European Armour

[Waylander]

No, there are no mortars attached to our mech.-inf..
Our light and mountain infantry fields 120mm mortars transported by Wolf (Or by foot in bad terrain, poor bastards ).

We are going to introduce 120mm mortars on Wiesel 2 but there are no definite numbers and facts how they are going to be implemented.

The Boxer is comming (Thanks to the netherlands).
200 as APC, 40 as command vehicle and we have an option for 72 as ambulances.
I put them together with our Fuchs into the list.

Some hundred Leo 2A4 will remain in stocks and some A4s will remain at the tank school and as OPFOR at our battle training center.

Our stocks are still full of vehicles of all kind.
But most of our inactive btls are now out of service.
But we are still a conscriptors army so we are able to field much more numbers in the case of war. Should be somewhere around 800.000 soldiers.

 

[rattmuff]

Swedish Army armoured things

Swedish Armed Forces share of GDP 2005: 1,52%
Swedish Armed Forces budget 2006: 40 billion SEK (€4 billion)

The numbers of Swedish Army is really hard to find out. SAF is in the middle of a huge change.

MBTs
160 Leopard 2A4(the worst L2A4 in Europe)
120 Leopard 2A5S

IFVs/APCs/Troop transports
509 CV90(all versions, models, projects, experiments, demonstrators)
84 Patria XA-203
18 Patria XA-202
70 Patria XA-180
13 Piranha III 10x10 ASV/ACV
? All terrain cars from a South African company
? MT-LB
? BMP-1
? PE491 ARTHUR (artillery locating radar)



Self-propelled artillery
26 155mm self-propelled howitzer
2 Artillerysystem 08 ARCHER (demonstrators)
1 AS90 Bravehart (leased)

 

[Waylander]

Ok, who's left?

We have:
-Germany
-Denmark
-Sweden
-Spain
-Portugal
-France
-Netherlands
-Norway
-Finland
-Greece
-Ireland

We need:
-Poland
-UK
-Italy
-Belgium
-Czechia
-Austria
-Luxembourg

I think except from Austria we have active members here wo could give us the actual numbers.
I don't know how accurate these datas here are.

http://globaldefence.net/defence/projekt_streitkraefte_der_welt/

(Don't worry, it's partly in english)

 

[RA1911]

Norway:

* 52 Leopard 2 A4NO
* 62 Leopard 1 A5NO
* 104 CV 9030 N
* 500 M-113 (various)
* 74 SISU/PASI
* 36 M 109 A3GN
* 12 stk MLRS

 

[Gollevainen]

Yo, the defenders of the east borders of EU....

Finland:

254 MBTs of which 160 are T-72M1s and the rest is propaply Leo 2A4s I dont know how much there is any T-55s left but not much and certainly not in training any longer....

670 AIFVs of which some ~150 are BMP-1/2s and rest is mostly Sisu XA-180 and derivates plus few MT-Lbs and the new CV9030s entering service in the Karelian brigade. The Patria AMV is currently beeing evaluated, but not yet fielded. The total numbers of the later two are going to be rather small, as they (clewerly :tomato ) are only going to equip single brigade each....

Also, there is some 90 SP artillery systems of the USSR 122mm 2S1 and 152mm 2S5 as well as the new MRLS system bougth from Netherlands, but those arent yet on service (At least what i have heard...)

 

[KWSN-Men]

Greece:

MBT's
170 Leopard 2A6 HEL (ordered, deleveries start soon)
184 Leopard 2A4 (under delievery from German surplus, will be probably later upgraded to A6 HEL standards)
501 Leo 1A5 (including 232 under delievery from German surplus)
103 Leo 1A3GR
115 Leo 1V
307 M-60TTS
273 M-60 RISE/RISE PASSIVE (being slowly withdrawn)
396 M-48A5 MOLF
259 M-48A5 (being withdrwan)


ARMOURED VEHICLES
415 Marder 1A3 (Will be delivered from German surplus)
501 BMP-1 (Will be withdrawn)
100 Leonidas 1 (Will be upgraded to Leonidas 2 standards, Austrian 4K4FA variant)
392 Leonidas 2
1679 M113A1/A2 (About 2400 seem to exist in different versions)
54 M113A1 medics
200+ M125A1/A2 (with M29 81 mm mortar)
291 M901A1/A2 ITV (With TOW's)
256 M106A1/A2 (107mm mortar M30, 120 will be equipped with an E-56 120 mm mortar)
200- M125A1 (with 81mm M29 mortar)
12 M113 TOW
56 M577A2

Artillery
36 Pzh 2000 (12 on order, additional 48 will be purchased from Dutch and German surplus)
12 M-109A5
146 M-109A3 (96 on order from German surplus)
82 M-109A2 (plans for upgrading)
51 M-109A1 (plans for upgrading)
145 M-110A2
36 M270 MLRS
116 RM-70

Should I mention the A/A stuff too or is this enough for a good addition to the European force?

 

[.pt]

armour

update,

So far we have the folowing numbers:

1 - MBT 1st line (leopard 2 A5/A6+Leclerc) - 1518 units (plus reserves)
MBT 2nd/3rd line various types - 2872 units(plus reserves)

2 - APC/IFV/Tow/AA/scouts/90mmgun, etc etc - 18431 units
One family stands out, the M113, with 5500 units in
diferent variants.

3 - Artillery - Self Propelled gun(howitzer) - 1317 units
MLRS - 300 units

We stiil need data for the remaining countries, specially UK and Italy, wich i believe are the most significant.
.pt

 

[Grand Danois]

Norway:

* 52 Leopard 2 A4NO
* 62 Leopard 1 A5NO
* 104 CV 9030 N
* 500 M-113 (various)
* 74 SISU/PASI
* 36 M 109 A3GN
* 12 stk MLRS

In the Danish context the Leo 1A5 was mothballed. Does Norway have similar plans?

 

[merocaine]

The regular army of the Republic of Ireland has 8,500 personnel (and a reserve army of 13,000), and consists of a single division sized element made up of three infantry brigades

40 Mowag Piranha 3(APC) Armament 1x12.7mm HMG machine gun, co-ax 7.62mm machine gun, 8x 66mm smoke discharger's.Role Armoured troop transport, Ambulance, Command vehicle.
? Panhard AML 90. Armament 1x90mm gun,co-ax 7.62mm machine gun, 4x66mm smoke discharger's. Role Cavalary/scout vehicle.
? Panhard AML 30. Armament 1x30mm cannon, co-ax 7.62mm machine gun, 4x66mm smoke discharger's. Role Cavalary/scout vehicle.
? Scorpion 440 (CVRT, Light REECE Tank). Armament 1x76mm gun, co-ax 7.62mm machine gun, 4 x66mm smoke discharger's.

# Mowag Durano (Bomb Disposal Unit Vehicles, Armoured + unarmoured).
# Accmad troop transport vehicle + gun tractor in limited role for 105mm and 120mm mortar artillery.
# Ford F50 REECE vehicle (special Forces).

Expeniture per year $700 million.

 

[Waylander]

Ok, I have even Luxembourg in my list but I just forgot Ireland.
But your army seems not much bigger than Luxembourgs.

Sorry for that. :

 

[merocaine]

Hey! small but effective :nono

 

[ren0312]

The regular army of the Republic of Ireland has 8,500 personnel (and a reserve army of 13,000), and consists of a single division sized element made up of three infantry brigades

40 Mowag Piranha 3(APC) Armament 1x12.7mm HMG machine gun, co-ax 7.62mm machine gun, 8x 66mm smoke discharger's.Role Armoured troop transport, Ambulance, Command vehicle.
? Panhard AML 90. Armament 1x90mm gun,co-ax 7.62mm machine gun, 4x66mm smoke discharger's. Role Cavalary/scout vehicle.
? Panhard AML 30. Armament 1x30mm cannon, co-ax 7.62mm machine gun, 4x66mm smoke discharger's. Role Cavalary/scout vehicle.
? Scorpion 440 (CVRT, Light REECE Tank). Armament 1x76mm gun, co-ax 7.62mm machine gun, 4 x66mm smoke discharger's.

# Mowag Durano (Bomb Disposal Unit Vehicles, Armoured + unarmoured).
# Accmad troop transport vehicle + gun tractor in limited role for 105mm and 120mm mortar artillery.
# Ford F50 REECE vehicle (special Forces).

Expeniture per year $700 million.

No offence, but your defence budget as a percentage of GDP is really very small, an amount of 3.8 billion for 2005 seems to be more appropriate.

 

[ren0312]

Hey! small but effective :nono

Yeah but that still does not change the fact that your country's defence budget is simply inadequate, below 2 per cent of GDP, but then that seems to be the case for most of Europe anyway, not just your country.

 

[TrangleC]

Real democracies need their money for more important things - at least if they are that unlikely to be attacked by another army as european countries are.

Looking at the USA with their almost non existant social funding or public health care system and the stupendous military budget on the other hand that doesn't really leave enough to deal with catastrophies like the one in New Orleans, they rather fit in with other rougue states as North Korea and all those other ugly little dictatorships and military runned nations where the public is left to it's own (what often means starvation in the third world and needing 3 jobs and still not being able to live a decent life in the USA) to have enough money for weapons.

 

[ren0312]

Real democracies need their money for more important things - at least if they are that unlikely to be attacked by another army as european countries are.

Looking at the USA with their almost non existant social funding or public health care system and the stupendous military budget on the other hand that doesn't really leave enough to deal with catastrophies like the one in New Orleans, they rather fit in with other rougue states as North Korea and all those other ugly little dictatorships and military runned nations where the public is left to it's own (what often means starvation in the third world and needing 3 jobs and still not being able to live a decent life in the USA) to have enough money for weapons.

Relax, 2 to 3.5 per cent of GDP on defence won't cause an Ethiopia style famine in Germany. Is that really too much to ask, considering it will still make up less then 7 per cent of your budget at 2 per cent?

 

[.pt]

Funding

Well, the down side of ever shrinking defence budgets in European countries, is that abilities, skills and profiency in the various weapons systems tend to decrease. Also the role of armys as deterrents and force/influence projectors depends on their credibility, and on that aspect, sooner than later, European countries are lacking right now, and will be worse off in the foreseeable future.
This trend started with the end of cold war, and the existence of absurdly high stocks of war material, and that was justifiable, but, right now, the way i see it, Politicians are just saving money to use on other spending requirements, and in some cases are leaving their countries armed forces seriously depleted in Hardware and in skilled personnel, and as the americans say, if the s*** hits the fan, these countries will be in dire conditions.There must be an equilibrium somewhere in order not to degrade so much military capabilities. On the other side, seeing Greek army armour existence, and despite the Turkish question, for a country that size and GDP/Development numbers seem a bit high.
Back to topic, where are those UK and Italian figures???:lam
As well of those other remining countries, no offence.
.pt

 

[merocaine]

Yeah I knew it's pretty miniscule but thats the product of many things, most Irish people are really anti-military, we had some problems with large countrys that had large miliary budgets, and it kind of put us off having big fancy militarys.

Also were nutural and dont have any military alliences(or quarrells) with our neighbours at the moment.

We,re an Island with in military terms is worth 5 devisions. So it doesent make much sense to have a large army.

We do punch above our weight in the UN peace keeping operations and about 15% of our troops are abroad at anytime.

That may change soon if the european battle groups take off as it will alter our nutrality and force budget rises.

On average though there quite well trained, and in engagements on peace keeping missions they have preformed well. About 12% of the infantry have had ranger training (based on us Rangers) and would make good counter insurgency troops.
I can't see us ever joining NATO or a US/British Collition, but a European Battlegroup, maybe with some of the smaller european countries, is a possiblity

 

[ren0312]

Well, the down side of ever shrinking defence budgets in European countries, is that abilities, skills and profiency in the various weapons systems tend to decrease. Also the role of armys as deterrents and force/influence projectors depends on their credibility, and on that aspect, sooner than later, European countries are lacking right now, and will be worse off in the foreseeable future.
This trend started with the end of cold war, and the existence of absurdly high stocks of war material, and that was justifiable, but, right now, the way i see it, Politicians are just saving money to use on other spending requirements, and in some cases are leaving their countries armed forces seriously depleted in Hardware and in skilled personnel, and as the americans say, if the s*** hits the fan, these countries will be in dire conditions.There must be an equilibrium somewhere in order not to degrade so much military capabilities. On the other side, seeing Greek army armour existence, and despite the Turkish question, for a country that size and GDP/Development numbers seem a bit high.
Back to topic, where are those UK and Italian figures???:lam
As well of those other remining countries, no offence.
.pt

I really do not see Greece's military spending as being too high, since it's about 4 per cent of GDP, well within the limit of 5.5 per cent of GDP, which is pretty much where I set the limit on spending in times of relative peace, which means situations such as the Cold War are not defined as being periods of relative peace, during the last year of President Kennedy's term, U.S. defence spending was around 9 per cent of GDP, and yet the U.S. economy seem to be taking this quite well still and was still booming during this time, this 5.5 per cent limit however excludes oil rich or resource rich countries like Oman and Saudi Arabia, since they can fund their military spending from oil revenues, and not by the usual method, which is from taxes, thus there really is nothing too wrong with Saudi Arabia having a military budget of 10 per cent of GDP, since they have sufficient oil revenues to fund their present military spending, and they still seem to have a lot of money left for other projects, such as infrastructure, despite this high level of defence spending.

 

[TrangleC]

U.S. defence spending was around 9 per cent of GDP, and yet the U.S. economy seem to be taking this quite well still and was still booming during this time

Of course it is because that money goes to the economy.
So it's rather a booming economy because of high military budgeds, not although.
The problem is that this (at least 4-5 of that 9 percent) is money that could be spend for social things.

It is different in 3rd world countries because they don't produce their weapons themselves, so the money spend for weapons goes to the economies of other countries.
In the USA where he weapons industry is pretty much the most important part of the whole economy, the economy would even boost more if the gouvernemnt would spend 15, 20 or 30 percent of the taxpayers money for weapons.
But that would be no use for the little man on the street. The situation is more than bad enough as it is now.

I know that i don't want to live in a state that doesn't do shit for me because he needs all the money for fancy new weapons and for invading other countries so the already ridiculously rich elites get even richer.

In my book paying taxes means to purchase the right to claim certain fundamental services from my state. And that does not only include the right to be arrested by the police if i'm driving too fast, what seems to be pretty much what it comes down to in those countries like the USA and increasingly the UK too, where they hail the freedom and self-responsibility of the individual so much. That is all bullshit. It just means that they don't have the intention to give the taxpayers what they pay for, nothing else.

 

[Waylander]

Oh shit, my little joke caused this off-topic discussion.