F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

TrangleC

New Member
Hehe, i see.

And on the topic of this thread:
I'm quite astonished. After all the US congress did lift the export ban on the F-22 and who will they sell it to if not Australia? If they don't sell it to Australia, then probably also not to Japan, South Korea and any other close ally who could and would afford it.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Hehe, i see.

And on the topic of this thread:
I'm quite astonished. After all the US congress did lift the export ban on the F-22 and who will they sell it to if not Australia? If they don't sell it to Australia, then probably also not to Japan, South Korea and any other close ally who could and would afford it.
When did the US Congress do this Trangle?

If Congress has cleared the F22 for export is it the Executive wing of the US Government (President and his cabinet) who have banned its sale?

Cheers
 

TrangleC

New Member
It was in the news (on Defence Talk and other sources) months ago. I remember quoting an article about that in another thread here.... i'll try to find it. Stay tuned.

edit:
http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw060626_1_n.shtml
That's all i found at the moment. I'm pretty sure there was an article somewhere in which they said that the ban was definitely lifted. Hope i can find it.

edit2:
While google-ing i found several articles that say - unlike previous sources - that the Bush administration refused to lift the ban. I don't know enough about internal US politics and procedures, so i can't say whether congress or the president can make such a decision against the other.
 
Last edited:

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
It was in the news (on Defence Talk and other sources) months ago. I remember quoting an article about that in another thread here.... i'll try to find it. Stay tuned.

edit:
http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw060626_1_n.shtml
That's all i found at the moment. I'm pretty sure there was an article somewhere in which they said that the ban was definitely lifted. Hope i can find it.

edit2:
While google-ing if found several articles that say - unlike previous sources - that the Bush administration refused to lift the ban. I don't know enough about internal US politics and procedures, so i can't say whether congress or the president can make such a decision against the other.
Thanks for that information Trangle. :)

Cheers
 

Rich

Member
You are missing the point Rich. The RAAF will make the decision on what A/C best meets their needs. They want the JSF, and i believe that they (the RAAF) are probably a little more aware of its capabilities than any poster on this forum. However, the way the US has AUST jumping through diplomatic hoops at the moment, largely to the disgust of the Australian public, then if Aust wanted to BUY the Space Shuttle or a nuclear Sub,then we deserve a little consideration,not an off the cuff NO! The US bases in Australia were (are) cold war nuke targets. Aust did Not have to let the US build them here. I wonder if NZ would have? I doubt it. Many Australians, myself included are sick of unconditionally backing the US when we get shit on by them in Trade deals,like the subsidised wheat etc. Yes,im no uni grad,writer or even an average speller,so take the piss if you must, but remember where US foregin policy has got you in the 21st centuary....have a happy peace, a time that the US will not have for many many years....Golf Foxtrot to you Rich!
If Golf/Foxtrot means what I think it means then your a fool. In fact after reading your posts and your irrational whining I'm sure of it. Try listening to your countrymen and those more knowledgeable then you.

Like Australia was the only country that could have been nuked in the Cold War. Or the only ally! I see you conveniently forget to mention how we risked American cities to protect allied ones under our nuclear umbrella. Australia isnt the 51'st state of the union and it isnt part of our empire, even if we had one which we dont. She is a proud independent country with a 1st world ,and lethal, military machine with important pieces furnished by American weapons firms. Were Allies and each have independent security concerns. One of our highest being no enemy getting ahold of code, radars, avionics, of the war plane that will let us own the skies for decades.

None of us are going to have a happy peace in the 21'st century pal. Were going to be at war for the rest of our lives no matter what happens. There are a lot of systems we dont sell anyone so this entire argument is pointless. Man I am so tired of accusations and irrational anti-Yank whining on the Internet. I remember the last one and how allies were screaming about how we were going to deny them the code language to fly the F-35.

Which BTW is going to make you the best AF in the region when you get it.

And frankly I am suspect of this entire episode. I
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The F/A-18F will probably not be equipped with JASSM, as this is not a US Navy baselined weapon. We'll probably get JSOW instead, and possibly SLAM-ER... not quite the same unfortunately!

Cheers

Magoo
If true this is a bit of a surprize given the JASSM will be intergrated on the HUGBug. I would think it should be a definate for the Australian F-18Fs (if we get them) regardless of what the USN may do.

Out of curosity is the JASSM intergrated on the f-22?
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
see ya Rich,as always...you know best. As i said before, i dont care which aircraft the RAAF get, but it should be the one they want. Which is JSF.

(by the way rich,i work for a US oil service co. so I have a pretty good idea how,and why US forgein policy works.Particualy in the middle east.)
 

abramsteve

New Member
If Golf/Foxtrot means what I think it means then your a fool. In fact after reading your posts and your irrational whining I'm sure of it. Try listening to your countrymen and those more knowledgeable then you.

Like Australia was the only country that could have been nuked in the Cold War. Or the only ally! I see you conveniently forget to mention how we risked American cities to protect allied ones under our nuclear umbrella. Australia isnt the 51'st state of the union and it isnt part of our empire, even if we had one which we dont. She is a proud independent country with a 1st world ,and lethal, military machine with important pieces furnished by American weapons firms. Were Allies and each have independent security concerns. One of our highest being no enemy getting ahold of code, radars, avionics, of the war plane that will let us own the skies for decades.

None of us are going to have a happy peace in the 21'st century pal. Were going to be at war for the rest of our lives no matter what happens. There are a lot of systems we dont sell anyone so this entire argument is pointless. Man I am so tired of accusations and irrational anti-Yank whining on the Internet. I remember the last one and how allies were screaming about how we were going to deny them the code language to fly the F-35.

Which BTW is going to make you the best AF in the region when you get it.

And frankly I am suspect of this entire episode. I
Well said Rich, you have summed it up nicley.

Magoo: Thanks for the info regarding JASSM on USN SH.

I know little of this system, has/can it be integrated into the F-111 or any other possible intrim fighter/attack aircraft,easier than SH? If so is this a major issue? Considering the SH will have to fill the capability gap left by the 111's....
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Where do you get such ridiculous figures from?
Sorry, I suppose 100:1 sounds a bit ridiculous that would mean the USAF would actually loose an F-22 in combat. The numbers posted by the USAF itself is 108:0 and 140:0.

... the Air Force is touting early results from the F-22's involvement in recent combat exercises. The Air Force claims the aircraft achieved an "unprecedented" kill ratio of 108:0 during the joint Northern Edge exercise, which concluded last week in Alaska. Twelve F-22s deployed for the exercise, which used F-15s, F-16s and F/A-18s to simulate Sukhoi Su-27s and Su-30 Flankers as adversaries.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...?channel=aerospacedaily&id=news/JSFM06196.xml
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Well said Rich, you have summed it up nicley.

Magoo: Thanks for the info regarding JASSM on USN SH.

I know little of this system, has/can it be integrated into the F-111 or any other possible intrim fighter/attack aircraft,easier than SH? If so is this a major issue? Considering the SH will have to fill the capability gap left by the 111's....
The only real issue about integrating the missile onto any modern GPS-weapon capable aircraft is that of separation clearances. The missile is compatible with any MIL-STD 1760 databus that can support JDAM or any other GPS-guided system, so integrating it to the F-111 shouldn't be a huge issue now that this 1760 is in the jet courtesy of the C-4 upgrade.

We'll be doing our own spearation clearances on the HUG Hornet, and these will build upon some preliminary work done by the USN prior to its withdrawal from the program. I'm not sure how far the USN got with the Super, but the JASSM reportedly has similar aerodynamic properties and thereofre, I would assume, clearance issues to that of the JSOW which HAS been cleared on the Super, so the work shouldn't be too prone to risk. Occum?

alexsa said:
Out of curosity is the JASSM intergrated on the f-22?
I don't think it is baselined but it may be included in planned follow-on spiral upgrades. Perhaps an Occum can elaborate here too?

Cheers

Magoo
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The only real issue about integrating the missile onto any modern GPS-weapon capable aircraft is that of separation clearances. The missile is compatible with any MIL-STD 1760 databus that can support JDAM or any other GPS-guided system, so integrating it to the F-111 shouldn't be a huge issue now that this 1760 is in the jet courtesy of the C-4 upgrade.

We'll be doing our own spearation clearances on the HUG Hornet, and these will build upon some preliminary work done by the USN prior to its withdrawal from the program. I'm not sure how far the USN got with the Super, but the JASSM reportedly has similar aerodynamic properties and thereofre, I would assume, clearance issues to that of the JSOW which HAS been cleared on the Super, so the work shouldn't be too prone to risk. Occum?



I don't think it is baselined but it may be included in planned follow-on spiral upgrades. Perhaps an Occum can elaborate here too?

Cheers

Magoo
Just got a tip that apparently JASSM IS being integrated onto the Rhino at China Lake at present. Apparently there is some issue as to whether or not it will be able to carry the weapon on the mid and outer wing pylon, potentially restricting the SH to 2 or 3 weapons only (if 1 were to be carried on the centreline pylon).

Apparently F-15E has a problem with them too, only being able to carry JASSM on the 2x wing pylons and the centreline pylons.

If the JASSM can be carried on the mid wing pylon, this would mean 4x JASSM weapons could be carried by the Rhino. In the publicly available figures there is only a 5% difference in weights. The actual weights may be sufficient or alternatively might be able to be increased relatively easily.

Will be interesting to see anyhow...

Cheer
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I don't think it is baselined but it may be included in planned follow-on spiral upgrades. Perhaps an Occum can elaborate here too?

Cheers

Magoo
I was under the impression that JASSM wouldn't fit within the dimensions of the F-22 missle bays. That a number of the the different strike or attack weapons planned for integration on the F-35 don't fit within a stealthy (clean) F-22, which was one of the difficulties in adapting the F-22 into a strike package from a purely air superiority role.

Also, any speculation on whether the RAAF will re-think the commitment to JASSM, or add the SLAM-ER to inventory? An SH tested a SLAM-ER (in '04, I think) and had a published range of 170 n miles when fired from 40k ft. IIRC, a JASSM is supposed to have a 500km range. Not sure it would make sense to add a 2nd type, unless a number of SLAM-ERs could be carried, though it might make more sense if/when the P-8 MMA enters service.

-Cheers
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I was under the impression that JASSM wouldn't fit within the dimensions of the F-22 missle bays. That a number of the the different strike or attack weapons planned for integration on the F-35 don't fit within a stealthy (clean) F-22, which was one of the difficulties in adapting the F-22 into a strike package from a purely air superiority role.
It would be externally carried, but with a 400km+ range, that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Todjaeger said:
Also, any speculation on whether the RAAF will re-think the commitment to JASSM, or add the SLAM-ER to inventory? An SH tested a SLAM-ER (in '04, I think) and had a published range of 170 n miles when fired from 40k ft. IIRC, a JASSM is supposed to have a 500km range. Not sure it would make sense to add a 2nd type, unless a number of SLAM-ERs could be carried, though it might make more sense if/when the P-8 MMA enters service.
Probably too early to say at this stage, although I think the RAAF has already bought and paid for most of its JASSM rounds. SLAM-ER is a real possibility for the Supers, but that shouldn't put too much strain on the support system as they're basically a Harpoon back end and warhead.

Cheers

Magoo
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
It would be externally carried, but with a 400km+ range, that shouldn't be too much of an issue.



Probably too early to say at this stage, although I think the RAAF has already bought and paid for most of its JASSM rounds. SLAM-ER is a real possibility for the Supers, but that shouldn't put too much strain on the support system as they're basically a Harpoon back end and warhead.

Cheers

Magoo
That idea wouldn't be the source of the rumours a while back (before JASSM was announced as the winner of the FOSOW program) that BOTH would be bought would it?

If so, it's a SOLID indication of how long a Rhino purchase has been planned... Could also explain why they're not bothering to integrate JASSM onto the P-3C as the SLAM-ER as you pointed out, would probably be far easier and whilst offering less capability, it would still provide good capability...
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
If the "no" F-22 Raptors for Oz debate needs to be continued at all at present, here is an excellent summary of the situation at present and written by a leading Defence Magazine in Australia without discernable bias (to me) in this argument:

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=c6930a9a446ea9d2400731d4fcad40d2
Thanks for the link AD. I agree that it an excellent summary. I thought that there were a few fairly provocative comments about Air Power Australia. It seemed to be suggested that there are some ulterior motives for APA support of an F22/Evolved F111 solution.

I was interested today in comments by the Director General New Air Combat Capability, Air Vice-Marshal John Harvey, that appeared on the ADF Online Media Room today.

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/SpeechTpl.cfm?CurrentId=6393

I think it gives a good summary of where the RAAF is at present with the JSF, the SH and the F-22. He doesn't comment on non availability of the F-22 but instead reaffirms why the RAAF wants an all F-35 force.


BTW it is getting difficult to work out where to post comments on the JSF, F-22, FA-18F, etc. There seem to be a number of threads which are ending up dealing with the same issues.


Cheers
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I was interested today in comments by the Director General New Air Combat Capability, Air Vice-Marshal John Harvey, that appeared on the ADF Online Media Room today.



Director General New Air Combat Capability

Air Vice-Marshal John Harvey


The Joint Strike Fighter Project continues to make very good progress ...

As well as the aircraft itself and the development of the systems, now eight of the nine original partner countries have joined the next phase of the project, as Australia did in December. The ninth country, Denmark, will join the next phase before the end of this month. So, aircraft wise and programmatics, it's progressing very well.

I just returned from the US where I took part in what's called a Coalition Warfare Event where we had all nine partner countries in the JSF program, flying together in high fidelity simulators conducting advanced missions against a whole range of future threats which, again, gives very good confidence in the progress of the aircraft and the capability of the aircraft.

In the context of the recent US Defense Budget or the President's Budget that went to Congress, it's true there was a proposed reduction in the ramp-up rate, or the acquisition of JSF in the early years of the program, but there is no plan for the US Services to reduce the total number of aircraft. So any cost implications associated with the reduced ramp-up rate, they're already taken into account in our submission to Government at first pass last year.



Now, a lot of the speculation in the media is about the JSF versus the F-22 and I think the focus has been down to those two aircraft because there are only two fifth generation aircraft. Two aircraft, obviously both highly capable. The F-22 is specialised more in the air-to-air role and it can't do the full range of air-to-air and air-to-ground tasks that we want of the Joint Strike Fighter.

The Joint Strike Fighter has a wider range of sensors. It can carry larger weapons, a wider range of weapons and a total carriage of more weapons than the F-22.

I guess those who ask the question… there's been discussion in the press again about why shouldn't we just have an all F-22 fleet. I think it's pretty obvious if the F-22 could do everything, the USAF wouldn't need the JSF as well. So they recognise the F-22 can't do everything.

And for those who argue that the F-22 would actually be a cheaper solution, again, you can ask the question did the USAF plan to buy ten times as many JSF as they do F-22s.

Our assessment is the F-22 costs around twice as much as the Joint Strike Fighter and that assessment was supported by a recent ASPI report.

While we tend to focus to a certain extent on the platform itself, the total air combat capability is more than just a platform. It's a total system that the JSF will be integrated into. For Australia, integrating with the AEW&C aircraft, the new tanker aircraft, the ground support systems and the total networked ADF will be what provides us with a capability edge well into the future.

There's also been a fair bit of press discussion recently about the consideration of the potential acquisition of a squadron of Super Hornet aircraft. Defence has always made the point and is still consistent that our long-term aim is an all JSF fleet to be the core of our air combat capability. But we've also acknowledged that the transition to that is quite complex task with a lot of moving pieces there.

There's the ongoing sustainment of the F1-11, working out when that should retire. The upgrade projects to the F-18, of which there are quite a few; the AEW&C, Vigilair(*) programs. So quite a few pieces there, and we've maintained options in the background all along in case we needed to do something if they looked like there'd be too much risk of a transition gap there at all.

And when the JSF was considered in the context of First Pass, Government looked at the options and they asked us to flesh out one of those a bit more; which was the Super Hornet option. So, we're providing more detail on that and Government will make the decision on whether or not they think that's required in the near future.

Again, there have been critics of the F-18 out there as a future aircraft. I'll just make the point that the F-18 is a highly advanced fourth generation aircraft. It will be in-service with the US Navy until around 2030, and it will gradually start being replaced by the JSF, or complemented by the JSF, from about 2015 onwards.

So, the Super Hornet is really the US Navy's frontline aircraft and it will be for quite some time yet. So, it's a highly capable aircraft and certainly capable of dealing with the likely threats that we see out there in the medium term.
http://www.defence.gov.au/media/Spee...CurrentId=6393


I think it gives a good summary of where the RAAF is at present with the JSF, the SH and the F-22, ignoring the issue of non availability and reaffirming why the RAAF wants an all F-35 force.

Cheers
 

W800i

New Member
With the utmost respect to AVM Harvey I am fairly underwhelmed regarding his assurances.

I reiterate again that up until last year these leaders informed us(joe public) that no capability gap would appear and no bridging/ interim fighter would be required! He now is suggesting that a plan B was in the picture all along in the background. Where is the credibility in this statement?

The question as to whether the USAF has cut number is a point I will concede to him. Budget numbers are notoriously rubbery. However as he stated in his note any effect on numbers will only effect the early years of procurement. So when is the RAAF due to recieve its first aircraft, 2012, 13,14,15 ??????. Or in other words the budgetery cut will have its maximum effect early on precisely when the RAAF are due to recieve their first aircraft. Of course we have been informed that 2012 was the in service date but recent comments from Dennis Hughes have put this date out to a more realistic 2018. More rubbery figures!!!
This has allways been the crux of the issue with purchasing the F-35 in my view. We are buying it to damned early.

Further to this is the lack of competition being forced on manufacturers and the almost slavish devotion to a aircraft or as more appropriately defined as a system that is as yet in very very early development. Keep in mind that the aircraft flying currently is not actually what the RAAF and other customers will receive as these aircraft are pre the weight reduction redesign.

As Magoo quite rightly corrected me the development problems with the F-22 werent all software related with some being hardware related. I also would add that the F-22 has had other problems including I believe a contractor related issue with the structure in the rear of the aircraft, an embarrassing incident where a pilot had to be cut out of a cockpit as a $250000 cannopy had jammed shut and some recent software bugs that held up a Japanese deployment.

Considering how early on its development the JSF is, is anyone willing to bet that it will go without problems or hold ups. If the RAAF were to be given access to the Raptor I have alot more confidence that everything on board would work as advertised as it is currently in service and having all of the usual teething problems worked through. Simulations although complex and advanced are just that, simulations. They dont take into account stupidity, stuff ups or people having bad days on a manufacturing floor.

I read Ben Richs book where he stated that one day he was walking through the assembly hall at the Skunk Works and saw a worker putting a bolt in the wrong way. When he questioned him as to why he was doing that he was told that his way was the correct way of putting bolts in despite the technical drawing stating the opposite for good reasons. He sacked him. An F-1117 crashed when a wing fell off during level flight after maintenance workers put the bolts in the wrong way around?? AVM Harvey dont put too much faith in shiny, sales spruiking simulators.

The number one concern for the RAAF is air superiority in my view. The fact that the F-22 cant do all of the ground pounding stuff is of little concern to me. It can do some of it but not all. I thnk it is agiven that over time the Raptor will be upgraded as the F-15 was. Who knows what capabilities a Raptor will have in ten years time when the JSF is only just getting into squadron service with anyone.

The RAAF have had a two aircraft fleet for a long time. A top tier F-22 with a second tier ground pounder is a better option in my opinion. If the yanks wont sell us the F-22 as the Def min has informed us than the whole shebang should be reopened to competition from around the world. Let the AIR 6000 experts and DSTO scientifically and expertly inform us of what is the appropriate system for the RAAF rather than a sales spruiking yank contractor and a politically motivated jobs programme.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
I loved the question and answers at the end.

He answered a question with a question regarding the cost of the F-22. His answer was "why do you think the USAF are buying more JSF than F-22?"

Absolute stupidity, does he really believe that the they are buying very little F-22's because it costs twice as much?

The are buying hardly any F-22's because they cannot afford both the JSF and F-22. The F-22 was heavily cut simply so the JSF can be ordered in enough numbers to make it still cost effective.

If the USAF cut the F-22 to only 380 aircraft, they would have then ordered very few JSF aircraft and would have completely stuffed up the JSF program. As Australia shouldn't care if the JSF program was a failure we should buy the aircraft that suits.

Making false excuses is pretty poor form.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
As Australia shouldn't care if the JSF program was a failure we should buy the aircraft that suits.
We can only buy what is available and the RAAF thinks the aircraft that suits its needs best is the F-35.

I think a lot of people in Australia, both within and outside the RAAF, will care a great deal if the JSF program fails. I am one who would love Australia to have a mixed force of F-22s and F-35s. I accept we may never get F-22s. If by some miracle we do then great. If not I would like to see an aircraft like the Eurofighter Typhoon join the F-35s to look after the air superiority role. But whatever happens I want the RAAF to get an F35 that meets all its planned performance specifications and comes in close enough to its budget to be able to be purchased in reasonable numbers.

Cheers
 
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