F-35B/C - Naval Air Discussions (USN & USMC)

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colay1

Member
Probably similar to what Neo felt when plugged into the Matrix for the first time.:D
Speed and maneuverability don't even rate a mention.
 
C

colay1

Member
Not the typical workload normally I would normally associate with fighter pilots, interacting with the infantry in such an integrated fashion. The F-35 is just going to make everyone and every thing around it that much more effective without even having to expend a single piece of ordnance.

From gf''s link:

As an example, Bailey said he was at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center Twentynine Palms, Calif., to observe an infantry officers course last year, where officers riding in the back of MV-22 Ospreys in a raid scenario had tablets that were tied in to an F-35. Bailey and others observed from a simulated F-35 – a room with multiple computer screens that showed all the information an F-35 pilot would have at his disposal while flying. A Marine in one Osprey could change the plan for the raid based on new information, and that change was sent to both the tablets in the other Ospreys and to the F-35 pilot

“The plan changes and I can send him that change in a burst, not try to get on the radio and go through a satellite and come back; I can just send him the exact changes and modifications,” Bailey said.
“And so you pull all that capability together, and you can see how that platform will be able to revolutionize the battlefield and give the Marine on the ground a capability that we’ve never had before. I think that’s a game-changer when you start talking distributed operations and you start talking the environment of the future.You want to be able to out-cycle your enemy, and I think this will give us the opportunity to out-cycle our enemy in terms of speed, in terms of application of information that comes in,” he added.
 
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colay1

Member
The Chinese and NoKors are going to be thrilled at the news.:D And it only gets better once the JASDF and RoKAF field their F-35s in the not-so-distant future.
 
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Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
Why will F-35 make US aircraft carriers more lethal?
Pilots Say F-35 Carrier Launch Problem Is Safety Concern
Fleet pilots say the violent vertical oscillations seen during carrier launches of the U.S. Navy’s F-35 variant are a safety concern, even as the Pentagon races to fix the problem. One of the most critical and dangerous phases of flight for Navy pilots is the launch, when an aircraft is shot from the carrier by a steam-driven catapult. For the F-35C carrier variant, pilots discovered a complex problem during recent at-sea testing: excessive vertical oscillations, or a bouncing effect, during takeoff. Pilots who conducted training onboard the carrier USS George Washington during the latest set of ship trials said these oscillations were “a safety concern,” the Director of Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E) wrote in its most recent annual report. “Excessive vertical oscillations during catapult launches make the F-35C operationally unsuitable for carrier operations, according to fleet pilots,” DOT&E wrote. Pilots reported the oscillations were so severe that they could not read flight-critical data, DOT&E said. The oscillations caused most pilots to lock their harness during launch, which made emergency switches hard to reach. The pilots deemed this situation “unacceptable and unsafe,” DOT&E wrote. The Navy has informed the F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) that it considers this problem a “must fix” deficiency. The problem occurs primarily because the mechanism in the nose gear is not “damping out” the oscillations from the cable release quickly enough, JPO Chief Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan told reporters during a December round table. “The first thing that happens when those Navy seamen hook the airplane up is they hook the nose gear up to a latching mechanism, and then they pull down and the airplane kind of noses down, all that tension is being held,” Bogdan said. “Then boom! When the cable releases and you start going down the deck, because the airplane has been held down like that the airplane [bounces], and that’s primarily because the mechanism in the nose gear is not damping out the oscillations enough or quick enough.” Bogdan downplayed the problem, saying the oscillations only occur at very light gross takeoff weights. “At medium weights and heavy weights you don’t see this problem at all,” Bogdan said. “If an F-35C is going to combat it is not going to take off lightweight. It’s going to take off with everything it needs to go to combat, so you won’t see that problem.” The Pentagon is currently investigating the best way to fix the problem. One option is to redesign the nose gear, a potentially expensive and time-consuming solution. A long-term mechanical fix is “probably a couple of years off,” so in the meantime the JPO is looking at operational solutions like changing the way a pilot holds on during takeoff, Bogdan said.
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I never heard of other CAT launched fighters when totally unarmed or w/o drop tanks having the same problem. Any thoughts?
 
V

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Tsavo Lion said:
Why will F-35 make US aircraft carriers more lethal?
I never heard of other CAT launched fighters when totally unarmed or w/o drop tanks having the same problem. Any thoughts?
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You do actually realise what T&E is for don't you? They look for problems that will adversely affect operational performance and safety, those problems get fixed, are verified as fixed, the capability is certified and goes onto IOC, FOC etc. Been happening this way for decades and works much better than building a still very developmental A model, and finding problems through trial and error, in service, at the expense on service personnel's lives.
 
SpazSinbad

SpazSinbad

Active Member
In reply to the long screed posted by 'Tsavo Lion' above:

Prior to the clarification other reports were saying IF the F-35C pilots locked their harness tight during catapulting then they could not EJECT (reach the ejection handle)! Thank goodness that was really that some emergency buttons (such as EMERGENCY JETTISON of stores) could not be reached. This aspect is still important in case of an 'off the catapult flying problem' requiring underwing or even bomb bay weapon load to be jettisoned, in an effort to save the aircraft.

I would imagine that day catapults at light weight are only during Day CarQuals, these would be even more of a problem for an F-35C future inexperienced catapult pilot - less so perhaps for more experienced pilots on other aircraft.

These VFA-101 pilots are not newbies so their opinion counts - even above LtGen Bogdan who has not been a carrier pilot. Getting night catapulted into a dark hole without a horizon is no fun, with Spatial Disorientation (SD) a real possibility (a few 'warrie' stories' could follow). Previous carrier aircraft did not have the vHUD in the HMDS and I'm guessing the pilots complain about this aspect. Would a work around have them only look at the PCD (Panoramic Cockpit Display) during and just after the night catapult?

In any event as Bogdan says it is only a problem at light catapult launch weights. However this is likely the weight when Night Carrier Qualification is carried out. I can only guess how these are done with the F-35C, until details are made known. At moment only F-35C test pilots have Night CarQualled - now we know why, in one respect, whilst there are still issues with the 'green glow' in the newest version of the HMDS, when at sea at night. IT REALLY IS BLACK OUT THERE - A BLACK HOLE - no horizon.

Perhaps there are workarounds it seems, however without knowing more details it can be difficult to understand the issues. Launching at heavy weight at night, then dumping fuel perhaps for Night CarQuals, with hot refuelling after arrest, to get the weight back up, could be one workaround; but that may not be practical.

One thing to keep in mind: with the DAS (Distributed Aperture System) the view of the carrier from afar at night - with a visible horizon - is THE dramatic GAME CHANGER. Along with all the other benefits of the DELTA FLIGHT PATH [Magic Carpet is the new Super Hornet equivalent tech], carrier landings by night and particularly AT NIGHT are going to be a lot less stressful - notwithstanding the current issues with catapulting. AND AFAIK the DAS view of the horizon at night before / during catapulting will be very helpful indeed (O for it in my day) to help with any SD.
 
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SpazSinbad

SpazSinbad

Active Member
AND another thing.... A few years back IIRC DOT&E were making dire predictions that the F-35C AHS (Arresting Hook System) could not be fixed because YADA Yada yada. [ByTheBy the F-35A now has an emergency hook arrest issue that will probably require a redesign).

Well blow me down if the AHS for the F-35C was fixed, tested ashore and afloat with unbelievable success. Look for a future F-35C catapult fix - coming to a CVN near you - soon.
 
SpazSinbad

SpazSinbad

Active Member
A simulated example of the DAS view of flat decks at night video sadly does not show the horizon, except very briefly at the start of the LHA section. Being able to be orientated in an otherwise black hole is very very useful for boarding rate, especially on a CVN.

F-35B & F-35C DAS Flat Deck Views CVN & LHA Magic Bus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tliDglNdz2w
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Could this vertical oscillation problem with light loads using a steam catapult be less of a problem with a EMALS? IIRC, the EMALS offers more flexibility on how much launching power is applied. Since the Nimitz class will be around for some time yet, a solution for the steam catapult launching of F-35Cs will be required (and soon). With the C version delay along with the aging F-18s, Boeing is no doubt ready to aggressively pursue more SH/Growler orders. NG may be knocking on the USN's door again with the X-47. LM really needs to get its stuff together.
 
SpazSinbad

SpazSinbad

Active Member
No doubt we'll be told in due course IF there is an F-35C EMALS nose gear oscillation problem. Even with steam catapults this is not a big issue - as noted by Lt.Gen. Bogdan - there are workarouds. As demonstrated by the AHS fix - the fix will be there eventually by whatever means. USN IOC is not for some time and I'll guess the reason 'why' this problem did not gain more attention - until now. Here is the problem description which is less to do with the catapult and more to do with the nose gear reacting to 'release' - nose gear damping solution - anyone?.
"...he problem occurs primarily because the mechanism in the nose gear is not “damping out” the oscillations from the cable release quickly enough, JPO Chief Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan told reporters during a December round table.

“The first thing that happens when those Navy seamen hook the airplane up is they hook the nose gear up to a latching mechanism, and then they pull down and the airplane kind of noses down, all that tension is being held,” Bogdan said. “Then boom! When the cable releases and you start going down the deck, because the airplane has been held down like that the airplane [bounces], and that’s primarily because the mechanism in the nose gear is not damping out the oscillations enough or quick enough.”

Bogdan downplayed the problem, saying the oscillations only occur at very light gross takeoff weights. “At medium weights and heavy weights you don’t see this problem at all,” Bogdan said. “If an F-35C is going to combat it is not going to take off lightweight. It’s going to take off with everything it needs to go to combat, so you won’t see that problem.”..." http://aviationweek.com/defense/pil...m=email&elq2=73c2f17711484b9f96183586ca659561
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H

hauritz

Well-Known Member
John Fedup said:
Could this vertical oscillation problem with light loads using a steam catapult be less of a problem with a EMALS? IIRC, the EMALS offers more flexibility on how much launching power is applied. Since the Nimitz class will be around for some time yet, a solution for the steam catapult launching of F-35Cs will be required (and soon). With the C version delay along with the aging F-18s, Boeing is no doubt ready to aggressively pursue more SH/Growler orders. NG may be knocking on the USN's door again with the X-47. LM really needs to get its stuff together.
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More Superhornets could be a real option. With the USN and Trump not necessarily being big F-35 fans it wouldn't surprise me to see additional SHs bought.

It would keep the Super Hornet production line alive and send a message to Lockheed Martin at the same time.
 
C

colay1

Member
Buying more SHs is a shame really. When will they actually be delivered to the fleet, 2-3 years from now?
Buy F-35Cs now and when they are delivered Blk 3F will already have been certified providing all the capabilities required for IOC.
The Navy Aviation community (including decision makers) is dominated by aviators many of whom grew up flying the Hornet/SuperHornet and Boeing knows how to capitalize on this.
 
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