F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

[F-15 Eagle]

Canada, South Africa and Australia have huge amount of Titanium. Thats not the problem. The purifying process and treatment etc is more problematic and expensive.


By the way, why all this urge for more F-22:s . Is it realy such a harry?
I mean, F-15 upgraded by AESA-radar should be sufficent in 99 of 100 cases...or?

Isn't it possible to start up the production again, after let say 7-8 years and in that way pehaps sync it (the 2:nd round of production) with an upgrade of "the old" ones.

I'm just speculating

Regards from Sweden

The urge for more F-22s is because the F-15s are past there retirement date and there has been 5 crashes already from the old age from 2007 and 2008. The F-15s wont be be able to last past 2010 and even the F-15E the newest version I don't see lasting past 2018 even though the USAF said it will last until 2035.

 

[nero]

i understand that the raptors will replace the F-15s.

but what will replace the hornets ??? they are close to retirement too...

 

[alexsa]

i understand that the raptors will replace the F-15s.

but what will replace the hornets ??? they are close to retirement too...

Having been part of this forum for some time you should be aware that the F-18E, f and G are currently in production. These are progressively replacing existing 'classic' Hornet and F-14s in service although have not repalced all. I suspect when the F-35C reaches operational capability we will see the final phase out of the F-18A to D as it comes into service but the USN experts are the ones that can confirm.

 

[SlyDog]

With the current problems facing the F-15 fleet (due to age) and F-117 retiring, it is even more critical that greater numbers of the F-22 come on line.

It would also be more interesting should the US concede the F-22 to Israel and Japan.

I see. I thoughted there were more "lifetime" left in the airframes at the F-15´s. I think US will sell F-22 to japan - sooner or later. Israel...i wonder if they afford it. Australia seems to be interested to.

 

[Salty Dog]

F-22 to japan - sooner or later. Israel...i wonder if they afford it.

Japan and Israel have requested the F-22. It's not a question of price ,they need the F-22.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Japan and Israel have requested the F-22. It's not a question of price ,they need the F-22.

They've both requested it and have both been denied the F-22. Need is subjective and is based on the presumption that current and future "threat" fighters are superior to other non-F22 aircraft and that in any case individual fighter aircraft NEED to be demonstrably "superior"...

A proposition with which I must say, I disagree as do plenty of others...

 

[Salty Dog]

They've both requested it and have both been denied the F-22. Need is subjective and is based on the presumption that current and future "threat" fighters are superior to other non-F22 aircraft and that in any case individual fighter aircraft NEED to be demonstrably "superior"...

A proposition with which I must say, I disagree as do plenty of others...

Understood. I did not determine any need for the F-22 by Japan or Israel. This was what I read on each country WRT the F-22.

Your statement does bring up an interesting question:

How does the USA justify the NEED for the F-22 (and F-35)?

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Understood. I did not determine any need for the F-22 by Japan or Israel. This was what I read on each country WRT the F-22.

Your statement does bring up an interesting question:

How does the USA justify the NEED for the F-22 (and F-35)?

They need the F-22 and F-35 because the legacy fighters like the F-15 and F-16 are braking apart in mid air from old age and there are new Russian and Chinese fighters and SAMs that can destroy a F-15 and F-16. There is no point buying more F-15s and F-16s ether, the U.S. needs to move on with technology and stand down the legacy fighters and actually go ahead and replace them with the F-22 and F-35, and as I said already because of more capable threats the the USAF now faces.

 

[eaf-f16]

Understood. I did not determine any need for the F-22 by Japan or Israel. This was what I read on each country WRT the F-22.

Your statement does bring up an interesting question:

How does the USA justify the NEED for the F-22 (and F-35)?

One of the biggest reasons is the S-400 system.

The other of course is the PAK-FA and the Ibris-E equipped Su-35BM.

 

[Magoo]

One of the biggest reasons is the S-400 system.

The other of course is the PAK-FA and the Ibris-E equipped Su-35BM.

...none of which were in service or even on the drawing board when the F-22 (ATF) and F-35 (JAST/JSF) programs were envisaged in the early 1980s and early 1990s respectively.

 

[eaf-f16]

...none of which were in service or even on the drawing board when the F-22 (ATF) and F-35 (JAST/JSF) programs were envisaged in the early 1980s and early 1990s respectively.

So, really, the US wasn't expecting the Soviet Union to develop 5th generation fighters?

Didn't the Soviet Union begin researching the idea of a 5th generation also in the 80's?

Weren't the MiG-1.44 and Su-47 both revealed in the 90's?

Didn't Russia test the first S-400 system in 1999? If so wouldn't it be reasonable to say that S-400 was probably being developed since the early 90's if not earlier?

 

[Salty Dog]

Thank you mates for all your responses on why the USA needs the F-22 and F-35. I agree with you all.

(Actually I was waiting for a response from Aussie Digger.)

Anyway next question, why does JAPAN or ISRAEL need the F-22??
Both requested the F-22 and were denied by the USG.

 

[Pro'forma]

Thank you mates for all your responses on why the USA needs the F-22 and F-35. I agree with you all.

(Actually I was waiting for a response from Aussie Digger.)

Anyway next question, why does JAPAN or ISRAEL need the F-22??
Both requested the F-22 and were denied by the USG.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Very interesting in indeed.
Same on your other thoughts.

Admin: Text deleted. What is with this kind of reply? Either make your intent clearer or run the risk of being perceived as baiting. These kinds of responses are not necessary and unwelcome.

 

[eaf-f16]

...none of which were in service or even on the drawing board when the F-22 (ATF) and F-35 (JAST/JSF) programs were envisaged in the early 1980s and early 1990s respectively.

Not even on the drawing board, huh?

Link

In the early 1980s the Soviet Design bureaus were to start development of replacements for the forth-generation MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker, capable of challenging the future Advanced Tactical Fighter (AFT) planned as a successor of F-15 Eagle.

 

[gf0012-aust]

So, really, the US wasn't expecting the Soviet Union to develop 5th generation fighters?

Expectation is also measured against evidence of capability.

Didn't the Soviet Union begin researching the idea of a 5th generation also in the 80's?

its an outcome issue. see above

Weren't the MiG-1.44 and Su-47 both revealed in the 90's?

and they have both been discused at length in here. both were orphan CTD's and are stillborn platforms. Even Sukhois chief test pilot acknowledged that the S-47 was inferior to the Su-30 across a number of parameters.

As for the S-47, FSW was developed and flown by the US some 10 years earlier. FSW is not a LO design concept. It's a manouvre feature that was neutralised by off bore sight weapons and by VT missile capability

Didn't Russia test the first S-400 system in 1999? If so wouldn't it be reasonable to say that S-400 was probably being developed since the early 90's if not earlier?

Whats the role of the F-22? Since 1991 whats the principle feature of battlespace denial at the opening hours?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Not even on the drawing board, huh?

Link

Read the article. The soviets made long shot guesses on the ATF - they had no idea of any of its performance and flight parameters as they couldn't source material.

That article has some glaring innaccuracies (and it appears to not have been updated since 1997)

A more useful source and reference is Butlers "Soviet Secret Projects. Fighters Since 1945"

 

[eaf-f16]

Read the article. The soviets made long shot guesses on the ATF - they had no idea of any of its performance and flight parameters as they couldn't source material.

That article has some glaring innaccuracies (and it appears to not have been updated since 1997)

A more useful source and reference is Butlers "Soviet Secret Projects. Fighters Since 1945"

What I'm saying is the F-22 and the F-35 were developed out need.

Do you honestly believe that if the US hadn't embarked on their F-22 and F-35 5th generation fighter programs that the US would have still been able to get air-superiority fighting a PAK-FA, S-400 equipped air force?

The F-22 is not just a "Cold War fighter". There is a true need for it.

The PAK-FA could very well turn out be an an equivalent to F-22A in the A2A role except with the addition of multi-role capabilities.

 

[gf0012-aust]

What I'm saying is the F-22 and the F-35 were developed out need.

as are all tier 1 assets

Do you honestly believe that if the US hadn't embarked on their F-22 and F-35 5th generation fighter programs that the US would have still been able to get air-superiority fighting a PAK-FA, S-400 equipped air force?

yes I do. I believe that you're making an incorrect leap of analysis of looking at the T1 combat aircraft as the event changers (ie Z+1 to Z+24)in dealing with GBAD. Modern combat is not looking at a jet based equiv of a typhoon/tempest to go in and kill the GBAD.

Air superiority is a second stage component of managing the battlespace.
Strike is a supportive role that merges the gray line beteeen battlespace supremacy and air superiority (and post air supremacy for battlespace manouvre dominance over the enemies ground elements post decap)

The F-22 is not just a "Cold War fighter". There is a true need for it.

The F-22 was delayed in development due to the collapse of the soviets in 1989. If the soviets had not collapsed the baseline aircraft would have appeared much much sooner and with a different iterative capability. Its source of origin is cold war - its actual development is not.

The PAK-FA could very well turn out be an an equivalent to F-22A in the A2A role except with the addition of multi-role capabilities.

There's not enough info to make any qualitative opinion. Quite frankly over the last few years we see more announcements about the PAK-FA than we see election promises in Aust, the UK and USA combined.

I'm reserving my judgement until I see something of referenced and thus citation worthy. As of today, no matter how enthusiastic the commentary, its all vaporware.

 

[Salty Dog]

Very interesting in indeed.
Same on your other thoughts. Admin: Text deleted. What is with this kind of reply? Either make your intent clearer or run the risk of being perceived as baiting. These kinds of responses are not necessary and unwelcome.

It's into the weeds with this, . . . I pass.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Understood. I did not determine any need for the F-22 by Japan or Israel. This was what I read on each country WRT the F-22.

Your statement does bring up an interesting question:

How does the USA justify the NEED for the F-22 (and F-35)?

The USAF/USN requires a new fighter aircraft to replace the F-15A/B/C/D model fighter and a new multi-role fighter to replace the F-16/F/A-18.

The USAF developed the F-22A through the ATF program which can be read about plenty of places online. The need was expected to counter the increasingly capable Soviet Union. Other "requirements" are being discussed now, but unfortunately the USAF has been a bit of a victim of it's own success in my opinion, by dominating so extensively over the past 30-40 years, they are now finding it somewhat difficult to buy the "shiny toys" the "fighter mafia" want for the new generation.

USAF insists in requires 381 F-22 fighters and the Pentagon has stated that 187 is the maximum it will get...

The F-35 is a different kettle of fish for mine. It will replace the bulk of USAF/USN/USNG and USMC inventory, replacing F-16, F/A-18 and the USMC Harrier II's.

These are rapidly wearing out aircraft (particularly the F/A-18) and need urgent replacement. In addition the USA believes LO aircraft are necessary for survival in future years and it's predominant combat aircraft fleets will provide exactly this.