F-22 and Su-37

[gf0012-aust]

That invisibility caper is rather hard to master...

not to mention that the F117 was first flying combat missions in 1983 - and wasn't revealed to the public for 10 years - LO does have its uses - especially at night time.

Rabbiting on about visibility in daylight hours is a specious argument. the issue has always been how, when and where and in conjunction with other multipliers.

The problem with the Sparks/Riccionis is the use of selective arguments that often don't reflect actual pan outs.

 

[KGB]

Pardon my question, I'm a civillian... Does the fact that the F-22 is stealth mean that it can't (or is exceptionally difficult) to target with BVR missiles and SAMs? If I understood what I read correctly, AMRAAM and the like are radar guided. And since it baffles the engine exhaust, does it mean that heat seeking missiles are also not useful against them?

 

[turin]

Today stealth mainly desrcibes terms to reduce the detectable radar cross section and thermal emissions of an aircraft. This is basically about a range advantage, since with the aircraft incoming it becomes more easily detectable. This allows the F/A-22 to remain hidden on enemy radar for a longer time than a more conventional aircraft, while it can employ its own powerful radar, or better, rely on the assistance of AEWC platforms, to detect and track the enemy AC (if the latter does not employ sufficient stealth capabilities itself).
It does not mean, that radar guided missiles wont detect the F/A-22, however the opposing AC employing them has to "see" a sign of the Raptor being around in the first place and thats mainly where, as far as I can see, radar stealth shows most of its strengths.

As for the thermal issue, well it certainly makes tracking the F/A-22 a more difficult job by means of IR sensors, thats what these measures are supposed to do. I wouldnt go so far as to say IR guided missiles are not useful, though. Keep in mind, that IR sensors get better and better as well, and while the Raptor may have its thermal emissions reduced to a certain degree, there still is detectable heat useful for tracking.

 

[KGB]

Thanks for the info. I imagine that the active radar emissions from a F22 could be use to target it but its also not hard to imagine countermeasures to this.

Well, stealth seems to be a huge advantage in air to air combat. It would be more 'sporting' if the russians could come up with an answer, but they haven't even fielded a working stealth aircraft wheras the stealth on an f22 is second generation.

 

[turin]

Well, I guess, this has to do with a certain kind of attitude and doctrine concering air combat as well. By the way, the F/A-22 can even be considered third generation stealth, where F-117 and B-2 designs represent the first resp. second generation, yet this generation-issue is a bit blurry though, especially when compared to different foreign developments.
Until recently the Russians appeared to prefer pure speed, agility and sheer power over a low AC signature, just see the Flanker series. This may be due to the fact that they emphasized close combat and interceptor capabilities over issues concerning BVR, especially medium range, engagements and also due to technological deficits in regard of stealth (note the much rumored different approach concering "active stealth" such as plasma-based measures). Only in most recent developments (the much discussed but barely known PAKFA) there seems to be some change in that regard. Of course its more difficult to include any stealth features into a higly agile and fast jet fighter than lets say into a bomber or reconnaissance aircraft, where high speed and manouvering are not the most important issues.

 

[PLA2025]

Like most members here posted before both jets have their advantages.
The F/A-22 Raptor is in advantage for an ambush from the medium range distance combat. But that doesn't mean that the AMRAAMs will hit its target 100% since the missiles are not stealthy and can be defended at a certain rate with flares and chaffs.

The Su-37 Terminator is in advantage when entering a full scale air combat (involving at least two squadrons) and once involved in a battle without frontlines.
About the vector thrust engines of the Su-37: The first prototypes had 2-D vector engínes while the latest have been fitted out with 3-D aka 360 degree vector engines.
The USAF has around 60 Raptors in inventory but not in service although they could be deloyed if needed.
Russia has at least 6 Su-37 prototypes including the basic single seater and the two seater.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The F/A-22 Raptor is in advantage for an ambush from the medium range distance combat.

Actually, it's quite a bit more than that:

It's less dependant on AWACs/AEW&C - so can attend unassisted. But, that contradicts USAF doctrine so is unlikely - what it does though is make it a highly lethal single asset. Don't make the mistake that some "amateurs" do and that is by focussing solely or disproportionately on the platform and not the integration and disposition of combined systems across all 4 dimensions.

But that doesn't mean that the AMRAAMs will hit its target 100% since the missiles are not stealthy and can be defended at a certain rate with flares and chaffs.

You're assuming that this is so on single seeker weapons and weapons that can't be hand-offed by other assets. ie netcentric control as per Gripen etc.... The USAF/USN have been trialling and successfully running tri-seeker weapons for 2 years. Nobody else has tri-seekers that I'm aware of. One of the principle strengths is that the F-22 can close up far closer than any other aircraft and launch well within the kill envelope where escape and evasion are reduced with each closing km. Their main strength is being able to close short range and effect a kill well before the other aircraft is alerted. Thats not medium range - thats short range.

The Su-37 Terminator is in advantage when entering a full scale air combat (involving at least two squadrons) and once involved in a battle without frontlines.

Hows that so? Full scale combat denotes full combined arms in 4 dimensions. which country is even remotely close at synchronised, sympathetic and demonstrated 4 dimensional warfare? No frontlines immediately works to a US advantage.

The USAF has around 60 Raptors in inventory but not in service although they could be deloyed if needed.

They do actually have a squadron in full service. The other two squadrons could be slipstreamed immediately if there was a requirement. In fact there are more F-22's now than Rafales in service. (just to give an idea of speed of implementation)

Russia has at least 6 Su-37 prototypes including the basic single seater and the two seater.

Yes, and they don't think that they will have a short squadron completed by end 2006 and a full squadron until 2007. That makes maybe another 12 on current build rates in 2008. That's a maximum of 24 aircraft assuming that there are no hiccups. Look at current Russian build rates as opposed to the last 4 years of stated and projected build rates and their numbers collapse by almost 50%.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

The F-22 and the Su-37 are, in my opinion, the best fighter jets ever made (Except for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter). But I don't know is which one is better. The Su-37 is a highly manuverable, heavily armed plane while the F-22 has amazing stealth technologies combined with an impressive armament that includes AIM-9 heat-seeking missiles...

The Su-37 is a super-maneuverable thrust vectoring fighter derived from an Su-35 prototype. The Su-37 represents a new level of capability compared with the Su-27 and Su-35. The Su-37 test aircraft made its maiden flight in April 1996 from the Zhukovsky flight testing center near Moscow. This impressive single-seat all-weather counter-air fighter and ground attack aircraft, derived from the SU-27, has an updated airframe containing a high proportion of carbon-fibre and Al-Li alloy. The engines, avionics and armaments are also improvements on those originally installed in the SU-27. The AL-37FU engines are configured for thrust vector control, with the axisymmetric steerable thrust vector control nozzle is fixed on a circular turning unit. The steel nozzle in the experimental engines is replaced in production engines by titanium units to reduce the weight of the nozzle. The nozzle only moves in the pitch axis, and the nozzles on the two engines can deflect together or differentially to achieve the desired thrust vector for a particular maneuver.




The Su-37 has a variety of other innovative equipment such as a radar configured for simultaneous surveillance of airspace and the ground and a high-precision laser-inertial/satellite navigation system. The all-weather digital multi-mode phased array radar operates in either air and ground surveillance modes or in both modes simultaneously. Ground surveillance modes include mapping (with Doppler beam sharpening), search-and-track of moving targets, synthetic aperature radar and terrain avoidance. The Su-37 is also equipped with a rearward facing radar in the tail stinger area of the fuselage. The Su-37 features fly-by-wire and relaxed static instability, which along with 3D thrust vectoring give the aircraft tremendous agility. It incorporates state of the art ECM in wing-tip pods, allowing improved survivability in electronic warfare environments. The Su-37 can carry air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons on 12 stations. The number of missiles and bombs carried can be increased to 14 with the use of multi-payload racks. Sukhoi used payments earned in the sale of an Su-27 license to China to finance the Su-37 development. Russia's Air Force has not ordered any Su-37s. Sukhoi is studying the possibility of developing a two-seat version of the Su-37 with enhanced strike capabilities.

Armament: One GSh-30-1 30mm cannon, plus up to 18,075 lb including R-73/R-77 AAMs, ASMs, bombs, rockets, drop tanks, and ECM pods carried on fourteen external points

Top Speed: 1,516 MPH



The F-22's engine is expected to be the first to provide the ability to fly faster than the speed of sound for an extended period of time without the high fuel consumption characteristic of aircraft that use afterburners to achieve supersonic speeds. It is expected to provide high performance and high fuel efficiency at slower speeds as well.
For its primary air-to-air role, the F-22 will carry six AIM-120C and two AIM-9 missiles. For its air-to-ground role, the F-22 can internally carry two 1,000 pound-class Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM), two AIM-120C, and two AIM-9 missiles. With the Global Positioning System-guided JDAM, the F-22 will have an adverse weather capability to supplement the F-117 (and later the Joint Strike Fighter) for air-to-ground missions after achieving air dominance.



The F-22's combat configuration is "clean", that is, with all armament carried internally and with no external stores. This is an important factor in the F-22's stealth characteristics, and it improves the fighter's aerodynamics by dramatically reducing drag, which, in turn, improves the F-22's range. The F-22 has four under wing hardpoints, each capable of carrying 5,000 pounds. A single pylon design, which features forward and aft sway braces, an aft pivot, electrical connections, and fuel and air connections, is used. Either a 600-gallon fuel tank or two LAU-128/A missile launchers can be attached to the bottom of the pylon, depending on the mission. There are two basic external configurations for the F-22:

• Four 600 gallon fuel tanks, no external weapons: This configuration is used when the aircraft is being ferried and extra range is needed. A BRU-47/A rack is used on each pylon to hold the external tanks.
• Two 600 gallon fuel tanks, four missiles: This configuration is used after air dominance in a battle area has been secured, and extra loiter time and firepower is required for Combat Air Patrol (CAP). The external fuel tanks, held by a BRU-47/A rack are carried on the inboard stations, while a pylon fitted with two LAU-128/A rail launchers is fitted to each of the outboard stations.

An all-missile external loadout (two missiles on each of the stations) is possible and would not be difficult technically to integrate, but the Air Force has not stated a requirement for this configuration. Prior to its selection as winner of what was then known as the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) competition, the F-22 team conducted a 54-month demonstration/ validation (dem/val) program. The effort involved the design, construction and flight testing of two YF-22 prototype aircraft. Two prototype engines, the Pratt & Whitney YF119 and General Electric YF120, also were developed and tested during the program. The dem/val program was completed in December 1990. Much of that work was performed at Boeing in Seattle, Lockheed (now known as Lockheed Martin) facilities in Burbank, Calif., and at General Dynamics' Fort Worth, Texas, facilities (now known as Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems). The prototypes were assembled in Lockheed's Palmdale, Calif., facility and made their maiden flight from there. Since that time Lockheed's program management and aircraft assembly operations have moved to Marietta, Ga., for the EMD and production phases.


The F-22 passed milestone II in 1991. At that time, the Air Force planned to acquire 648 F-22 operational aircraft at a cost of $86.6 billion. After the Bottom Up Review, completed by DOD in September 1993, the planned quantity of F-22s was reduced to 442 at an estimated cost of $71.6 billion.


A $9.55 billion contract for Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD) of the F-22 was awarded to the industry team of Boeing and Lockheed Martin in August 1991. Contract changes since then have elevated the contract value to approximately $11 billion. Under terms of the contract, the F-22 team will complete the design of the aircraft, produce production tooling for the program, and build and test nine flightworthy and two ground-test aircraft.

A Joint Estimate Team was chartered in June 1996 to review the F-22 program cost and schedule. JET concluded that the F-22 engineering and manufacturing development program would require additional time and funding to reduce risk before the F-22 enters production. JET estimated that the development cost would increase by about $1.45 billion. Also, JET concluded that F-22 production cost could grow by about $13 billion (from $48 billion to $61 billion) unless offset by various cost avoidance actions. As a result of the JET review the program was restructured, requiring an additional $2.2 billion be added to the EMD budget and 12 months be added to the schedule to ensure the achievement of a producible, affordable design prior to entering production. The program restructure allowed sourcing within F-22 program funds by deleting the three pre-production aircraft and slowing the production ramp. Potential for cost growth in production was contained within current budget estimate through cost reduction initiatives formalized in a government/industry memorandum of agreement. The Defense Acquisition Board principals reviewed the restructured program strategy and on February 11, 1997 the Defense Acquisition Executive issued an Acquisition Defense Memorandum approving the strategy.

The Quadrennial Defense Review Reportwhich was released in mid-May 1997, reduced the F-22 overall production quantity from 438 to 339, slowed the Low Rate Initial Production ramp from 70 to 58, and reduced the maximum production rate from 48 to 36 aircraft per year. The F-22 EMD program marked a successful first flight on September 7, 1997. The flight test program, which has already begun in Marietta, Georgia, will continue at Edwards AFB, California through the year 2001. Low rate production is scheduled to begin in FY99. The aircraft production rate will gradually increase to 36 aircraft per year in FY 2004, and will continue that rate until all 339 aircraft have been built (projected to be complete in 2013). Initial Operational Capability of one operational squadron is slated for December 2005.

The F-15 fleet is experiencing problems with avionics parts obsolescence, and the average age of the fleet will be more than 30 years when the last F-22 is delivered in 2013. But the current inventory of F-15s can be economically maintained in a structurally sound condition until 2015 or later. None of the 918 F-15s that were in the inventory in July 1992 will begin to exceed their expected economic service lives until 2014.

Armament:
Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
six AIM-120C Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
one 20mm Gatling gun
two 1,000-pound Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM)


Top Speed: Mach 1.8



Source of info: Military Analisis Network FAS


So can anyone tell me their opinions on which plane is better? Thanks in advance...

In my opinion, amature at best:O) Comparing the SU 37 to the F22 is like comparing apples and oranges. Cost wise the F22 is the heavy wieght in terms of affordability. The SU 37 will be the poor mans F22. The F22 was designed from the outset to have "super cruise" that is the ability to cruise at mach 1.0 and not have a high heat signature or fuel consumption. The F22 also has so far demonstrated outstanding sensor and wepon intergration, and most recently has begun testing for ground attack weapons that the Russians can only hope to match ( JDAM, JSOW). Also I predict that as far as operational experience and training the USAF is by far the better than the Russians or for that matter anyone else that will fly the SU37. While the pilot of a SU37 will be using his or her powerful radar to even find, let alone lock on to and angage a F22, he or she will be taking some pretty intense evasive action from missiles that come from no where, from a F22. The future combination of F35 and F22 will bring a new dimension to air warfare, and if a tried and true battle ever breaks out for air superiority in the future then I would hedge my bets on the combined experience and technology that the USAF and other users of the F35 will bring to the fight.

It isn't the plane alone that wins, it is the gray matter and experience of the pilot that determines the outcome, and so far there are few that get to ring out their operational doctrine with real world missions these days, and from what I see, very few SU 27/35 users are in that exclusive club.

 

[tphuang]

com'on, F-22 vs Su-37?

Su-37 isn't even in the same league. You will probably see a 4:1 kill ratio if all things happen right for su-37. Btw, su-37 isn't the real name used. It's su-35 or su-35bm. If su-37 can actually match f-22, Russia would not need PAK FA. Even PAK-FA isn't going to be as good as F-22 is now.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

com'on, F-22 vs Su-37?

Su-37 isn't even in the same league. You will probably see a 4:1 kill ratio if all things happen right for su-37. Btw, su-37 isn't the real name used. It's su-35 or su-35bm. If su-37 can actually match f-22, Russia would not need PAK FA. Even PAK-FA isn't going to be as good as F-22 is now.

TPhaung, thank you for the clarification, as I stated previously, I am a novice in my alalysis. Of course there is a myriad of senarios that can arise in future engagements, but I think your prediction is spot on, except that I would up it even higher in the ratios, 10 or 20:1 in favor of the F22. The F22 is an Air Dominance technology, it of course will not operate as the one and only asset, and airfields would be the first strike target for cruise and other missile attacks, I do not see the SU's dominating the strategic picture, maybe they can attain, at a very high price, local air superiority, but not for long.

It would be interesting to get some data on the RCS of the SU's vs the F22.
I am sure that the idea of this forum is to compare all the airframe and eletronics of these 2 aircraft, but as we all know, that is maybe only 50 percent of the true measure of any system compared to another, the other 50 percent is use and pilot capability too.

 

[tphuang]

RCS of su-27 variants - 5 m^2 +
RCS of F-22 probably less than 0.01 m^2
That's all we need to know.

 

[turin]

RCS of su-27 variants - 5 m^2 +
RCS of F-22 probably less than 0.01 m^2
That's all we need to know.

Source for that? I know of some credible estimations for the F-22 being along the line of < 0,25 m² frontal and < 1m² overall. Actually the B-2A is estimated to be in the league of < 0,1 m² overall (estimations based on a german article by Georg Mader, writer for JDW and others). I'm sure, the Raptor RCS is pretty good, but lets try not to make it even more fantastic than it probably is...

 

[PLA2025]

Of course the F/A-22 and the Su-37 are not in the same category of fighter jets. The Raptor is a 5th generation stealth fighter and not based on any US 3rd or 4th generation jets while the Su-37 is a 4th generation jet based on the airframe of the 3rd generation Su-27. The Su-37 was also refered as the "vector Flanker", an further upgrade of the SU-35 Super Flanker.
About the kill ratio: Well don't forget that is highly depends on the skills and tactics of the pilots inside each jet. China is developing new radar formats to break the stealth capabilities which could make the expensive affords and investments in jeopardy. You can bash me as an amateur or else, it is ok. But talking about two jets we haven't seen in real air combats and especially no head to head match ups is always speculative no matter what we read or watched through the media. Usually US Pilots flying a F-15 are saying that the Eagle is the best fighter jet in the world in service (Raptor here excluded). But most of them know that the Russians have at least one better fighter jet to date, the Su-35 Super Flanker. But do you actually think that they are allowed to say to the public, that they believe that a fighter jet of another nation/ origin would be better? They would get real problems from their superior if they state doubts about their own technologies outside the military. Same thing happened with the EF Typhoon when a reporter asked one testpilot about the satisfaction of the Typhoon and the testpilot was somehow said in a uncertain kind "yes...it is a great plane".
Anyway, I "believe" that the F/A-22 Raptor is the best fighter jet with the SU-37 as a runner-up at the 2nd place. What I wanted to say is: Never accuse others since all of us only know about the details they (US and Russia) have released to the public. We all might get fooled/ tricked by both. Ever heard of the half-truth theory of Platon?

 

[Pursuit Curve]

TPhuang, actually the F22 is being evaluated with the first squadron deployed, the 27th FIS, and the information leaking out is...Raptors eat Eagles alive, and Falcons with gravy. To even assume that the SU family can even compete with the technology, no matter what china is developing to "break" Stealth is a pipe dream, because to break the stealth and get a lock on you would be well within visual distance, if you live that long!

The APG77, with its passive modes and the AIM120C combined with a vast and sophisticated situational awareness technology will make alot of aces in the F22. I frankly do not see any way the SU can win in BVR, and in a close in dogfight the SU would use alot of fuel just keeping up, the F119 engines can propell the Raptor at 1.4 Mach, without afterburner, so catch it first, then we will see about any dogfight capability.

From what I can see, the SU was designed to defeat or at least equal US fighter tech from the eighties (F18, F14, F15, F16, B1, B52 etc) unfotunately those aircraft are now being replaced or have been replaced.

 

[PLA2025]

As I said before, everyone has his or her own ideas and imagination of things. I am talking about the jets of nowadays and not about those who get deployed in the next 5 or ten years. I wonder why here so many guys believe erevrything the US media tells them. After all the lies from Washington (especially the Pentagon), I wonder how you believe that the information you get from the US can be that reliable. They lied in 1996 when the TWA airliner exploded and claiming it a terror by islamists when later it was found out that some US forces were conducting SAM drills and accidently hit the airliner. Then the bombings of the Chinese Embassy in 1999. They still claim that it was a mistake of the CIA which was definetly not! And what about the military fundings of China? The Pentagon claims that China would have spent 90 mio. USD this year which is unlikely. The official Chinese info is about 30 mio. while some experts say it "might be" between 40 to 60 mio.. The US government and its mediacontrol can say what they want about the Iran, Syria, China, Russia, or about their own stuff. We all should know that they use even more propaganda stuff than any other nation!
So if you guys still think that the US is that dominant in the future...just go on history told us that every nation that gets too confident it is doomed to decline.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Whoa PLA, this has gone from a discussion regarding technology to politics!
So while we are on that topis I guess Moa was a boyscout and didn't kill 70 Million People? So lets keep this discussion to the facts, and the fac6ts are that the SU series has probably reached or cannot exceed any further growth in terms of available or future capabilities regards FCS and Airframe potential, the F22 is the aircraft of tomorrow, period!

 

[PLA2025]

I don't know why you sound suddenly a bit angered. I didn't say that you were lying or else. I only told you that we all must be careful about information we get. It doesn't matter whether it is on newspaper, history books or internet. Although I must say that the internet has been offering us so many different informations about politics and technologies that it is very hard to find the whole truth. Do you know what I mean?
About Mao: You don't need to be ironic since I know enough of that man. IMO he was a splitted person (good and evil) for the Chinese people. But once again I don't know about the exact number of people who died because of the cultural revolution. But on the other hand...who tells you that it was 70 mio.? The US? the Chinese?
I guess you also heard many negative stuff about China from Western media who are always pointing their fingers at the Tienanmen incident or the Tibet question. I found out that the media here in Europe is also manipulated by the governments (freedom of press?)? I wonder why they don't talk much about the massacres in LA Watts in the 1970's when the national guards and FBI killed many Afro-Americans who were suspected to be members of the black panthers in the streets and storming homes. Most Europeans and Americans don't know why the situation in Tienanmen escalated and they also didn't know that several protesting students attacked and killed policemen and PLA soldiers while setting APC on fire before the PLA started to shoot with their rifles into the mass.
To find the whole truth we must gather information from different sources and add our own judgement. There is never a 100% guarantee of truth being released to the public. There is a big difference between "is" or "maybe":smash

ok back to the topic: I never doubted that the F/A-22 Raptor would not be the fighter jet of the near future. I only said that the Su-37 ranks currently on 2nd place right after the Raptor since the EF Typhoon is not ready combat (the jet itself has finished completion but not all of its weapons). The Su-37 might be the last of the Flanker family IMO while the F/A-22 has ignited a new generation of fighter jets (like the F-16 did when it was the very first full-electronical controlled jet with an aero-dynamically unstable air frame).

If I somehow offended you, I'm sorry because that was never my intention since I'm only sharing opinions with you not lecturing about your knowledge about modern jets and advanced weapon systems.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

I don't know why you sound suddenly a bit angered. I didn't say that you were lying or else. I only told you that we all must be careful about information we get. It doesn't matter whether it is on newspaper, history books or internet. Although I must say that the internet has been offering us so many different informations about politics and technologies that it is very hard to find the whole truth. Do you know what I mean?
About Mao: You don't need to be ironic since I know enough of that man. IMO he was a splitted person (good and evil) for the Chinese people. But once again I don't know about the exact number of people who died because of the cultural revolution. But on the other hand...who tells you that it was 70 mio.? The US? the Chinese?
I guess you also heard many negative stuff about China from Western media who are always pointing their fingers at the Tienanmen incident or the Tibet question. I found out that the media here in Europe is also manipulated by the governments (freedom of press?)? I wonder why they don't talk much about the massacres in LA Watts in the 1970's when the national guards and FBI killed many Afro-Americans who were suspected to be members of the black panthers in the streets and storming homes. Most Europeans and Americans don't know why the situation in Tienanmen escalated and they also didn't know that several protesting students attacked and killed policemen and PLA soldiers while setting APC on fire before the PLA started to shoot with their rifles into the mass.
To find the whole truth we must gather information from different sources and add our own judgement. There is never a 100% guarantee of truth being released to the public. There is a big difference between "is" or "maybe":smash

ok back to the topic: I never doubted that the F/A-22 Raptor would not be the fighter jet of the near future. I only said that the Su-37 ranks currently on 2nd place right after the Raptor since the EF Typhoon is not ready combat (the jet itself has finished completion but not all of its weapons). The Su-37 might be the last of the Flanker family IMO while the F/A-22 has ignited a new generation of fighter jets (like the F-16 did when it was the very first full-electronical controlled jet with an aero-dynamically unstable air frame).

If I somehow offended you, I'm sorry because that was never my intention since I'm only sharing opinions with you not lecturing about your knowledge about modern jets and advanced weapon systems.

PLA, there is no apology needed, I flew off the handle and I apologise.
Yes, the F22 is the new generation, and I hope and pray that niether the F22 or any other weapon of war are ever used again, but to say that I may admit my pipe dream.

The F22 is actually newer technology than the EF2000, but suffice it to say that the aircraft that have come out of the Eurofighter consortium ( Tornado)
are more than capable and will be also considered to be cutting edge (Voice activated controls and systems). The only way for the F22 to have any competetion is for other manufacturers to concentrate on aerodynamics, stealth, and totally revolutionary engine, eletronic and computer capabilities.

I am sure you are aware of the recent USAF and Indian Air Force excersise where the F15C (Not ASEA Equipped models) were given the chance to mix it up with the SU30, Mirage 2000, MIG 27, Mig 21 and I believe also the Jaguar.

While the excersise did not allow for a realistic scenario, the results were startling to say the least, the SU30 with Indian pilots did very well.

 

[tphuang]

TPhuang, actually the F22 is being evaluated with the first squadron deployed, the 27th FIS, and the information leaking out is...Raptors eat Eagles alive, and Falcons with gravy. To even assume that the SU family can even compete with the technology, no matter what china is developing to "break" Stealth is a pipe dream, because to break the stealth and get a lock on you would be well within visual distance, if you live that long!

The APG77, with its passive modes and the AIM120C combined with a vast and sophisticated situational awareness technology will make alot of aces in the F22. I frankly do not see any way the SU can win in BVR, and in a close in dogfight the SU would use alot of fuel just keeping up, the F119 engines can propell the Raptor at 1.4 Mach, without afterburner, so catch it first, then we will see about any dogfight capability.

From what I can see, the SU was designed to defeat or at least equal US fighter tech from the eighties (F18, F14, F15, F16, B1, B52 etc) unfotunately those aircraft are now being replaced or have been replaced.

why is this comment directed at me? I'm not questioning the effective of F-22. I think the only plane that I would even dare to put against F-22 at the moment is F-35 or the typhoon.

As for F-22's RCS, I read that it's 0.0027 m^2.

 

[PLA2025]

apology fully accepted, although I must say that you didn't offended me neither =)
anyway, the EF Typhoon shows the the fact that the European plane makers were seeking for a jet that could compete with the F-15, F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29 and Su-27 jets or even dominate over them in air-to-air combat scenarios. But the Russians and Americans were not sleeping and also developed more advanced jets of the 4th generation (Su-35, Su-37) and even 5th (F/A-22, F-35-JSF). The US was the only one to develop an stealth fighter which could sneak into enemy airzones while the Russians were mainly concerned to build better air-to-air jets but based on the available platforms.
The EF Typhoon can do the Super Cruise but lacks in stealth and vector nozzles. If the Europeans don't want to buy more F-16 or F/A-18 from the US, they need their domestic Eurofighter. While Russian and Chinese have started development to built 5th stealth fighter jets, it is currently unlikely that the European plane makers would do the same for within the next 10 years since they might seek to obtain the JSF from the US.