F-15 next?

[kinggodzilla87]

F-15 next?

Due to the high price of the F-22 Raptor, there has been talk of some upgrades to the F-15 eagle to supplement the F-22 Raptor. This includes some LO modifications, a more powerful radar, the high off-boresight missle launching thingy and thrust vectoring engines.

What are your opinions on doing the same thing to the F-15 that Sukoi did with the Su-27 - Su-30MKI conversion? Do you think its worth it?

 

[Tornado F3]

I think its worth it because the F-15 is proved to be a very capable jet in combat.

 

[kinggodzilla87]

Some to add
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15

Future
The F-15C/D model is being supplanted in U.S. service by the F-22 Raptor. The F-15E however will remain in service for years to come because of its different air-to-ground role and the low number of hours on their airframes. 18 USAF F-15Cs have been retrofitted with the AN/APG-63(v)2 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars and are expected to remain in service with the USAF well past 2020. The Royal Saudi Air Force has purchased several squadrons of long-range F-15S models, the Republic of Korea is purchasing upgraded F-15Ks, and Singapore is purchasing the F-15SG variant.

There is debate within the United States concerning F-15 modernization versus retirement. This is due primarily to the cost of the F-22 Raptor, which will make it difficult if not impossible to replace the F-15 on a one-for-one basis (possibly as little as one-for-three). The F-15 might therefore be kept in a supporting role so that the USAF does not face a numerical disadvantage in future conflicts. Such upgrades could include an AESA radar, Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS), and addition of low-observable modifications, or replacement of engines with thrust-vectoring models.

On September 26, 2006 at the Air Force Association's Air & Space Conference and Technology Exposition in Washington D.C., the USAF announced their plan to upgrade 178 F-15C fighters with the AN/APG-63(v)3 AESA radar. Additionally, the Air Force also plans to upgrade other F-15s with the JHMCS.[1] These 178 F-15Cs as well as the 224 F-15Es are planned to be in service to beyond 2025

 

[Magoo]

F-15 next?

Due to the high price of the F-22 Raptor, there has been talk of some upgrades to the F-15 eagle to supplement the F-22 Raptor. This includes some LO modifications, a more powerful radar, the high off-boresight missle launching thingy and thrust vectoring engines.

What are your opinions on doing the same thing to the F-15 that Sukoi did with the Su-27 - Su-30MKI conversion? Do you think its worth it?

About six weeks ago, the USAF Chief 'Buzz' Moseley said the USAF "will never buy another F-15...".

It's F-22s, F-35s and/or UCAVs from now on folks!

Cheers

Magoo

 

[kinggodzilla87]

you got a link for that?

 

[Rich]

About six weeks ago, the USAF Chief 'Buzz' Moseley said the USAF "will never buy another F-15...".

It's F-22s, F-35s and/or UCAVs from now on folks!

Cheers

Magoo

Unfortunately for him such decisions will be made by congress. The trouble for USAF is once again they pull a smoke and mirrors act on next generation fighters, this time around made
more complicated by the absence of the Soviet bloc air forces.

Smoke and mirrors regarding costs, numbers needed, and future threats. Now they are running around willy-nilly over the SU-gap and how helpless the F-teens are against them.

Ive always supported the F-22 program but just once I wish USAF would come right out and say how much the damn thing is going to cost. And this latest "Cope India" series of shams??? Gosh almighty do they think John Taxpayer is really that stupid? Do they really think we wouldn't be able to find out, in the Internet age, the severe restrictions, lack of certain equipments, and complete trashing of doctrine?

And before Moseley gets his play money, from the taxpayer, hes going to have to stand in front of the elected representatives of the taxpayer and explain exactly why he needs all these 200 m fighters, and, exactly who they are needed against. Then they will tell him what hes going to buy or not.

 

[webmaster]

you got a link for that?

Here is somewhat related article for that:

Apr 5, 2007
CSAF's Scope vectors on fifth-generation fighters
Military Aviation
The CSAF's Scope focuses on current topics the Air Force chief of staff feels are of special importance to today's Airmen, and the latest topic to come into view on the scope is fifth-generation fighters. Read More...

 

[rjmaz1]

Definitely no more F-15's.

The F-35 has nearly all the performance of the F-15 with the added bonus of stealth.

The USAF cannot afford to even buy both the F-22's and F-35's. Upgrading F-15's will mean less F-35's. The F-35 price will then go up and end up costing more when upgraded F-15's were meant to save money

I believe all F-15C's, F-117's and early F-16's should be retired or sold second hand as soon as possible. Halve the number of A-10's being upgraded so money is saved and the F-35 can come earlier. Selling these aircraft in flying condition would provide money to buy more F-35's and F-22's driving down the individual price, or atleast stop the death spiral.

The US is getting very close to the point where it cannot afford all its F-35's. Reductions in orders will mean the price will go up, thats the beggining of the death spiral and must be avoided at all costs. If retiring all the F-15's prevents this death spiral then it must be done as soon as possible.

That is why the USAF needs the F-35 and F-22. Cant go back now and decide not to buy them.

 

[Rich]

Sell them? Sell them to who? We wouldn't sell F-15s to anyone but close allies in the first place, and all of them want F-35s. Not 2'nd hand bargain basement Eagles. The same goes for the F-16s, tho the F-16 might be a little easier to pawn off since its so widely flown already. The F-117?? Forget it! We wouldn't sell that to anyone even if it did have meaningful flight hours left on it, which it doesn't.

Any kind of flight left on the 117 would mean inordinate maintenance man hours would have to spent on it to keep it flying. And again any potential customers want the F-35 instead. The F-35 is a far more versatile and capable war bird.

So there aint going to be any garage sale of F-teens. If anything we will give away some F-16s. These are still very capable airplanes and we dont want just anyone getting their mits on one. Most of all if they have advanced avionics/radars/software on/in them.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Definitely no more F-15's.

The F-35 has nearly all the performance of the F-15 with the added bonus of stealth.

The USAF doesn't think so. Thats also why Block III is drawn up.

The USAF cannot afford to even buy both the F-22's and F-35's. Upgrading F-15's will mean less F-35's. The F-35 price will then go up and end up costing more when upgraded F-15's were meant to save money

Its a capability issue against a delivery issue. WTF would the USAF stick their F15's in the boneyard like that? Its why they stage overlaps in the first place. Draw up a gant chart and see why they're retaining F15's.

I believe all F-15C's, F-117's and early F-16's should be retired or sold second hand as soon as possible. Halve the number of A-10's being upgraded so money is saved and the F-35 can come earlier.

Again, there is a reason why A10's and B1's have had CAS and capability upgrades. No JSF is anywhere near being able to undertake the long range strike of the B1.

F117's are slated for retirement - and are already less "stealthy" than the F-22. The platform is in the process of decommissioning. Early F16's are already in the boneyard. The primo F15 squadrons are already in the same locations where the F22's are going to be based. Those F15's will then in all likelihood revert to ANG ownership.

Selling these aircraft in flying condition would provide money to buy more F-35's and F-22's driving down the individual price, or at least stop the death spiral.

Sell them to who? Its their cover aircraft. All existing F15 owners have already got their numbers. Mothballing early on some silly pretext that it will save anticipated monies igores basic issues like delivery schedules and capability requirements.

The US is getting very close to the point where it cannot afford all its F-35's. Reductions in orders will mean the price will go up, thats the beggining of the death spiral and must be avoided at all costs. If retiring all the F-15's prevents this death spiral then it must be done as soon as possible.

Retiring an aircraft that already has demonstrated efficiencies of scale and service, already has logistic streams in place - and you want to turn them out for an aicraft that has not even got a training and dev squadron formed up - and thats years away as well.

That is why the USAF needs the F-35 and F-22. Cant go back now and decide not to buy them.

They're not changing anything - what has happened is that the capability requirements against budget has shifted. The numbers are shifting because other assets need to be considered as well. The F-22 build window closes in 2010 (IIRC) - at that point it doesn't matter anymore anyway.

 

[kinggodzilla87]

The USAF doesn't think so. Thats also why Block III is drawn up.



Its a capability issue against a delivery issue. WTF would the USAF stick their F15's in the boneyard like that? Its why they stage overlaps in the first place. Draw up a gant chart and see why they're retaining F15's.



Again, there is a reason why A10's and B1's have had CAS and capability upgrades. No JSF is anywhere near being able to undertake the long range strike of the B1.

F117's are slated for retirement - and are already less "stealthy" than the F-22. The platform is in the process of decommissioning. Early F16's are already in the boneyard. The primo F15 squadrons are already in the same locations where the F22's are going to be based. Those F15's will then in all likelihood revert to ANG ownership.



Sell them to who? Its their cover aircraft. All existing F15 owners have already got their numbers. Mothballing early on some silly pretext that it will save anticipated monies igores basic issues like delivery schedules and capability requirements.



Retiring an aircraft that already has demonstrated efficiencies of scale and service, already has logistic streams in place - and you want to turn them out for an aicraft that has not even got a training and dev squadron formed up - and thats years away as well.



They're not changing anything - what has happened is that the capability requirements against budget has shifted. The numbers are shifting because other assets need to be considered as well. The F-22 build window closes in 2010 (IIRC) - at that point it doesn't matter anymore anyway.

where you find all this out?

 

[gf0012-aust]

where you find all this out?

Various sources. The CAS data comes from areas such as US Air Forces News etc which is a daily email alert I get.

The other explicit data has been in various industry publications and media sources over the last few years. Atypically JED, DID, JDW and even MENews.

The rest of it is logical and some of that is based on my own experience in dealing with projects and how Govt "thinks"

 

[knightz33]

Maybe the f-15 should go through some modifications for ground attack capabilities....But on the other hand, we're talking about the f-22, the world's most advance fighter now. We're moving on the 21st century planes, not a plane that entered service in 1989( i was referring to the f-15e). Though it may be a powerful plane, but America must move on.....

Take the zero fighter for instance, it was considered a formidable plane, but does that mean that we should continue using the zero fighter??? Likewise, we should move on to find a better plane like the f-22 or the f-35...

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

If you upgraded the F15 with most of the stuff that has allready been developed, like 2D thrust vectoring and canards on the F15 active, a version of the F119's, APG 81/77/79, other avionics picked up from other platforms, You would end up with a platform that would be more than a match for any forseable advanced flanker variants. It would be a fearsome Air dominace platform that would only be socond to the F22, and would be much cheaper. If you want to spend the money intergrating all of these systems that is. Then it doesent seem to be a bad idea at all.

 

[Scorpion82]

If you upgraded the F15 with most of the stuff that has allready been developed, like 2D thrust vectoring and canards on the F15 active, a version of the F119's, APG 81/77/79, other avionics picked up from other platforms, You would end up with a platform that would be more than a match for any forseable advanced flanker variants. It would be a fearsome Air dominace platform that would only be socond to the F22, and would be much cheaper. If you want to spend the money intergrating all of these systems that is. Then it doesent seem to be a bad idea at all.

But all these changes will increase weight and rise costs... Putting in F-119 would further increase costs due to required redesign. Doesn't makes much sense. A TVC equiped derivate of the F110-GE-132 would be a cheaper and still good option IMHO. You also don't need canards if you have TVC.

 

[jaffo4011]

you've got to say that with hindsite there was no real need to develop the f22 when you had such a capable platform as the f15.it would have been more than capable,with suitable upgrades,of being able to match the kind of hardware being produced by russia/china etc.

the europeans had a more urgent need with their air superiority aircraft such as the tornado f3,german phantoms and italian f104's requiring more urgent replacement(although the f3 has turned out,with major technological improvements such as amraam,asraam and jitds to be an aircraft to be reckoned with).

 

[Scorpion82]

you've got to say that with hindsite there was no real need to develop the f22 when you had such a capable platform as the f15.it would have been more than capable,with suitable upgrades,of being able to match the kind of hardware being produced by russia/china etc.

the europeans had a more urgent need with their air superiority aircraft such as the tornado f3,german phantoms and italian f104's requiring more urgent replacement(although the f3 has turned out,with major technological improvements such as amraam,asraam and jitds to be an aircraft to be reckoned with).

Russia is working on 5th gen fighters as well, an upgraded Eagle might have tremdous difficulties against such a fighter. Even the newer Flankers are more than a match for the newest Eagles, so a superior platform like the Raptor is necessary to maintain an edge or at least win the lost one back.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

But all these changes will increase weight and rise costs...

With extra weight you are getting alot of extra thrust that will more than ofset this.

Putting in F-119 would further increase costs due to required redesign. Doesn't makes much sense.

There would be some cost in redesign. However you dont just throw away a capability because of some extra cost. The whole point of this more capable F15 is to ba able to defeat more capable advanced flanker variants that will be able to supercruise with the AL41F which is in the pipes. So unles you put a version of the F119 the major threat aircraft will have a large kinematic advantage. And the production lines on the F119 are open now, so i'm not sure the cost would ofset the capability.

A TVC equiped derivate of the F110-GE-132 would be a cheaper and still good option IMHO. You also don't need canards if you have TVC.

A F110 will still be a F110 even with TVC and will be compleatly outperformed by the AL41F. So then the whole pint of this upgrade, to have a more capable platform that advanced flanker variants, would not be met.

And canrads are very usefull even with TVC. F15 MDST, F15 ACTIVE and SU30/37 all have both for a reason. TVC helps your roll rate, sub and supersonic manuver, however a combinationof TVC and Canards allows a platform to generate massive angles of attack which is vital for WVR combat, which TVC alone will not come close to matching. And therefore if you leave them off you hand the primary threat platform an advantage.

AESA equiped and networked F15's allready has the avionics, SA and networking advantage, with these upgrades which have all already been designed and tested, the only advantages the flanker has (which are big), its raw performance will be in the F15's court. But still for the USAF, the money would be better spent more raptors, which would still be much more capable.

 

[alexsa]

If you upgraded the F15 with most of the stuff that has allready been developed, like 2D thrust vectoring and canards on the F15 active, a version of the F119's, APG 81/77/79, other avionics picked up from other platforms, You would end up with a platform that would be more than a match for any forseable advanced flanker variants. It would be a fearsome Air dominace platform that would only be socond to the F22, and would be much cheaper. If you want to spend the money intergrating all of these systems that is. Then it doesent seem to be a bad idea at all.

Such mods are still going to cost quite a bit to incorprate let alone the cost of the airplne itself (the f-15S is not cheap). Such expenditure has to come from somewhare and it will detract from opther budgets (like the F-22 and JSF).

In the end the aircraft will still have a very large RCS and will be easier to counter by ongoing evolution of the Su series than the intended F-22/F-35 combination.

 

[Scorpion82]

With extra weight you are getting alot of extra thrust that will more than ofset this.

More thrust might offset the increased weight in terms of TWR, but the higher wing loading can't be affected by more thrust. That's the very reason why newer F-16s are less manoeuvreable than the earlier ones, despite the higher thrust.

There would be some cost in redesign. However you dont just throw away a capability because of some extra cost. The whole point of this more capable F15 is to ba able to defeat more capable advanced flanker variants that will be able to supercruise with the AL41F which is in the pipes. So unles you put a version of the F119 the major threat aircraft will have a large kinematic advantage. And the production lines on the F119 are open now, so i'm not sure the cost would ofset the capability.

Sorry but that is overhyped crap and sounds very much like Carlo Kopp. The Su-35 will receive the AL-41F1A which is in the same thrust class as the F110-GE-132. The alleged supercruise capability of the new Flanker with that engines has still to be proven and recent news suggest it's only achieved clean. Clean makes not much sense in combat and the question is how fast would the aircraft be? The AL-41F1 which is developed for the PAK FA is a completly different engine, but that's not going to be integrated into any Flanker AFAIK.

A F110 will still be a F110 even with TVC and will be compleatly outperformed by the AL41F. So then the whole pint of this upgrade, to have a more capable platform that advanced flanker variants, would not be met.

See above that's simply pathetic and wrong. AL-41F is not AL-41F1 and that isn't AL-41F1A. These mentioned engines are all different.

And canrads are very usefull even with TVC. F15 MDST, F15 ACTIVE and SU30/37 all have both for a reason. TVC helps your roll rate, sub and supersonic manuver, however a combinationof TVC and Canards allows a platform to generate massive angles of attack which is vital for WVR combat, which TVC alone will not come close to matching. And therefore if you leave them off you hand the primary threat platform an advantage.

The russians added the canards to the Flanker at a time when TVC wasn't available, they kept them when TVC became available and deleted them now for the latest Su-35. Why? With TVC you don't need canards to achieve super manoeuvreability that's proven by the MiG-29M-OVT and the F-22A. Canards primarily add weight and drag to a platform with conventional tail.

AESA equiped and networked F15's allready has the avionics, SA and networking advantage, with these upgrades which have all already been designed and tested, the only advantages the flanker has (which are big), its raw performance will be in the F15's court.

The Flankers performance isn't going to be that superior especially not in terms of super sonic manoeuvreability, speed, altitude performance, acceleration and climb rate. The superior sub sonic agility is more irrelevant for BVR. BTW I wouldn't bet on the F-15s having a great avionics advantage over newest Flanker derivates.

But still for the USAF, the money would be better spent more raptors, which would still be much more capable.

On that one I agree.