F-35 Program - General Discussion

[RobWilliams]

Depends on when the UK wants the type to be in service, with respect to the US the schedule is as follows

• USMC: mid-2015 with Block 2B
• USAF: mid-2016 with Block3I (originally going to be full capability block 3F in mid-2017)
• USN: mid-2018

I'd imagine around the Block 3 mark myself, IIRC 617 Sqdn will stand up in 2016 as our first operational squadron so around there.

 

[Volkodav]

Initial rumours about UK F-35 order and costs. £2.5bn for 14 aircraft, sounds big but read the following



BBC News - UK to spend £2.5bn on F-35 fighters

So it's including a bunch of secondary costs too. If the numbers are correct (and we'll probably find out soon) then with respect to the cost of the aircraft that's some good unit price numbers.

All in all, depending how much total fleet support contracts are in this order, then that's a really good deal.

*presumably that's excluding engine cost, as the A has only recently reached sub-$100mn.

That's what the average person usually misses, it doesn't mater whether you have 10 or 100 airframes, there are overheads that will cost the same upfront no matter what. In fact sometimes a smaller fleet can make the overheads more expensive as their will be no economy of scale in some operations and a lot of idle time for some very expensive equipment and the personnel who operate it.

 

[harryriedl]

That's what the average person usually misses, it doesn't mater whether you have 10 or 100 airframes, there are overheads that will cost the same upfront no matter what. In fact sometimes a smaller fleet can make the overheads more expensive as their will be no economy of scale in some operations and a lot of idle time for some very expensive equipment and the personnel who operate it.

Would some of the cost be down payment for the next block, as there are still plans for 130 odd craft and I don't have a clue how the payment structure works as it could give these very expensive orders with much cheaper follow on orders.

The UK C17 deal was initially very expensive(lease and everything) but the later orders seems just the cost of the frames. Wondering if the F35's are the same.

 

[RobWilliams]

The UK C17 deal was initially very expensive(lease and everything) but the later orders seems just the cost of the frames. Wondering if the F35's are the same.

Certainly seems that way if we're paying for lifetime support contracts for our entire fleet of F-35's in our first batch.

LRIP-9 is our earliest slots as up to 7 have been contracted for and LRIP-8 have had long lead items placed with work on the contract expected to be finished soon. That production slot has 4 British F-35's already down in it and if the buy is 14 then 10 left for LRIP-9 onwards

Judging by the following link, LRIP-8 deliveries are due to be ~2016, as is 617 squadron would form with 5 aircraft (1 LRIP-7 & 4 LRIP-8 with Block 2B/3i software), so if we're talking "full squadron" of 12 aircraft then that probably won't happen until 2018 which is when the MOD wants land based IOC which seems fair enough.

As is, it's still unclear about squadron sizes, Harrier were 9 and other fast jets 12 so it's unclear

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012annual_psr/WERTH.pdf

 

[jack412]

It's refreshing to hear what is happening


Joint Strike Fighter Roundtable: What Do Pilots Who Are Flying It Today Have to Say?


[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=461ug8Jjn-0"]Joint Strike Fighter Roundtable: What Do Pilots Who Are Flying It Today Have to Say? - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[Air Force Brat]

It's refreshing to hear what is happening


Joint Strike Fighter Roundtable: What Do Pilots Who Are Flying It Today Have to Say?


Joint Strike Fighter Roundtable: What Do Pilots Who Are Flying It Today Have to Say? - YouTube

More good news from Luke AFB, the first of 144 F-35As of eight partner nations touched down today 3/10/14, you may recall that this aircraft, AF-46 is the 100th F-35 airframe produced, stay tuned for more good news on our little ThunderHogge II, it will pack a punch. Luke will eventually house lots of training activities, as the F-35s replace the F-16s, thanks to the beautiful flying weather.

 

[Volkodav]

A pretty good write up in News Limited, surprisingly good actually
Fighter pilots are ecstatic about the RAAF’s next generation Joint Strike Fighter | News.com.au

 

[Air Force Brat]

It's refreshing to hear what is happening


Joint Strike Fighter Roundtable: What Do Pilots Who Are Flying It Today Have to Say?


Joint Strike Fighter Roundtable: What Do Pilots Who Are Flying It Today Have to Say? - YouTube

Thanks for posting Jack, I finally got to see this video and hear the interchange among the guys on the panel, and they provide a great deal of integrity about the capability of this aircraft, particularly as this aircraft moves to the boat and into IOC first as the Marines bring up the B, but also as the C will begin its carrier quals in October. One point that grabbed me was that behind the boat the auto-pilot will likely be flying the aircraft, with the pilot as the "fail-safe" rather than vice-versa??

 

[Air Force Brat]

A pretty good write up in News Limited, surprisingly good actually
Fighter pilots are ecstatic about the RAAF’s next generation Joint Strike Fighter | News.com.au

Thanks for posting Volkodav, the F-35 is achieving the maturity and capability that we have all hoped for,,,,, one question I do have for more informed sources here? do you forsee the possibility that Australia might opt for some B's to operate off the Canberra???

 

[t68]

Thanks for posting Volkodav, the F-35 is achieving the maturity and capability that we have all hoped for,,,,, one question I do have for more informed sources here? do you forsee the possibility that Australia might opt for some B's to operate off the Canberra???

One can only hope that we can get a couple of ASW Carriers, here’s looking at you Japan if Collins MKII comes with a Japanese propulsion system maybe we could get them to build 2x Izumo-class with ski jump and of course that gives options for Canberra as well if needed.

But that’s about as likely to happen as the Kiwis getting on board the F35 program. My gut feeling is once F35B matures in the future we may see Squadron of them but not before 2025 and deploy on Canberra on as needed basis, you never know.

 

[Volkodav]

As I understand it the Canberras have differences in internal arrangements to the JCS1 that preclude the F-35B being an easy option. As t68 indicated a new platform would be a better way to go but has Buckleys chance of getting up.

 

[ADMk2]

Thanks for posting Volkodav, the F-35 is achieving the maturity and capability that we have all hoped for,,,,, one question I do have for more informed sources here? do you forsee the possibility that Australia might opt for some B's to operate off the Canberra???

No. Bunkerage and magazine arrangements are "wrong". A UAV / UCAV system and an AEW&C helo-based capability (in support of SM-6) are definite possibilities however.

Still, wrong thread for that sort of talk. RAN thread is more appropriate to continue this.

 

[the road runner]

LM have put up a good video on training at Elgin AFB

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7IIksCxxM0"]F-35 Training in High Gear at Eglin AFB - YouTube[/nomedia]

Will other nations get a replica training JSF for ground crews and maintainers
(like the one that is in 2.20 of the video posted?)

 

[Air Force Brat]

LM have put up a good video on training at Elgin AFB

F-35 Training in High Gear at Eglin AFB - YouTube

Will other nations get a replica training JSF for ground crews and maintainers
(like the one that is in 2.20 of the video posted?)

Thanks for posting road runner, I am quite certain those maintenance simulators will be a big part of everyones training, and one of the cool things about when the training moves to Luke, is that everyone will be "sharing aircraft" as well in the training environment. All the partners will have aircraft based there as it will soon be the training headquarters due to the great flying weather, but they will be using aircraft out of a "pool", which should make training a much smoother process, as you won't have to wait on your own bird if it is "down" for maintenance, this will be a novel concept.

 

[RobWilliams]

GAO’s F-35 SAR Estimate Plunges $11.5 Billion; EELV Costs Soar $28.1 Billion « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

WASHINGTON: The most expensive conventional weapons program in history just scored a major win, with the F-35 program’s estimated acquisition costs plunging $11.5 billion. This is no program estimate that critics might savage. This comes from the Government Accountability Office’s definitive Selected Acquisition Report.

“The contractor uses statistical process controls as one means to assess critical manufacturing processes. Twenty five percent of those processes are currently judged capable of consistently producing quality parts at the best practice standards,” the report says. “Production efforts have improved as the production line continues to show efficiencies and quality metrics show positive trends. However, in 2013, problems with engine hoses, engine turbines, and specialty metals halted production deliveries for three months. In 2013, 35 planes were delivered to the government—eight less than originally planned. Aircraft deliveries were postponed for one month while the runway at the final assembly facility was resurfaced.

Who would have thought it, as production ramps up then the efficiency of producing the aircraft increases and the unit cost thereby drops. So all those people who were saying the F-35 would be 200million a pop could possibly be wrong?

 

[ADMk2]

GAO’s F-35 SAR Estimate Plunges $11.5 Billion; EELV Costs Soar $28.1 Billion « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary



Who would have thought it, as production ramps up then the efficiency of producing the aircraft increases and the unit cost thereby drops. So all those people who were saying the F-35 would be 200million a pop could possibly be wrong?

Depends on how you account for these things. An F-35A with an engine costs about $120m a pop at present contracted rates and that price is declining.

Most detractors however love to include support, infrastructure, training assets, weapons etc into the "total" cost of the F-35 which is where the $200m figure comes from.

They of course then don't include these extra costs for their own favourite platforms, just stating the actual platform cost. Which is why they can argue (disingenuously obviously) the cost-benefit to whatever aircraft they like.

As an example, I did some sums a while back which showed that RAAF's Super Hornets, if you use the "F-35 detractor" method of evaluating cost actually came in at about AUD $208m a pop...

Of course broadsheets aren't usually interested in providing absolutely honest figures, they want headline grabbers.

BS and the other morons seemingly want the same thing...

 

[ADMk2]

Just a few nice pics of a test F-35 doing some formation flying with a pair of Eurofighter Typhoons.

Love being able to compare the F135 to the EJ200's... That thing is HUGE...

 

[ADMk2]

Just a few nice pics of a test F-35 doing some formation flying with a pair of Eurofighter Typhoons.

Love being able to compare the F135 to the EJ200's... That thing is HUGE...

And another...

 

[King Wally]

Just a few nice pics of a test F-35 doing some formation flying with a pair of Eurofighter Typhoons.

Love being able to compare the F135 to the EJ200's... That thing is HUGE...

Europe invested heavily in the Typhoon, I'll be interested to know what the UK and other duel F-35/Typhoon customers think once they start juggling both in their force mix. I know it was the STOVL that sold the Poms on the F-35 direction (Naval Air Requirement etc) but can't help but wonder if they will start to see more and more advantages once their on hand?

PS - Does anyone know what the pods are on the wing tips of the Typhoons? I'm not a real expert on euro-fighters? Self Answer EDIT* "These pods are part of the aircraft’s defensive aids sub-system, which provides electronic defence. The pod on the right wing tip houses towed radar decoys..."

 

[ADMk2]

Europe invested heavily in the Typhoon, I'll be interested to know what the UK and other duel F-35/Typhoon customers think once they start juggling both in their force mix. I know it was the STOVL that sold the Poms on the F-35 direction (Naval Air Requirement etc) but can't help but wonder if they will start to see more and more advantages once their on hand?

PS - Does anyone know what the pods are on the wing tips of the Typhoons? I'm not a real expert on euro-fighters?

Electronic counter-measures and EW self-defence systems (chaff, flares, decoys etc).