French authorize troops to shoot down threatening Israeli planes

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Waylander

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Maybe lasers used for blinding the IR-sensor? Such a systme would be very interesting.

As to the "Alster".
It is unimportant if you say that:
ELINT ships in most cases have weapons to defend themselves, specially Sea-Air missiles, or ammunition of this kind or another, which in our case will be the same for the F-16 counter measures systems.
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That may be right in most cases but our Oste class just do not carry any weapons apart form personal small arms (P8, G36, MG3, G3, P1).

The incident with the helicopter was another one which was not related to the "Alster" situation.
I never heard of any F-16 firing flares there or that one of our ships tried to light them up.

You should also take one thing into account. Due to our past every captain who would do anything which looks agressive, not to talk of trying to lock on a IAF plane, would be getting his ass kicked if he would not be able to give a very, very good explanation.
A confrontation with the IDF is the aspect which was most feared by our politicians and was also one of the main reasons for not sending ground forces. They thought that it would be much less possible that ships could have to deal with the IDF.
The outcry because of german soldiers firing at IDF (jewish) soldiers would be amazing.
 
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Patzek

New Member
heh

Seems like we got confused between two incidents, and you also succeeded confusing me.
I'm not aware to the German's navy ships models, and I think we just talked about two different incidents which in the end I got confused between the Navy Ships.

I am not aware to the incident with the ELINT ship ( which I now understood what you were talking about ), I heared on this incident here, and I have no information on this case whatsoever.

The only, ( ONLY ) case I'm aware to, is the incident with the ship who had a helicopter pad.
And I was talking about this specific one all the time, only that I didn't understood what you were talking about and we just talked on two different cases.

Don't worry pal. We see Germany as our friends, and most of us doesn't really look on the past. Germany of WW2 and Germany of 2006 is not the same country, we're not stupids, we know that.
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
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Aaaaah. :)
Okay, I see our problem. ;)

The interesting thing is that most people all over the world know this but we don't. :rolleyes: ;)
 
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Britalian

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Re: French Shootdown IDF Planes

I agree with those that say this is largely exaggerated. However, the French should take into account that reconaissance is of critical importance to the IDF at this time. Time spent in Reconaissance is seldom wasted. The stakes are as high this time as they are every time for Israel. France would not hesitate to employ every means of reconaissance available to them if they were in Israel's place.
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Britalian said:
I agree with those that say this is largely exaggerated. However, the French should take into account that reconaissance is of critical importance to the IDF at this time. Time spent in Reconaissance is seldom wasted. The stakes are as high this time as they are every time for Israel. France would not hesitate to employ every means of reconaissance available to them if they were in Israel's place.
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Yep - and things have been running alot smoother with the majority of UNIFIL on the ground. Some folks did make a good argument over the German intellegence ship though.
 
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dioditto

New Member
Waylander said:
I'm also interested in how you jam IR-guided missiles by using active systems.
These missiles (Let'S take Stinger as an example) are just not active and the only way to disturb them is to cover your heat emissions and by using flares.
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You can not jam the IR signatures, but I think you can "jam" the electronics/sensors on the opposing side. A strong/focused electronmagnetic wave can damage a lot of sensitive sensors and onboard electronics.

Also, as you said in later post, that Laser jamming might be a possibility. (I am speculating here) The Israeli does have very advanced laser systems - I think I have read some news about Israeli developed a laser systems to target and shoot down ballistic missiles, so if the system is sophiscated enough it is highly probable a similar system can target the IR sensors.
 
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wittmanace

Active Member
one thing to consider though...these are UN roops and nless im mstaken, the UN does not list hezbollah as a terrorist group..as such they might have much lower tolerance for israel carrying out reconaissance...

anyone have more info on this issue of UN not listing hezbollah as a terrorist organisation? though i know the us and israel do list it as a terror organisation...norway, for example, does not list hamas nor hezbollah as terror organisations, though i think nato does...there was some debate about this in norway, as they wanted hamas to visit norway in july i think.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
dioditto said:
You can not jam the IR signatures, but I think you can "jam" the electronics/sensors on the opposing side. A strong/focused electronmagnetic wave can damage a lot of sensitive sensors and onboard electronics.

Also, as you said in later post, that Laser jamming might be a possibility. (I am speculating here) The Israeli does have very advanced laser systems - I think I have read some news about Israeli developed a laser systems to target and shoot down ballistic missiles, so if the system is sophiscated enough it is highly probable a similar system can target the IR sensors.
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Yes, but I doubt very much that an F-15 or F-16 would have the power output to do that, & in any case, that would be an unequivocal attack. Also, aircraft are more vulnerable to such a mode of attack than ships or ground-based electronics, for obvious reasons.

Targeting the IR sensor of a small, agile missile, from a fighter, is much harder than targeting an incoming ballistic missile from a ground-based laser.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Waylander said:
Maybe lasers used for blinding the IR-sensor? Such a systme would be very interesting.
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That is precisely how the DIRCM system works on aircraft. I suppose there is no technical reason why it couldn't be used from a ship also...
 
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dioditto

New Member
swerve said:
Yes, but I doubt very much that an F-15 or F-16 would have the power output to do that, & in any case, that would be an unequivocal attack. Also, aircraft are more vulnerable to such a mode of attack than ships or ground-based electronics, for obvious reasons.

Targeting the IR sensor of a small, agile missile, from a fighter, is much harder than targeting an incoming ballistic missile from a ground-based laser.
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Aussie digger said it for me :)

DIRCM system :
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/an-aaq-24.htm
 
D

Ding

Member
Patzek said:
About the ship again...

Please people, just stop.
All of those reports are just 1 big bias, that never happened.
There was 1, a single incident with a German ship, which I said what happened a post ago.

The 2 " SHOTS " that was mentiouned by the Germans, wasn't shots, they were FLARES.
Flares beeing relased from the F-16 in a direct response to the ship's radars trying to lock on them.

Whoever said the ships wasn't armed... I have no IDEA where you got this information, the ship mentioned in this incident was indeed armed, and did had an helicopter pad on it.
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Sorry someone may have replied this since i have not gone thru the whole thread yet just to voice out something.

You release flares to decoy IR missiles or targetting systems. to decoy radars trying to lock on you, you deploy chaff, not flares.
 
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Patzek

New Member
Ding said:
Sorry someone may have replied this since i have not gone thru the whole thread yet just to voice out something.

You release flares to decoy IR missiles or targetting systems. to decoy radars trying to lock on you, you deploy chaff, not flares.
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No debate about that, Chaffs and Flares aren't very much alike ;]
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
swerve said:
I haven't been able to find any references to DIRCM systems for fighters. Can anyone point to me one?
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I am no expert on this, however I am unaware of any such systems existing to date. I have only heard of DIRCM and LAIRCM systems, both of which are designed for aircraft, much larger than any fighter.

Perhaps the power generation requirements cannot be met for a fighter, or the need or techincal advantage just isn't there, given the performance, maneuvreability etc of a tactical fighter?
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
Aussie Digger said:
I am no expert on this, however I am unaware of any such systems existing to date. I have only heard of DIRCM and LAIRCM systems, both of which are designed for aircraft, much larger than any fighter.

Perhaps the power generation requirements cannot be met for a fighter, or the need or techincal advantage just isn't there, given the performance, maneuvreability etc of a tactical fighter?
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I wondered about the aerodynamics.
 
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