- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #21
But it's playing itself out in Ukraine right now. I think it started with Russia ramming Ukraine's larger Baba Yaga drones but it's spreading quickly.
FPV Drones and the Future Battlefield
- Thread starter Feanor
- Start date
My reply was in the context of FPV drones (e.g taking out FPV drones with other drones) as I mentioned a few times.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #23
Ukrainian FPV drones have hit Russian Lancets. I think that's pretty close to that scenario.
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
So you took Myanmar as your case for your entire reply? Okay, sorry it seems I misunderstood you.
For the second paragraph I think Lebanon is a great example. Terrorist army using a wide range of drones and other munitions, against a first rate military that utilizes a wide range of intelligence (including SIGINT) capabilities. The main hurdle is geography. Highly permissive for launching drones, and makes detection incredibly difficult. Hezbollah has its own air defenses but IAF drones are still flying over Lebanon, collecting data.
Yet it seems more drones are flying in than operators are killed.
I think we're in agreement that we need to be proactive about threats but also be ready to defeat them when they're in the air.
FPV drones are unique in that they're readily available for a low cost from the internet. What I talked about earlier is using force multipliers, which are a feature of proper armed forces but not exclusively. Armed drones can definitely be employed by low end armed forces, just not as reliably.
And if we're talking about Myanmar, then garage-level modifications are probably upper limit of sophistication.
If I was tasked with creating a drone that can shoot down other drones, then the first solution I'd go for is having a dedicated drone operator per sector flying a drone to which a folded net is attached.
As a follow on modification I'd set up my own controller and downselect my drone choice to something that has an API for its camera. Use that to give me an indication of flying objects. I'd have to look up to have good resolution against a sky background, but it's something.
Next after that I'd look for at least a modest comms modification to have a few different frequencies. It'll get more lossy, I'm dividing my transmission and reception power, but that's okay if I'm afraid of jammers.
Next I'd replace the net with something more quick and reliable like a buckshot. My main worry is I'll miss the drone and won't be able to catch up later, so this should make it more reliable. The drone will be single use, but it's probably worth it.
Some of the modifications I listed are things I saw the IDF using to down incendiary balloons in the Gaza envelope area. They're made in small workshops, with maybe 1-2 software devs behind it. Total work may be several months though.
While I talked about refinements, the basic capability of just manually guiding an FPV drone to ram another was demonstrated in Ukraine, as @Feanor said.
My skepticism of FPVs versus FPVs is about the reaction time and size. The man-in-the-loop guidance also means any softkill systems (EW) needs to be adjusted (frequency) to avoid interfering with friendly FPVs.
None of these are stoppers and the advantage of FPVs are low cost.
@Big_Zucchini
My view on the evolution of counter-FPV are AI enabled drone swarms (with battlefield radars), with terminal guidance via image recongition. The technology already exists, but it is mostly a cost (dropping) and integration issue.
Re Myanmar and other developing countries, their capabilities are hampered by weak supply chain. Ukraine and to some degree, Russia have access to global supply chains and funding. Developing countries armed forces, ethnic armed organisations in Myanmar have done very well considering their circumstances (Federal Wings) but access to basic components are challenging to say the least.
Its not just matter of flying off a drone into n rea ,this article claims Ukraine loses or uses ten thousand a month the next suggests that its cheaper to lose expendable cheap drones as a cost benefit performance compared more expensive drones
www.forbes.com
breakingdefense.com
This article cites Ukraine with the aim of producing 1 million fpv drones in 2024 double the amount of artillery shells provided by the E.U over the past year
www.forbes.com
New Report: Ukraine Drone Losses Are ‘10,000 Per Month’
A report by a defense thinktank RUSI claims Ukraine is losing an incredible 10,000 drones a month, mainly due to Russian jamming. Does this show the failure or the success of such drones as modern battlefield tools?
www.forbes.com
Dumb and cheap: When facing electronic warfare in Ukraine, small drones' quantity is quality - Breaking Defense
With Ukraine losing up to 10,000 drones a month, mostly to Russian electronic warfare, it’s tempting to invest in anti-EW protection – but, experts agreed, it’s probably more cost-effective to accept high losses and just buy more bare-bones drones.
breakingdefense.com
New Report: Ukraine Drone Losses Are ‘10,000 Per Month’
A report by a defense thinktank RUSI claims Ukraine is losing an incredible 10,000 drones a month, mainly due to Russian jamming. Does this show the failure or the success of such drones as modern battlefield tools?
www.forbes.com
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #27
The question is whether they get the job done. If they don't get the job done, it doesn't matter how cheap they are. The cheapest drone in the world is a poor cost benefit trade-off if it can literally never survive long enough to complete its mission. This, I believe, is what @Big_Zucchini is getting at. I'm not sold on his argument mainly because the actual forces being fielded by various first-world armies simply don't have the kinds of kit and capabilities he's talking about. Israel seems to have handled the Hamas drone threat relatively well, but the threat wasn't nearly as robust as the current Russia-Ukraine mess, and those capabilities are actively evolving, meaning it's an open question what this will look like once all is said and done and some sort of new plateau is reached. I suspect somewhere at the end of this will be an extremely cheap loitering munition that's little more then an FPV drone but with some more sophisticated capabilities, some survivability in the area of comms, and some autonomous capability.Its not just matter of flying off a drone into n rea ,this article claims Ukraine loses or uses ten thousand a month the next suggests that its cheaper to lose expendable cheap drones as a cost benefit performance compared more expensive drones
New Report: Ukraine Drone Losses Are ‘10,000 Per Month’
A report by a defense thinktank RUSI claims Ukraine is losing an incredible 10,000 drones a month, mainly due to Russian jamming. Does this show the failure or the success of such drones as modern battlefield tools?This article cites Ukraine with the aim of producing 1 million fpv drones in 2024 double the amount of artillery shells provided by the E.U over the past yearDumb and cheap: When facing electronic warfare in Ukraine, small drones' quantity is quality - Breaking Defense
With Ukraine losing up to 10,000 drones a month, mostly to Russian electronic warfare, it’s tempting to invest in anti-EW protection – but, experts agreed, it’s probably more cost-effective to accept high losses and just buy more bare-bones drones.
New Report: Ukraine Drone Losses Are ‘10,000 Per Month’
A report by a defense thinktank RUSI claims Ukraine is losing an incredible 10,000 drones a month, mainly due to Russian jamming. Does this show the failure or the success of such drones as modern battlefield tools?
Most of the components can be acquired from China. This will give an idea about the costs.
I've seen this particular static omni directional jammer being captured from outposts in Myanmar
Detection
Directional Jammers
I've seen this particular static omni directional jammer being captured from outposts in Myanmar
[Hot Item] Vodasafe 9bands Higher Output Power Waterproof Omini Directional Antenna Anti Uav System Signal Blocker Drone Jammer
Frequency Range: 450, 1.4G 900+1.2+1.5+2.4+5.2+5.5+5.8 Frequency: 450, 1.4G 900+1.2+1.5+2.4+5.2+5.5+5.8 Application: Airports, Detention Houses, Gas Stations, Drone Working Frequencies: 450, 1.4G 900+1.2+1.5+2.4+5.2+5.5+5.8 Antenna: Directional-Directional Antenna &Omini-Directional Output...
chinanecom.en.made-in-china.com
Detection
Directional Jammers
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #30
On the subject of the direction of things to come, Russia is currently testing an airfield defense system based on the FPV drones. They obviously can't intercept big and fast missiles, but they would be potentially effective against Ukrainian long-range drone attacks on Russian airfields. Of course when it comes to rear airfields and bases that's one thing, you have quite a bit of available infrastructure to use, and you have the ability to set up radars and link it all on a relatively generous timeline. This is not at all the same as trying to protect troops on the move near or on the front line.
ria.ru
В России успешно испытали систему ПВО из FPV-дронов
Систему охраны инфраструктурных объектов, в которой используются FPV-дроны, успешно испытали на одном из действующих российских гражданских аэродромов, не... РИА Новости, 06.07.2024
ria.ru