F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

[Crusader2000]

Not too convinced of what?

The basic performance parameters of the aircraft are known.

The fact that it IS one of only 2 VLO fighters in the world is known.

The fact that it WILL be cheap, due to economies of scale if nothing else, IS known.

What else doesn't convince you?

Funny, all of the JSF Partners fully support the F-35 Program. As a matter of fact the last two Australian Administration continue support the program. Just recently Norway and the Netherlands backed the F-35 as being the best choice! Let's see Israel wants 25 with options for 50 more...........the list just goes on and on and on.


Right at this moment no one has left the program or even remotely likely too!


Seems strange that the people that have true access support the F-35......While, the one that have little idea don't. Which, in my book speaks volumes.

 

[Crusader2000]

They're buying into the project plus the project includes their own developments.

There's no shock - only posturing.

Fly-away F-35A = 58-63 M USD

Compare that to the Typhoon which is the only program that is remotely similar...........

 

[Feanor]

Funny, all of the JSF Partners fully support the F-35 Program. As a matter of fact the last two Australian Administration continue support the program. Just recently Norway and the Netherlands backed the F-35 as being the best choice! Let's see Israel wants 25 with options for 50 more...........the list just goes on and on and on.


Right at this moment no one has left the program or even remotely likely too!


Seems strange that the people that have true access support the F-35......While, the one that have little idea don't. Which, in my book speaks volumes.

Simple. There is no real alternative. They need a 5th gen platform with multi-role capability. The JSF is currently their only choice. India, which has a close defense development relationship with Russia, has decided to latch onto the PAK-FA program quite possibly because at the moment it looks like a cheaper platform (not to mention that political implications are also significant). However other nations with less ties to Russia, and less trust in Russian weapons development don't really have the option of relying on the PAK-FA. The Chinese 5th gen programs are even further off at this time, and even more politically controversial. This leaves the JSF uncontested. They might not like the price tag, but there isn't much they can do.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Simple. There is no real alternative. They need a 5th gen platform with multi-role capability. The JSF is currently their only choice. India, which has a close defense development relationship with Russia, has decided to latch onto the PAK-FA program quite possibly because at the moment it looks like a cheaper platform (not to mention that political implications are also significant). However other nations with less ties to Russia, and less trust in Russian weapons development don't really have the option of relying on the PAK-FA. The Chinese 5th gen programs are even further off at this time, and even more politically controversial. This leaves the JSF uncontested. They might not like the price tag, but there isn't much they can do.

Well you could opt for a 4.5th gen platform. The problem is most advanced 45th gen platforms are in fact more expensive than non LRIP F-35's. The Lightning is not uncontested, and the continuing sales of Typhoon (well a few anyway) F-15E BII and F/A-18F BII indicate that. However the capability the F-35 provides combined with the reasonable price tag and supportability make it extremely tempting.

 

[Crusader2000]

Simple. There is no real alternative. They need a 5th gen platform with multi-role capability. The JSF is currently their only choice. India, which has a close defense development relationship with Russia, has decided to latch onto the PAK-FA program quite possibly because at the moment it looks like a cheaper platform (not to mention that political implications are also significant). However other nations with less ties to Russia, and less trust in Russian weapons development don't really have the option of relying on the PAK-FA. The Chinese 5th gen programs are even further off at this time, and even more politically controversial. This leaves the JSF uncontested. They might not like the price tag, but there isn't much they can do.

Clearly, the F-35 is the only choice if you want a 5th Generation in the Western World. Yet, you would have to believe that the F-35 is better than any 4.5 Generation Fighter to make that jump! Which, I doubt many of a Su-35, Typhoon, Rafale, or Gripen NG Supporter would do easily.......IMO

 

[Feanor]

Well you could opt for a 4.5th gen platform. The problem is most advanced 45th gen platforms are in fact more expensive than non LRIP F-35's. The Lightning is not uncontested, and the continuing sales of Typhoon (well a few anyway) F-15E BII and F/A-18F BII indicate that. However the capability the F-35 provides combined with the reasonable price tag and supportability make it extremely tempting.

The reasons behind continuing sales are more related to the time table, then to capability or even cost differentials in my opinion. When will the F-35 production line be open for potential customers that aren't currently in the program?

 

[gf0012-aust]

The reasons behind continuing sales are more related to the time table, then to capability or even cost differentials in my opinion.

For existing partners thats true -

When will the F-35 production line be open for potential customers that aren't currently in the program?

It would mean an export derivative - as the current partners are covered by ITARs provisions. A new non partner custmer would mean a very lengthy assessment of the sensitive side of the capability - and that means State, Executive and potentially Congressional involvement.

So, the current JSF just cannot be "onsold" to new customers as it stands.

 

[Feanor]

It would mean an export derivative - as the current partners are covered by ITARs provisions. A new non partner custmer would mean a very lengthy assessment of the sensitive side of the capability - and that means State, Executive and potentially Congressional involvement.

So, the current JSF just cannot be "onsold" to new customers as it stands.

Which would also help explain the continued sales of advanced F-18/F-15/F-16 fighters.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Which would also help explain the continued sales of advanced F-18/F-15/F-16 fighters.

The assessment process might get fastracked for existing allies not in the current JSF tranche, depending on their current technology access levels - but any ITARs related material must go through the Executive and by association, ticked by Congress and approved by State.

Also, being a US ally will not necessarily mean access into JSF

 

[King_Typhoon]

is true USA u-turn on f35 transfer software and technology untill other new president come in and take decisional?

what if they reject transfer, so british will go plan b and dump jsf in the bin to create eurofighter typhoon navalism and maybe (unlikely) few BAe system Replica use stealth roles?

if they reject it will be unfair on british they pour load money more that else tiers partner as bush promise sorted JSF transfer, now it u-turn twice time.

let hope transfer, is accept to keep production still on.

Danny

 

[macman]

You guys just kill me on price of the F-35. Come on the average is going to be $135 Million. Which, is more than the larger F-22. The F-22 is currently approved for just 183 Aircraft! Even if the talk is true that the US Goverment will approve 60 more that would still only be 243 aircraft in total! The F-35 on the otherhand will easily reach in the thousand and was design from the outset to be much cheaper than the F-22 to build.............


Its worth noting that Norway and the Netherlands just stated the F-35 would be cheaper to purchase (and operate) than the proposed Gripen NG.


Sorry, your argument hardly holds water...............with all do respect!nfloorl:

The F-22 procurement cost was $177.6 million in 2006 according to the GAO.
Current cost for the additional 4 that they are trying to add is around $189 million. Program cost was 338.8 million per plane in 2006 according to the GAO.

Another $8 billion is needed to bring 100 of these planes up to scratch.

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[Bang-Bang]

As far As i know F22 Raptor is much much better then F35 in AIR-TO-GROUND,AIR-TO-AIR, STABILITY , DEFENCE & also in MOBILITY . thats why america made a policy not to export its F22 Raptor .

 

[gf0012-aust]

As far As i know F22 Raptor is much much better then F35 in AIR-TO-GROUND,AIR-TO-AIR, STABILITY , DEFENCE & also in MOBILITY . thats why america made a policy not to export its F22 Raptor .

The JSF was always a multinational production development
The F-22 never was multinational because it was covered by ITARs caveats that were regarded as absolute security privilege.

Thats why the policy to export was limited and why political handcuffs such as the Obey Amendment were crafted.

The topic is JSF however, so I'm not sure why the fascination with the F-22??

 

[Grand Danois]

The F-22 procurement cost was $177.6 million in 2006 according to the GAO.
Current cost for the additional 4 that they are trying to add is around $189 million. Program cost was 338.8 million per plane in 2006 according to the GAO.

Another $8 billion is needed to bring 100 of these planes up to scratch.

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Yawn. Show me the actual cost overruns for the past few years.

Not speculations based on how other programs performed vis-a-vis their budgets.

 

[gf0012-aust]

is true USA u-turn on f35 transfer software and technology untill other new president come in and take decisional?

what if they reject transfer, so british will go plan b and dump jsf in the bin to create eurofighter typhoon navalism and maybe (unlikely) few BAe system Replica use stealth roles?

if they reject it will be unfair on british they pour load money more that else tiers partner as bush promise sorted JSF transfer, now it u-turn twice time.

let hope transfer, is accept to keep production still on.

Danny

Why would they reject the sale of JSF? Export sales impact upon profit margin - and the platform was always regarded as multinational in concept because it was designed to pick up on the transition from F-16, F/A-18, Shornet, sales etc...

The JSF is not covered by ITARS restrictions to the participating 1st tranche customers - and the UK as a Tier1 partner has the right of veto across a number of decision vectors (including technology transfer and release) - so why the belief that an incoming POTUS will disrupt existing technology sharing, sales and follow on contracts?

There's zero risk of production being stifled to the existing "buy in" customers. The issue is if any of the 1st tranche customers reduce their orders - that would impact upon company margins - and in the current climate, I cannot see any POTUS taking a decision to kill off a cash cow where all the partners are committed. The ones who make the noise about capability etc also happen to be people who are not even remotely placed to understand or be aware of the capabilities that the Cleared reviewers have been privy to.

 

[Grand Danois]

There's zero risk of production being stifled to the existing "buy in" customers. The issue is if any of the 1st tranche customers reduce their orders - that would impact upon company margins - and in the current climate, I cannot see any POTUS taking a decision to kill off a cash cow where all the partners are committed.

The Norwegians recently changed their requirement from 48 to 56.

 

[dragonfire]

I cannot see any POTUS taking a decision to kill off a cash cow where all the partners are committed

If that is the case why UK being the number 1 partner in the JSF tranche is being denied the souce codes for the software

 

[SpudmanWP]

As far As i know F22 Raptor is much much better then F35 in AIR-TO-GROUND,AIR-TO-AIR, STABILITY , DEFENCE & also in MOBILITY . thats why america made a policy not to export its F22 Raptor .

You need to do more research... Here are the areas where the F-35 is BETTER than the F-22.

1. Larger payload - The F-35 can carry 2000lb class weapons whereas the F-22 can only carry a 1000lb class weapon. There is currently no 1000lb class penetrator.
2. Targeting - The F-35 has a laser designator for pinpoint attack. The F-22 has none (but they can add one if they ever want to pay for it).
3. Situational Awareness - The F-35 has EOTS and DAS which gives it a 360 globe of thermal viewing which can be used for detection, tracking, and targeting of enemy forces. The EOTS is also a long range IRST.
4. Better Radar - The AESA radar modules on the F-35 are a generation above those on the F-22. The F-22 modules will be EVENTUALLY upgraded to the F-35 type.
5. Radar Modes - The F-35 has better Air-to-Ground radar modes than the F-22.
6. Longer Legs - The F-35 will have a longer range than the F-22.
7. Maintenance - The F-35 will be eiser to maintain than the F-22.

You will have to explain what you mean by "STABILITY , DEFENCE & also in MOBILITY"

 

[Crusader2000]

As far As i know F22 Raptor is much much better then F35 in AIR-TO-GROUND,AIR-TO-AIR, STABILITY , DEFENCE & also in MOBILITY . thats why america made a policy not to export its F22 Raptor .

The F-22 is nowhere near as capable as the F-35 in air to gound missions. The Raptor is a Air Superiority Fighter and the Lighting a Strike Fighter.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

The F-22 is nowhere near as capable as the F-35 in air to gound missions. The Raptor is a Air Superiority Fighter and the Lighting a Strike Fighter.

Thats not entirely correct, the F-22A will be more survivable when penetrating ultra high end threats than the F-35, due to its superior RCS reduction and speed, thus in some specific circumstances the F-22A will be a superior striker than the F-35.