F-35 - International Participation

TheBaseLeg

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Thank you for your kind words OPSSG, I wouldn't go so far as to call myself an expert, just someone with an interest in air power issues (particularly in the Singapore context) who's just trying to make sense of the bits and bobs of information (which may or may not be true) we get. :)
 

OPSSG

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Thank you for your kind words OPSSG, I wouldn't go so far as to call myself an expert, just someone with an interest in air power issues (particularly in the Singapore context) who's just trying to make sense of the bits and bobs of information (which may or may not be true) we get. :)
We are very glad to have you as a member here. Welcome and we hope to see you around more often, sharing with us what you observe on the F-35 program.

By the way Mike (aka TheBaseLeg) also has a old blog post from Oct 2011 on 'Singapore studying the STOVL F-35B?', where he looks at the F-35B's fit into the proposed Endurance 160 class (he points out that it is too short for normal STOVL operations). Worth a look, it is a good article that aged well.

Mike Yeo said:
...A bigger issue would be the length of the flight deck, being too short for F-35B operations (550ft/168m being the minimum for F-35B operations on a conventional flight deck) or the addition of a ski jump which would reduce the F-35B's take off distance to 450ft/137m...

...It would be interesting to see how the this study on the F-35B's suitability for the RSAF, presumably carried out by Singapore's Defence Science and Technology Agency, pans out. With the advent of the 5th Generation F-35 and a level of parts/logistics commonality with the Conventional Take-off Landing F-35A variant, it seems Singapore's defence planners have seen something in the STOVL F-35B worth looking further into...
If you look further back at military to military relations between US and Singapore, it is clear that the Americans have committed resources to help facilitate a Singapore decision on which F-35 type to acquire. A case in point, the conduct of Exercise Commando Sling 12-1. ‘Commando Sling’ is the code name for a series of bilateral air combat exercises between the US and Singapore. Commando Sling 12-1 stands out as one of the more remarkable exercises of the series for several reasons. Notably, this might be the first Commando Sling that has involved air combat units from more than one US armed services with the participation of F-16C/D Fighting Falcons from the Osan based 36th Fighter Sqn, 51st Fighter Wing and AV-8B Harrier IIs from the Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 268 (Reinforced). HMM-268 (REIN) is the 11th Marine Expeditionary Unit’s aviation combat element, embarked on USS Makin Island (LHD-8).
 
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jack412

Member
Again, you should try reading the threads you post in. [/grins]
No, I missed what you meant? and the grin confused me more. From what I gather repsim, apa and stillion concocted a fantasy that stillion stuck a rand logo on off his own back, because he worked for rand at the time and liked using their logo to promote his own independent ideas, RAND publicly disowned it
 

OPSSG

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Sorry, we got our lines crossed.

No, I missed what you meant? and the grin confused me more. From what I gather repsim, apa and stillion concocted a fantasy that stillion stuck a rand logo on off his own back, because he worked for rand at the time and liked using their logo to promote his own independent ideas, RAND publicly disowned it
The post and [/grins] was directed at fretburner; where he ignored both your post and my prior post debunking Pacific Vision in the old F-35 thread. I have edited my original post for clarity.

fretburner defends misinformation provided by the Defense Industry Daily by pretending not to read prior information provided in the F-35 threads. He continues to spew misinformation across multiple F-35 threads and chanting the anti-F-35 meme. His ideas are not even original and he is trying to derail threads by talking about a restart of the F-22 production line.

Given the timing issue mentioned, I expect a second F-15 squadron. I'm just wondering if this second F-15 squadron would be more F-15SGs or a variant of the Silent Eagle. :D

What do you think?
Back in March 2009 in the F-15SE thread (and quoted above), we were already discussing in this forum the possibility of Singapore acquiring more than 24 F-15SGs. fretburner's just trying to use the old trick of distraction, when we point out he is wrong again.

In other news, Lockheed Martin launches Canadian PR campaign for F-35. Steve O'Bryan, Lockheed's vice-president for the F-35 program, said the price of a F-35 is US$85 million. Lockheed Martin is sending its executives and a working F-35 flight simulator to wow Canadians with the capabilities of its brand-new, high-tech stealth fighter. The simulator will be on show in Toronto today, and in Winnipeg, Vancouver, Montreal and Ottawa in the weeks ahead. Billed as the fighter of the future, the F-35 is famously over budget and behind schedule. Meanwhile, Lockheed Martin's chief rival, Boeing, is offering to sell Canada a fleet of F-18 Super Hornets. Remember to take the details of this news report with a pinch of salt (and likewise for future meme chanting posts by fretburner).
 
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jack412

Member
OK, I'm old and have egg-timers disease, after 2 min I lose the plot, I missed that
I post here because the trolls aren't
as you would know the $85M is in then year dollars which is $73M 2012 year dollars..nothing has changed..except the noise from the desperates is getting louder..the better the programs goes the louder they get
 

Vivendi

Member
The Netherlands is to place its Lockheed Martin F-35A Joint Strike Fighter test aircraft into temporary storage, pending a final decision on how to replace its air force's Lockheed F-16 fighters.

Newly appointed defence minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert announced the decision to park the test assets in a letter to the Dutch parliament on 4 April. A first example - delivered in late 2012 - and a second, expected to be handed over in mid-2013, will be stored at Edwards AFB, California, where they will be kept in airworthy condition and flown occasionally by US Air Force pilots. The effects of the decision will be discussed with the F-35 Joint Program Office.

On 25 April, a meeting of the Dutch parliament regarding the F-16 replacement will be held, and with the current coalition it is uncertain which way the decision will go. The coalition partners say a decision on the F-35 will be taken before the end of this year.

In an interview, Hennis-Plasschaert said that her office was open for all interested manufacturers. This would enable Boeing to promote the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab the Gripen E, although neither Dassault nor the Eurofighter consortium have confirmed whether they will offer their respective Rafale and Typhoon products in advance of a formal competitive process being launched.
Full story: Dutch government opts to store F-35 test aircraft

Can anybody confirm this story?

Politicians...
 

OPSSG

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Full story: Dutch government opts to store F-35 test aircraft

Can anybody confirm this story?

Politicians...
I can't read Dutch but I understand that this information is from the Dutch Ministry of Defence and issued April 4, 2013 (see here for Dutch MOD Letter). Defense-aerospace has translated the letter and the link is here. Looks official.

Politicians... indeed. This is political posturing due to the current economic climate and it will affect the JSF program (from a lot production perspective and increase the cost of early lots). Along with Italy, Netherlands is a Level 2 partner (IIRC, they are the supplier of external doors in the JSF program). IMO, this does not mean that the Dutch will cancel their F-35A orders (it just means that they are not buying 2 F-35As under LRIP). It would seem to me that the Dutch are just putting on-hold their own F-35A operational test program, until a later date.

Hopefully, we are a forum with less drama (and even less trolls) on our F-35 discussion threads by keeping the drama mamas on a tight leash.
 

King Wally

Active Member
The Dutch should offer the 2 units to the South Koreans (or the Japanese)... sure they would love to parade around a couple brand spanking new F-35's for the camera's if they got half the chance. Yeah I know they are still being tested and not operational... and meant to stay in the states.... but I'm more then anything talking about feeding the propagada machine and showing the locals they are "doing something" about the NK threat. Send a fat cheque to the Dutch today and maybe, just maybe. Would have to be a vote winner for the locals and if I were a pollie in SK or Japan I'd be on it in a heartbeat.
 

OPSSG

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The Dutch should offer the 2 units to the South Koreans (or the Japanese)... sure they would love to parade around a couple brand spanking new F-35's for the camera's if they got half the chance.
This is not correct. There is no need to "buy" the production slot from the Dutch. The initial Japanese buy of the F-35A is already in LRIP Lot-8. I have posted this earlier.

but I'm more then anything talking about feeding the propagada machine and showing the locals they are "doing something" about the NK threat.
This is not how professional procurement of tertiary air forces work. There are other ways to show resolve, given the huge quantity of air assets and missile defence assets available to the Japanese (defense spending of US$58.2 billion in 2011) and South Koreans (defense spending of US$28.6 billion in 2011). Right now the South Koreans have not made a decision. There is a decision cycle and it is in process. It is professional and independent. These processes cannot be rushed in the manner you suggest and are designed to help a country buy the right equipment/platform to address their threat matrix (which would include the N. Koreans) while giving due regard to their respective industrial base considerations.

Often, I would not reply to posts like yours. Think of this post as a one time correction by me. If you continue to post like this do not be shocked if other forum members tell you what they think of your post. The quality of participation here is a little bit different. Just look around the other threads.

Send a fat cheque to the Dutch today and maybe, just maybe. Would have to be a vote winner for the locals and if I were a pollie in SK or Japan I'd be on it in a heartbeat.
Rubbish. Stay away from things you do not understand or at least read up before posting. Do not be a drama mama.
 

King Wally

Active Member
Point taken. Was a rather off the wall comment I know. Put it down in a fingers typing faster then the brains thinking realm.

Cheers

Wally
 
I always hear people in internet land state they would like to see Australia produce a fighter jet ect. With JSF we(Australia) will be a supplier of parts for plane that may reach 3000 plus units.To me this is a point that the press has yet to pick up and push onto the Australian public. We always hear negativity about JSF ,would be nice for the press to pick up on this positive fact.

LM have released a great video on Australian suppliers for JSF

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26AP45VGeP8"]Australia's F-35 Suppliers - YouTube[/nomedia]
 

OPSSG

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United Arab Emirates is taking an interest in the F-35

12 April 2013 — The United Arab Emirates has expressed interest in acquiring the Joint Strike Fighter. Industry sources said the UAE leadership has been quietly discussing the prospect of acquiring the F-35 fighter-jet from the United States. They said JSF was raised by UAE officials and military officers in several forums over the last year.

“The UAE wants to be part of JSF, and eventually share in technology and
co-production,” a source said. The sources said UAE Air Force officers were briefed on the F-35 program during IDEX-2013, which took place in Abu Dhabi in February. They said the UAE proposed becoming a regional hub for maintenance and marketing of JSF to Gulf Cooperation Council states...

<snip>
It seems there is news that the UAE is taking an interest in the F-35 and we'll just have to see if this pans out with a buy at a later date.
 
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colay

New Member
It seems there is news that the UAE is taking an interest in the F-35 and we'll just have to see if this pans out with a buy.
Do the GCC states require that level of technology, presumably as a counter to Iran? The GCC states already have sizable fleets of advanced 4G aircraft e.g Typhoon, Eagle, Viper, etc. well exceeding any potential adversary. OTOH, any sale of F-35s may be perceived as altering the strategic balance vis-a-vis Israel.
 

OPSSG

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Extract of World Air Forces - 2013

Iran - Combat Aircraft
F-4D/E/RF-4E - 28
F-5E - 20
F-5F - 10
F-6 - 18
F-7 - 17
F-14 - 26
MiG-29 - 16
Mirage F1 - 5
Su-24 - 27
Looking at the above 2013 Iranian fighter numbers, from a homeland defence perspective for the GCC countries, they would be more capable of spanking the Iranians in any air battle. Many in GCC have air forces that are technologically more advanced than Iran; and from a control of the air perspective (over their own territorial air space in the respective GCC countries) against Iranian fighters. But unfortunately, that is not the issue.

The issue for GCC countries: What, if Iran acts against GCC interests again? In particular, by attacking shipping via missiles and mines. OR if Iran does something else, like staging and conducting deniable actions like supporting various terrorist spectaculars in GCC countries?

ISS said:
Extract from the Military Balance 2010 (from page 238 to 239)

...Iran has already fielded a Shahab-3 missile with the one-tonne payload capacity and 1.2m airframe diameter necessary to carry a nuclear warhead. Its 1,300km range encompasses Israel, Turkey and Saudi Arabia. The Shahab-3 also formed the first stage of the twostage rocket Iran used to launch its first satellite into low-earth orbit in February 2009. Perhaps more worrying was the November 2008 test firing of a new medium- range ballistic missile, the solid-fuelled Sajjil. Though its range and payload are similar to the Shahab, the faster launch time of a solid-fuelled rocket of this type reduces vulnerability to pre-emptive strikes. Iran also reported successful firings of Shahab and Sajjil missiles at the end of the Great Prophet IV exercise conducted by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) in September 2009. But Tehran must also contend with home-grown security threats: six commanders of the IRGC (including the deputy commander of the IRGC ground forces) were killed in an 18 October attack in Sistan-Baluchistan Province, which killed 43 in total.

The Jundullah terrorist group, which has promoted a brand of Sunni radicalism in the tribal region through abductions and executions of police and military officers, claimed responsibility. Earlier in the year, the Basij paramilitary force, which is effectively under IRGC control, was heavily employed against demonstrators during protests over the announced victory, in the presidential election, of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad...


From page 251 onwards
-------------------------------------------------------------------
ACTIVE 523,000 (Army 350,000 Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps 125,000 Navy 18,000 Air 30,000) Paramilitary 40,000
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Army 130,000; 220,000 conscript (total 350,000)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps Ground
Forces 100,000+
------------------------------------------------------------------
Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps
Naval Forces 20,000+ (incl 5,000 Marines)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps Air Force
Controls Iran’s strategic missile force.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Air Force 30,000 (incl 12,000 Air Defence)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Navy 18,000
------------------------------------------------------------------
The issue at hand is really, escalation options for the GCC. In that respect, their force structures have important gaps in capabilities that restrict their escalation options viz-viz Iran (especially if the escalation plan does not have full American participation). It is not in question that the various Arab regimes hate the regime in power in Iran and have set up the Peninsula Shield Force (led by Saudi Arabia), in the past. The issue at hand is both sides lack good options for escalation.

When Robert Gates visited Riyadh in August 2007, he got an earful from Saudi King Abdullah, who urged “a full-scale military attack on Iranian military targets, not just the nuclear sites.” This Saudi view point was reported in cables released by WikiLeaks in 2010, wherein Saudi King Abdullah urged the US to attack Iran, “cut off the head of the snake” and halt its nuclear program. “As far as I was concerned, he was asking the United States to send its sons and daughters into a war with Iran in order to protect the Saudi position in the Gulf and the region, as if we were mercenaries,” said Robert Gates. So as you can see, the Americans only want sanctions against Iran and not war.

Do the GCC states require that level of technology, presumably as a counter to Iran?
I must qualify that we cannot see the GCC as a single block; given their differences and their need to be competitive within the GCC.

Having said that, there are gaps in air power capabilities (in the four air power roles) that each GCC country would like to address. IMO, the most significant of which is gaps in their individual ISR capability for control of their littoral waters and the adjacent SLOC. The 1988, Operation Praying Mantis, comes to mind, on options available to GCC states. This includes using Apache helicopters against swarming small boat threats by the IRGC. Apache operators in GCC countries include Saudi Arabia with 12 (and 70 more on order), UAE with 30, Kuwait with 16, and Egypt with 36; but the Iranians seemed to have learnt from that prior unequal encounter with the US Navy.

Extract of World Air Forces - 2013

UAE - Combat Aircraft
F-16E - 54
F-16F* - 24
Mirage 2000EAD/RAD - 16
Mirage 2000-9/EAD/RAD - 33
Mirage 2000DAD* - 2
Mirage 2000-9DAD* - 13

*Two seaters/Operation Conversion Unit
With regard to the above discussion, I can understand UAE's interest in the F-35 for three of the four roles of air power (namely, control of the air, attack and ISR). If the Americans were to offer the F-35 to UAE, it might have the potential to scuttle the current French attempt to sell the Rafale to UAE. On the other hand, it could just be UAE 'indirectly' telling France that there are other options and keeping the French on their toes. In this case, I have no firm views on the matter.

The GCC states already have sizable fleets of advanced 4G aircraft e.g Typhoon, Eagle, Viper, etc. well exceeding any potential adversary.
Yes, they have acquired the fighter platforms and have trained hard to ensure that these can perform as expected. However, platform competence by itself is not enough to assert control of the sea by GCC countries. I suspect that they will want and need extensive external help from external parties with naval warfare and expeditionary capabilities (eg. US, UK, France and the usual Western suspects), given that the Iranians also operate a number of miniature submarines.

Simply put, I don't know enough about GCC countries to discuss their level of competence at combined arms warfare, collectively, nor shall I attempt it; as I am liable to do the discussion gross injustice.

OTOH, any sale of F-35s may be perceived as altering the strategic balance vis-a-vis Israel.
This will not be a simple discussion (the scope of discussion is too wide, as currently framed) and I would like to keep away from such a broad topic due of my lack of knowledge on certain specific details of each and every country. Gur Laish, writing on "Israel and the F-35" in Strategic Assessment, Volume 13 No. 4 (January 2011), raised a couple of interesting points (see the extract below quoted from pages 14-15) but they do not answer your query in detail.
Gur Laish said:
Maintaining the Qualitative Edge

Russia’s renewed production and sale of high quality weapons, sales by countries in the Far East, and the economic situation in the United States and Europe makes the American (and European) need to sell advanced weapons to states in the region that are not direct enemies of Israel, e.g., Saudi Arabia, more acute than ever. In order to compete with other weapons manufacturers, the Americans must sell the most innovative systems, as with, for example, the recently publicized arms deal to sell and upgrade F-15s to Saudi Arabia. Such weapons deals affect the region both directly and indirectly: directly, in that the very sale of these weapons to the Saudis makes it easier to sell similar weapons to other countries; indirectly, because weapons such as these in Saudi hands spark an arms race among its enemies and motivates them to attain the same weapons. It also legitimizes sales, so that at the end of the process, the entire region is armed with better weapons than before.

However, maintaining Israel’s qualitative edge over the region’s armed forces of enemies and non-enemies is an important component of Israel’s security concept, and the United States is even obligated to this principle by law. When weapons that are identical and at times even superior to what Israel has are sold to other actors in the region, this challenges Israel’s qualitative edge, and the only way to maintain the gap in quality in the air is by purchasing and operating the next generation of weapon systems. Maintaining the qualitative advantage has strategic significance for deterrence and may have concrete effects in a confrontation. The regional arms race forces Israel to equip itself with the next generation of weapon systems...


<snip>
Perhaps you might want to keep a lookout for some other think tank discussions, or we can see if any other member would chime in with more details.
 
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SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
Here is the TV interview that Gen Bogden gave to Netherlands TV.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5hPFzOxnBs"]Gen Bogden Netherlands TV interview 18 April 2013 - YouTube[/nomedia]


Here is a slide that shows a Block by Block and Tech Refresh capability Level.

View attachment 5929

Here is the PDF (in Dutch) that it came from.

http://t.co/bkKAfGGsLA

Here is the Google Translate of the PDF.

Google Translate
 
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colay

New Member
The UAE had earlier purchased 80 of the F-16 E/Fs, the most advanced variants flying. I don't know how this impacts earlier reports of reported UAE interest in the F-35 but it's obviously a more complex situation with Israel's security concerns figuring in the equation.

UAE Orders More F-16E/F Fighters | Aviation International News



UAE Orders More F-16E/F Fighters
APRIL 26, 2013

The United Arab Emirates Air Force has decided to buy another 25 Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60 fighters. The deal is worth $4- to $5 billion, according to a senior Pentagon official who briefed reporters in Washington. The UAE, together with Saudi Arabia, will also be receiving unspecified “advanced standoff weapons” for its fighters, added the same official. The sales have not yet been formally notified to the U.S. Congress, although the Pentagon had consulted with key legislators there, according to the official...

The U.S. gained private approval from Israel for the new sale, together with the earlier deal to supply 84 new F-15SA Strike Eagles to Saudi Arabia. The perceived threat to regional security from Iran is driving this accommodation. The senior Pentagon official made explicit, for the first time, the conditions of use that are attached to such sales. “There will be enhanced end-use monitoring…and consultation before any of [these] weapons’ deployment,” he said.
 

CapnCrunch

New Member
The UAE had earlier purchased 80 of the F-16 E/Fs, the most advanced variants flying. I don't know how this impacts earlier reports of reported UAE interest in the F-35
I think this makes an F-35 order a near certainty. Wikileaks had a 2009 cable transcript of a meeting between Bahrain's king and Gen. Petraeus. The Persian Gulf kingdoms were keen on getting the F-35 as soon as possible and Petraeus assured him it would be made available when the aircraft is ready.

The F-16 order allows the UAE to replace their older M-2000s without introducing a new type and sets them up for a 30-40 F-35 order in 2016-7 for 2020 introduction. I believe if the UAE had intentions of buying the Rafale or E.F. they would have ordered 60 instead of the F-16s. A stealth aircraft that can hit Tehran from the southern P.G. is a compelling deterrent for all the P.G. countries.

Google "Wikileaks casts light on arms sales process"
But the cables sometimes reveal the private thoughts of key players. For example, in a private meeting with Gen David Petraeus, King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa of Bahrain agreed with his visitor's claim that the Dassault Rafale is "yesterday's technology", according to a dispatch dated 4 November 2009.

Hamad's comments carry some weight in the fighter business. Bahrain may be in the market to replace its fleet of Northrop F-5s. If the USA offers the Lockheed Martin F-16 or Boeing F/A-18, the Rafale is from the same era.

But if the USA offers the Lockheed F-35, it could boast offering "today's" technology. In January, a Lockheed Martin executive attending the Bahrain air show told reporters that Arab states would start buying the F-35 after Israel signs an order.


The Israelis have signed.
 

RobWilliams

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The UK is expected to order 14 F35B's for the first squadron to be stood up in 2016 by the end of 2013 (Or at least "autority to procure"). It's widely expected to be 17(R) Squadron which will be the OEU for the F35B in the UK as they've started work winding down on the Typhoon in preperation for the F35B's introduction.

UK set to procure first F-35 Lightning II squadron

The UK is expected to obtain authority to procure its first squadron of Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)/Joint Combat Aircraft (JCA) before the end of 2013, IHS Jane's was told on 18 April.

Speaking at BAE Systems' Warton production facility in Lancashire, Craig Smith, the head of F-35 Sustainment Programme Development UK/EU, said that military officials with industry support are working on the Main Gate 4 approval process for the procurement of an additional 14 F-35Bs to stand up the UK's first squadron in 2016 and to be declared operational in 2018.

"Main Gate 4 is being worked on right now, and should be submitted to the Treasury later in 2013," he said. "Another 14 aircraft will be ordered to stand up 'Squadron A' [the Ministry of Defence has yet to assign a unit designation] in 2016, with support to run through to 2020."

Overall platforms numbers for the UK remain the subject of speculation, beyond the initial 48 announced by Defence Secretary Philip Hammond in 2012. The programme of record remains at 138 aircraft, but no firm numbers will be announced until the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) in 2015.

With three UK F-35B aircraft already delivered, a contract for the fourth is expected in the coming months.
 
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