European Union, member states and Agencies

[StingrayOZ]

It will be interesting to see if EU members and EU defence manufacturing will fully commit to an integrated defence. As for American companies being locked out, probably unlikely unless military kit production is really ramped up along with solid R&D. if the US wants long term future EU business it will have to do what the US makes EU vendors do, make the stuff locally.

Japan has no problems making US equipment. Basically nothing comes across that is entirely US made.
The Koreans are the same. Almost nothing is purchased wholely US made.

Both made big booboos with the F-35. I think they thought they would have to commit to

But the Japanese are smart. They order actual volume of stuff, so they get some scale of efficiency. But they don't have to redesign every military item from scratch.

I don't think the Americans have a problem with the EU licence builing thousands of copies of equipment. As we are finding out with AUKUS. Most American manufacturers only want to deal with American military spending, not look after volatile overseas buys.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Something is probably going on within the EU, I can't frankly explain what happened last night.
In the middle of the night ( 3am CET ) the EU Council and Parliament, after all-out negotiations, reached aggrements on:
European Digital Identity:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/29/council-and-parliament-strike-a-deal-on-a-european-digital-identity-eid/

European Data Act:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/27/data-act-council-and-parliament-strike-a-deal-on-fair-access-to-and-use-of-data/

Judicial cooperation and Digitalisation:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/28/digital-justice-council-and-european-parliament-conclude-deal-on-proposals-on-digitalisation-of-judicial-cooperation-and-citizens-access-to-justice/

Central Securities Depositories and Cross-Border operations:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/27/central-securities-depositories-council-and-parliament-reach-agreement/

Cross-Border evidence access:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/27/council-adopts-eu-laws-on-better-access-to-electronic-evidence/

And the day before:
Creation of Common EU cybersecurity Agency:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/26/cybersecurity-at-the-eu-institutions-bodies-offices-and-agencies-council-and-parliament-reach-provisional-agreement/

Banking sector strenghtening reform ( Basel III ):

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/27/banking-sector-provisional-agreement-reached-on-the-implementation-of-basel-iii-reforms/

I suppose they wanted to reach agreements ( not effective laws yet ) before today's EU Council meeting...
Very strange.

 

[Stuart M]

Something is probably going on within the EU, I can't frankly explain what happened last night.
In the middle of the night ( 3am CET ) the EU Council and Parliament, after all-out negotiations, reached aggrements on:
European Digital Identity:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/29/council-and-parliament-strike-a-deal-on-a-european-digital-identity-eid/

European Data Act:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/27/data-act-council-and-parliament-strike-a-deal-on-fair-access-to-and-use-of-data/

Judicial cooperation and Digitalisation:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/28/digital-justice-council-and-european-parliament-conclude-deal-on-proposals-on-digitalisation-of-judicial-cooperation-and-citizens-access-to-justice/

Central Securities Depositories and Cross-Border operations:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/27/central-securities-depositories-council-and-parliament-reach-agreement/

Cross-Border evidence access:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/27/council-adopts-eu-laws-on-better-access-to-electronic-evidence/

And the day before:
Creation of Common EU cybersecurity Agency:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/26/cybersecurity-at-the-eu-institutions-bodies-offices-and-agencies-council-and-parliament-reach-provisional-agreement/

Banking sector strenghtening reform ( Basel III ):

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/06/27/banking-sector-provisional-agreement-reached-on-the-implementation-of-basel-iii-reforms/

I suppose they wanted to reach agreements ( not effective laws yet ) before today's EU Council meeting...
Very strange.

Well, no, its not strange at all. The basis of the EU is "Ever closer union", such measures are to be expected to achieve its purpose.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

We can finally comment on what happened in the weekend.
Political elections were held in Spain after the socialist Government of Pedro Sanchez lost bad in the regional elections last month and failed to secure its Government majority.
Polls predicted an easy win for the popular-conservative party "Partido Popular" and many analysts also predicted a very solid result for the extreme right-wing party "VOX".

In fact, nothing of this happenened.
The Socialist party did not collapse at all and was able to reach a good number of seats.
The Popular Party performed well but couldnt get any majority.
The sovranist-nationalist VOX party collapsed, going from a prediction of 25% of votes ( They currently have 18% of seats in Parliament ) to a tragic 12%, losing badly in every region.

Election has left Spain in political disarray. What could happen next?

The Spanish general election was expected to be a bellwether for the political direction of the European Union as a whole. #EuropeNews

www.euronews.com

 

[SolarisKenzo]

The 2023 EDF, published by the EU Commission and EDA, is the new "planning tool" the EU started using only a few years ago to bring together European member states and their industries in common European projects.
This year's EDF includes:
- MGCS aka European Main Ground Combat System ( or new European MBT )
- New 155mm artillery piece to be new European artillery ( both SPG and towed )
- New MLRS system
- New STOL tactical UAV
- SATOC ( Strategic Air Transport Outsized Cargo ), a new strategic transport plane.

European Defence Fund (EDF) - Official Webpage of the European Commission.

European Defence Fund (EDF) - Official Webpage of the European Commission.

defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu

 

[ngatimozart]

The 2023 EDF, published by the EU Commission and EDA, is the new "planning tool" the EU started using only a few years ago to bring together European member states and their industries in common European projects.
This year's EDF includes:
- MGCS aka European Main Ground Combat System ( or new European MBT )
- New 155mm artillery piece to be new European artillery ( both SPG and towed )
- New MLRS system
- New STOL tactical UAV
- SATOC ( Strategic Air Transport Outsized Cargo ), a new strategic transport plane.

European Defence Fund (EDF) - Official Webpage of the European Commission.

European Defence Fund (EDF) - Official Webpage of the European Commission.

defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu

Well if they are going to design and build a strategic airlifter they had better do a far better job than they did with the A400M and NH90. Maybe they should bring Antonov onboard because they do have experience designing and building such aircraft.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Well if they are going to design and build a strategic airlifter they had better do a far better job than they did with the A400M and NH90. Maybe they should bring Antonov onboard because they do have experience designing and building such aircraft.

A400M was indeed a very unfortunate plane but many of the problem were and are being solved.
Certainly Airbus did not do a good job in the early stage and the plane's name was compromised.
I hope but also think that bringing Airbus and Leonardo in the same program will help in making a true strategic airlifter.
I don't think Antonov will be involved at all and actually I think Antonov is a dead-man walking.

Regarding the NH-90, I wouldn't really agree with your statement.
It is, of course, disliked by some countries but others really can operate with it greatly...
So I don't know, it is surely a complex and expensive heli but also a very capable platform.

 

[Stuart M]

Regarding the NH-90, I wouldn't really agree with your statement.
It is, of course, disliked by some countries but others really can operate with it greatly...
So I don't know, it is surely a complex and expensive heli but also a very capable platform.

I think that NH90 is OK, but its a helicopter that is "high maintenance " and does require users to be very strict on that maintenance and its support systems. It's not a helicopter that can be neglected without severe repercussions, and I think the experiences of NZ and Australia show this, one has got it right and the other hasn't.
The worry I have for the NH90 is that it will be hard to maintain in the field in war time when things may slide for whatever reason.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

I think that NH90 is OK, but its a helicopter that is "high maintenance " and does require users to be very strict on that maintenance and its support systems. It's not a helicopter that can be neglected without severe repercussions, and I think the experiences of NZ and Australia show this, one has got it right and the other hasn't.
The worry I have for the NH90 is that it will be hard to maintain in the field in war time when things may slide for whatever reason.

That's exactly my worry too.
While being a very modern and capable heli, it is probably too expensive to operate and maintain compared to a platform like the Black Hawk, that has proven to be very effective and also easy to operate.

 

[John Fedup]

Well if they are going to design and build a strategic airlifter they had better do a far better job than they did with the A400M and NH90. Maybe they should bring Antonov onboard because they do have experience designing and building such aircraft.

A turbofan might have made the A400M venture less painful.

 

[ngatimozart]

A turbofan might have made the A400M venture less painful.

Exactly, but this happens when you design by committee. I wonder what class they are looking for in their proposed airlifter? Will it be in the C-17A region? I think that if it is, they get it right and use some common sense, they could have a good platform with potentially strong export orders, given that the C-17A is no longer manufactured.

 

[swerve]

A turbofan might have made the A400M venture less painful.

Except something was wanted which could use shorter, rougher runways than a turbofan was thought suitable for. The fact that it has turbofans is being used as an argument against the C-390.

 

[John Fedup]

Except something was wanted which could use shorter, rougher runways than a turbofan was thought suitable for. The fact that it has turbofans is being used as an argument against the C-390.

Certainly the A400M engine development was a disappointment. If P&W Canada got involved with the project and Canada became a partner perhaps things would have been better…well at least the P&W Canada part.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Certainly the A400M engine development was a disappointment. If P&W Canada got involved with the project and Canada became a partner perhaps things would have been better…well at least the P&W Canada part.

Bye bye construction autonomy, the entire point of the Europrop consortium was to avoid partnerships with foreigners...

 

[John Fedup]

Bye bye construction autonomy, the entire point of the Europrop consortium was to avoid partnerships with foreigners...

As an expensive export product, sometimes foreign investment can help sales. The key is what percentage. With Brexit, is the UK foreign?

 

[swerve]

Bye bye construction autonomy, the entire point of the Europrop consortium was to avoid partnerships with foreigners...

And in particular, a US veto on sales. I think a P&W Canada engine would have significant US content.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

As an expensive export product, sometimes foreign investment can help sales. The key is what percentage. With Brexit, is the UK foreign?

UK could be by some considered a foreign country since they left the Union, but it's really complicated.
They are europeans and were/are fundamental partners in many programs.
Canada is literally another Continent...

I think you don't really understand the point: the EU Commission was close to shut down the entire Eurodrone program ( a 10 billion Euros program) because the engine selected for the drone and made by Avio was based on an American engine.
Avio ( a 100% EU company ) was forced to prove US were not involved at all and was also put under EU control to check for any foreign influence.
And in the end the engine was selected and confirmed, but the drone will be built to be able to use also another engine made by Safran.

And in particular, a US veto on sales. I think a P&W Canada engine would have significant US content.

That's really important too.

 

[ngatimozart]

UK could be by some considered a foreign country since they left the Union, but it's really complicated.
They are europeans and were/are fundamental partners in many programs.
Canada is literally another Continent...

I think you don't really understand the point: the EU Commission was close to shut down the entire Eurodrone program ( a 10 billion Euros program) because the engine selected for the drone and made by Avio was based on an American engine.
Avio ( a 100% EU company ) was forced to prove US were not involved at all and was also put under EU control to check for any foreign influence.
And in the end the engine was selected and confirmed, but the drone will be built to be able to use also another engine made by Safran.

That's really important too.

I see that there is talk within the UK of wanting to rejoin the EU. They're starting to learn that Brexit wasn't their best idea. The real point, and I don't know if the Poms have thought of this, is that the EU mightn't want them back.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

I see that there is talk within the UK of wanting to rejoin the EU. They're starting to learn that Brexit wasn't their best idea. The real point, and I don't know if the Poms have thought of this, is that the EU mightn't want them back.

No one in the EU want the UK back, that's a fact.

 

[Stuart M]

I see that there is talk within the UK of wanting to rejoin the EU. They're starting to learn that Brexit wasn't their best idea. The real point, and I don't know if the Poms have thought of this, is that the EU mightn't want them back.

There's been talk of that since 2016, but more a case if them readjusting to being an independent nation again, once they sort themselves out they'll be fine.