Redlands18
Well-Known Member
There is only one Country in the world right now with a full time Carrier capability. Everyone else is playing at it. China is probably at least 20 years away from it.
Fantasy RAN thread (Carriers only)
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cdxbow
Well-Known Member
Agree absolutely. Subs >>>>>> Carrier, Also as you point out the RN does offer a salutary lesson about unbalancing your naval force. It's even stranger when you think about their lack of aircraft for the carriers now and in the near future, The first British F35B is projected to be available in 2023.
Aside from the squadron (617)currently embarked on QE? Maybe you mean the first FAA squadron, 809NAS, but it's moot because the UK intends to operate them as a joint force, just like the last decade with Harrier
oldsig
Can someone more knowledgeable than myself help me understand how the ADF can adequately "shape our region" by "projecting military force" with only land based fighters? I struggle to see how the ambitious strategic objectives from the update can be met without the Joint Force having some level of naval fixed wing capability?
Boagrius
Well-Known Member
Perhaps fixed wing aircraft are not the only available option to achieve said objectives? With SSNs in the pipeline, Tomahawk, hypersonics etc. I suspect there are multiple ways to skin the proverbial cat.
I guess part of the answer is what do you mean by " Shape the Region." Military contingency's can range from the very small to the very big.
I'm sure you know this, so the assumption is that the deal breaker is actually having on call integral fleet fast air.
If yes:
Is it 6 aircraft or 60 or some combination in between?
All combinations can be deal breakers in the appropriate scenario when compared to the alternative which is................. nothing.
Now that's nothing of course, assuming your outside of the useful range of land based RAAF aircraft. So are these aircraft restricted to Australia, or do they have international host basing.
Probably the biggest what if is, are we actually on our own, or are we operating with allied Land / fleet based fast air?
i.e. the USN.
WOW
Too many bloody scenarios.
SO
You may or may not know most on DT are not for the ADF getting the F-35B and operating it off ether the LHD's or a dedicated carrier. Too expensive and too niche. Better priority's for human and material investment. Etc Etc!
With limited funds choices have to be made. F-35B and associated ship are out.
What ever the answer to the above questions, if your still a fan for the F-35B / ship combo like myself, then I suggest you leave it at that.
This subject has being dealt with many times before and makes the mods and others very unhappy.
Regards S
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CAP over a naval task group by a baby carrier is an exhausting role for 12 pilots on shift — to ensure you have 4 fighters to meet an air threat; and another 4 to conduct a concurrent planned strike mission (i.e. 16 deployed pilots to fly 8 ready aircraft).
1. Let me break down the numbers for you for one contrived scenario. Assuming you had a baby carrier, and it is deployed with your naval task group and you had a pair of naval fighters on Alert 5 tasking, sitting in the cockpit for 4 hours at a time (ready for launch on alert). The next set of fighters is on Alert 15, tasking.
2. You get three shifts of 2 pilots, 6 pilots all exhausted from the heat of sitting in the cockpit (for their respective shifts) in a 12 hour day. The other 6 pilots have an easy day because, they are only in their flight suit, in the ready room getting ready to jump into the next set of fighters in 5 mins and their aircraft are pre-flight prepared — to ensure that the naval task group has 4 fighters to meet an air threat, with 15 mins warning.
3. Because you have fighters ready to launch, you have a rescue helicopter ready to launch (it’s part of your safety protocol). In between all this, in a planned mission, another 4 fighters are launched for a strike mission. Using all 8 fighters that are not being maintained (a US Marine F-35B squadron, has 10 aircraft). The fight crew works long 15 hour days to ensure 8 operational fighters.
4. At the end of 12 hours, the baby carrier stands down. Because the fight deck crew are tired too. Flight decks don’t operate for 24 hours. They need to sleep too.
5. Let me ask you some Qns:
Q1: When will your enemy attack?
Q2: How many enemy can your 4 fighters take on (without AWAC support for situational awareness)?
Q3: What is the range of the fighter interception without tanking support (for the F-35B)?
6. That’s why you use a joint force. For the hours the RAAF can’t be there (in a 24 hour day), you use your air warfare destroyers to augment protection needed by your task force.
(a) In Operation STABILISE, RAAF was not flying 24/7 to provide air cover, instead situational awareness was provided to Naval Component Commander (NCC), Commodore Jim Stapleton, RAN, through CTG 627.2 commanded by HMAS Adelaide. NCC eventually deployed to East Timor comprised only 16 RAN officers and other ranks, with various Coalition liaison officers.
(b) In Sep 1999, USS Mobile Bay entered the AO as the most sophisticated combatant available to INTERFET. Operational control of the cruiser remained firmly in USN hands, but she readily provided extensive support to the maritime task group in a variety of intelligence gathering and surveillance roles. Throughout her time in theatre, USS Mobile Bay remained Air Warfare Commander and her weapons, sensors and battle management systems meant that the force could operate with a high degree of confidence, even without the continuous presence of friendly fighter aircraft. Fast forward to 2021, one of the Hobart-class destroyers would serve as the Air Warfare Commander.
(c) Even if a navy had an air wing, it’s often not 24 hours a day / 7 days a week coverage. During the Gulf War, the USN deployed 5 super carriers — for round the clock coverage and ACE of the MEBs acted as decoys — so the US Army could do a left hook.
7. But the biggest threat to your task force is not a fighter or even a long range bomber. It’s an enemy submarine — who can remain the in AO far longer than any enemy fighter aircraft and bombers. In the 1982 Falklands War, ARA San Luis faced the entire British task force on its own, in a five-week patrol where she emerged unscathed. Attacks on the British missed each time because of torpedo system malfunctions.
(a) At the time, the RN operated 3 classes of frigates: (i) the Leander Class, which had been the one-size-fits-all post-WWII frigate specialising in anti-submarine work; (ii) the 1974 Type 21, a general escort; and (iii) the Type 22, a specialised sub hunter that was under construction in the late 70’s.
(b) Meanwhile, British ASW efforts against that single target proved futile. The British fired an astonishing 200 torpedoes at false contacts over 5 weeks, almost depleting their inventory. In this era, the principal ASW weapons systems were the Type 22’s Lynx helicopter and triple torpedo tubes, with 2087 towed array sonar, as part of the sensors fit.
9. I suspect, in the 2030s (after Paya Lebar Airbase is closed), Singapore will begin looking at the life-cycle costs of a baby carrier in 2040s and beyond (as part of analysis of alternatives) but not in 2021.
10. Exocet strikes against the HMS Sheffield during the Falklands War and the USS Stark in the Persian Gulf show how dangerous missiles were to carriers and destroyers, even with 1980s technology—while frigate and destroyer defences have improved:
(a) killing an incoming missile is a far more difficult task than hitting a much slower moving ship; and
(b) submarines are an imminent threat in the Indo-Pacific AO.
11. For the PLA(N) the threat is not only American submarines, but potentially Taiwanese, Japanese, and Australian boats—controlling the sea lanes around Taiwan becomes a challenging prospect for the PLA(N)—never mind the task of covering a full blown invasion force.
12. If you look at what can be achieved by a baby carrier, to project power by the RAN, is it worth it? Do you want to warp the entire RAN and the RAAF to crew a single carrier?
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Getting Mod attention for bad behaviour is not a good thing
Here's a tongue in cheek semi-serious fantasy proposal and MODs please don't ban me - back in the early 2010s when the Cameron government here in the UK were slashing defence spending (including over 5000 from the RN) imagine if they'd given a couple of thousand an option to transfer to the RAN for 5 years. Instead of redundancy they could maybe receive a relocation subsidy. Then those 2000 bods help Australia stand up a carrier capability. Maybe we'd sell you Illustrious for a dollar to work up some skills for a few years before she's scrapped.
Then the order for CVF is increased to 3, economies of scale mean the third boat would have cost under 2 billion, one of them is sold to the RAN once its worked up, to be used first in ASW mode then with guest detachments from the USMC, then Australian owned F35Bs in the 2030s. One RN and one RAN CVF are then permanently based out of Singapore starting mid 2020s in a joint AUKUS squadron providing more or less continuous carrier capability.
Maybe as part of the deal the RN adopts CEAFAR.
Then the order for CVF is increased to 3, economies of scale mean the third boat would have cost under 2 billion, one of them is sold to the RAN once its worked up, to be used first in ASW mode then with guest detachments from the USMC, then Australian owned F35Bs in the 2030s. One RN and one RAN CVF are then permanently based out of Singapore starting mid 2020s in a joint AUKUS squadron providing more or less continuous carrier capability.
Maybe as part of the deal the RN adopts CEAFAR.
@SD67, thread closed because you can’t control yourself. The alternative to allowing some discussion (until this thread gets too ridiculous), was locking the RAN thread. We do not normally allow 'fantasy' threads but we tried it again in this case.
1. Thank you for giving the Moderators an excuse to close this thread. Wish granted, thread closed along with a ban until 15 Oct 2021, for you. You have just wasted this opportunity for a meaningful discussion
2. For me, the value of contributing to DT is the corrections that I get to make in my posts, when other members point it out. Corrections makes one humble.
3. This is why Anthony_B_78 was asked: What is the basic concept of operations that is required?
4. Good writing takes time for both research and for the ideas to mature. Air Power 101 for New Members, took me weeks to write and another month to mature. I trust that he will use the time away, to mature his thoughts.
1. Thank you for giving the Moderators an excuse to close this thread. Wish granted, thread closed along with a ban until 15 Oct 2021, for you. You have just wasted this opportunity for a meaningful discussion
2. For me, the value of contributing to DT is the corrections that I get to make in my posts, when other members point it out. Corrections makes one humble.
(a) In a near peer war, any proposed RAN carrier automatically become a high value target — for US super carriers to survive, even they need to operate in 3s and in shifts. For the USN, if continuous operations is required, in their CONOPS, each carrier only conducts flight operations from 12 hours. Not sure how a proposed Australian baby carrier would really survive.
(b) On 17 January 1991 (at the start of the 43-day air campaign), 668 coalition aircraft attacked Iraq and 90 aircraft were launched from five USN carriers and the US Marine Corps. They contributed to 13% of the sorties launched on the 1st day of war, during Gulf War 1.
3. This is why Anthony_B_78 was asked: What is the basic concept of operations that is required?
4. Good writing takes time for both research and for the ideas to mature. Air Power 101 for New Members, took me weeks to write and another month to mature. I trust that he will use the time away, to mature his thoughts.
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