F-35 - International Participation

swerve

Super Moderator
They're dreaming. How are they going to pay to acquire and operate them? I would strongly suspect that the US wouldn't agree to such a sale because of the security risk.
Thailand has the money, if it cares to spend it. Eight is hardly going to break the bank for a country with a GDP twice the size of Pakistan's at current exchange rates. If Singapore, Finland, Denmark & Norway can afford to buy tens of F-35s each then Thailand (a country with a significantly bigger GDP than any of them however you measure it) should be able to afford at least eight.

Doesn't mean it's a good idea, though. A handful of F-35s wouldn't be much use. Better to buy a few dozen of something easier & cheaper to operate, I reckon.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A ROKAF F-35A belly landed in an emergency landing after an avionics system problem prevented the undercarriage from deploying. The pilot was uninjured. In response the ROKAF have grounded their F-35A fleet until the cause of the problem is identified.

 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thailand has the money, if it cares to spend it. Eight is hardly going to break the bank for a country with a GDP twice the size of Pakistan's at current exchange rates…

Doesn't mean it's a good idea, though. A handful of F-35s wouldn't be much use. Better to buy a few dozen of something easier & cheaper to operate, I reckon.
Their increasingly close ties to China are basically a bullet to the brain on any such deal. Some earlier block F16s make more sense.
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thailand has be buying Chinese equipment in significant areas.
Submarines, main battle tanks, there is even talk of a joint Chinese Thai production facility. While the Thai Army has a very close relationship with China, and the Thai Navy seems to be creeping closer the Thai air force is very western and always has been.

The Thais actively operate and train with the Chinese. For example Falcon Strike
Flankers vs Gripens: What Happened at the Falcon Strike 2015 Exercise?.

There is a world of difference between a nonaligned but close Singapore and them getting F-35's, and a non-aligned Thailand and getting F-35's.

While Thailand does occasionally still buy western tech, I would feel that the F-35 would be beyond its relationship with the US. F-16 and F-15's would likely to be fine. If the US was annoyed with Turkey owning S400 and the F-35, they would be really annoyed with Thailand openly and actively flying them alongside the PLAAF.

But there is also some theatre to this. Announce maybe they could get the F-35, then assess its not good enough and buy something else and haggle them down on price. They can certainly afford to buy F-35's, but they aren't an ally of the US, and the Thai army and navy have been increasingly leaning on Chinese purchases, and generally close to China.

Gripens or F-16 would be obvious choices as they are in service. They also have the KAI T-50 GE. If they wanted something a bit more capable the Typhoon or F-15 would be reasonable. Would be super interesting to see a Typhoon or F-15 go up against PLAAF in exercises.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #725
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, it would make sense in some ways to use Typhoon for ECR - that way, they end up with a reasonably uniform fleet. Developing an ECR variant for 15 aircraft really sounds very expensive per cab however.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
74 & possibly more. I remember lots of people saying "We're only going to have 48".
If a post 74 order were to happen, would it be more “B”s or would “C”s be an option for supporting the future French CATOBAR carrier? Could be a future opening for a CATOBAR conversion for the QE class as well. Perhaps an appeasement gesture for Brexit.;)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yep, RN CATOBAR ops are well and truly history. Two CATOBAR CVs would've made a big difference in the Falklands War.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Yep, RN CATOBAR ops are well and truly history. Two CATOBAR CVs would've made a big difference in the Falklands War.
Those big seas in the South Atlantic are difficult at the best of times.
V/STOL operations off a big carrier with a sky jump may prove easier than the alternative CATOBAR arrangement.
That said the Queen Elizabeth Class is certainly a big step up on the smaller Invincible Class
I like the F35 A,B and C.
They all have their own attributes.


Cheers S
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
If a post 74 order were to happen, would it be more “B”s or would “C”s be an option for supporting the future French CATOBAR carrier? Could be a future opening for a CATOBAR conversion for the QE class as well. Perhaps an appeasement gesture for Brexit.;)
My understanding is that while doable the cost would be prohibitive.
The UK will consolidate with the B's and they will evolve and provide good service going forward.
Bringing the fleet up to 74 aircraft is a good move.

Cheeers S
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Its a big vote of confidence in the aircraft IMO. B orders are creeping up. Arguably the B is doing quite well now with Japan and Singapore acquiring them and South Korea highly likely.

IMO the version most at risk now is the C version with the USN slowing its acquisitions and not seeing it as particularly high priority. I can see the C version getting minimal specific upgrades etc. It has always been doubtful any other nation was going in on the C's.

UK has fast tracked their acquisition of the first 48. IMO looking back now building the carriers and acquiring the F-35B's was the right thing to do.
The F-35 B's can take off from CATOBAR carriers, if needed. But france has a large and strong fleet of Rafale's.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
IMO the version most at risk now is the C version with the USN slowing its acquisitions and not seeing it as particularly high priority. I can see the C version getting minimal specific upgrades etc. It has always been doubtful any other nation was going in on the C's.
That was always going to be. There were only two Navies in the world who used CATBAR when F35 started had carriers with cats strong enough the USN and France. France had Rafale on the way which left it to the USN and in smaller numbers USMC. Part of the justification for the F35 being basically the same weapons and avionics in different airframes was to try and make it so the upgrades were interchangeable between versions.
So it was always going to be the smallest number of airframes of any of the variants. F35B can accommodate the largest number of Allied carriers as the majority of the world’s flat tops are S/VTOL.
 

Dino van Doorn

Active Member
F-35A Lightning II fifth generation aircraft assigned to the wing at the Vermont Air National Guard Base, South Burlington, Vermont, May 2, 2022. The aircraft departed to Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany, to continue NATO’s Enhanced Air Policing mission along the Eastern Flank of Europe and to secure the airspace of Europe.
Video credit: SMSgt Michael Davis Photo credit: A1C Jana Somero
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #738
1. Another 20 F-35As for Korea (block 4) as part of the country’s F-X project (which comprises the government’s preemptive strike strategy Kill Chain); looks like the Korean Defense Acquisition Program Administration may eventually revisit the need for F-35Bs — but this not fully reported in the developing story.

2. Instead of properly preparing for the OPCON transition, the previous Moon administration focused on the F-35B (over the F-35A as part of the light aircraft carrier project CVX), despite preliminary research performed from 2018 to 2019 that found the country was in need of the “A” variant.

3. Thus far, Lockheed Martin has delivered all 40 F-35A Block 3 fighters the country ordered, as of December 2021. The new proposed order is in addition to the existing fleet of 40 F-35As and 60 F-15Ks. If their true goal is the ability to conduct a preemptive strike on North Korean nuclear missiles, IMHO, 60 F-35As by 2030 is not enough — they need at least 80 to 100, for me to see the effort as credible, given day 1 of war needs.

4. The goal of crisis bargaining is to avoid war in the Korean peninsular. But counter-intuitively, North Korea often has to escalate the threat of war to get Kim Jong-un’s desired best bargaining outcome WITHOUT going to war.
(a) The bombardment of Yeonpyeong island by North Korean artillery on 23 Nov 2010 and North Korea firing multiple artillery shots into the sea, on 12 Jun 2022, are examples of escalation. China’s President Xi understands Kim Jong-un’s crisis bargaining tactics, and that gives Beijing the upper hand in dealing with Seoul.​
(b) Another North Korean bargaining tool uses brilliantly is brinkmanship, which is taking actions that increase the chance of an accidental war. The goal is to make the adversary lose their nerve and back down.​
(c) Kim Jong-un engaged in brinkmanship when he launched 8 short-range ballistic missiles towards the sea off its east coast on 5 Jun 2022. North Korea has launched 31 ballistic missiles from Jan to Jun 2022. Japanese Defence Minister Nobuo Kishi said the North had launched multiple missiles, and that the act "cannot be tolerated." He said at a briefing that at least one missile had a variable trajectory, which indicates it could manoeuvre to evade missile defences. This is in effect, an implied nuclear ballistic missile threat on American bases in Japan and Korea.​

5. To complicate matters, in South Korean domestic politics, the OPCON transition is subject to much confusion and Moon created misconceptions, meaning that conspiracy theories tend to gain traction not only among the public but also at the elite level. OPCON transition needs to be conditions based and South Korea has elected not to spend enough for this transition to occur under former President Moon; & it is unclear Yoon will up spending enough for it to occur in his term of office.
(a) The road map for the three-phase preparation for wartime OPCON transition – Initial Operational Capability (IOC), Full Operational Capability (FOC), and Full Mission Capability (FMC) — agreed upon in Aug 2019, is not easy to achieve at current defence spending levels.​
(b) IMHO, the political leadership of South Korea under President Yoon needs to state what sacrifices OPCON transition calls for, such as raising taxes to meet the increased military spending required to meet FOC & FMC, while making it clear to the public that it is their objective to achieve.​
(c) South Korea will need to address the possible economic risk that a decision to opt out of its current hedging strategy might entail if China were to retaliate in response. This, in turn, would discredit the claim that the obstacle to OPCON transition is the supposed opposition of the US.​
 
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