAR planar array and Alenia long-range air search radar, 8 tubes to launch Teseo Mk3 200-km SSMs or MILAS which are ASROC-type ASW missiles, 3 76/62 super-rapido guns with guided CIWS ammunition, and 2 medium-to-heavy NH-90 or EH-101 helos).

Let's wait a couple of years to have T45 and Horizon classes fully operational so that we'll be able to jointly operate with Burke DDGs and then we'll be able to compare

Cheers

 

[KAPITAIN]

When Britain pulled out didnt anyone stop to notice that the type 45 has a remarkable resemblance to the horizon ships?

 

[Big-E]

When Britain pulled out didnt anyone stop to notice that the type 45 has a remarkable resemblance to the horizon ships?

Well duhhhhhhh, considering they both are based on PAAMS.:dunce