Europe and 5th generation aircraft

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DarthAmerica

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Well then it all depends on how dense the AD network, and how large/powerful the RLS are, right? Again if the entire AD networked to (for arguments sake) one of the new Voronezh class RLS , then there's not much chance the Raptor has. Now when I say AD, I mean modern interceptors, theater and point-defense SAMs, and lots, and lots, and lots of SPAAGs and MANPADS (so flying low is not much of an option either) integrated and datalinked. At least in theory that's what a 21st century AD network could look like.
OK let me go ahead and deal with what I think is a misunderstanding up front. By RLS I'm assuming you are referring to passive RF detection devices, acoustic detectors and all the other popularly though of anti-stealth band-aids. Those devices are very vulnerable to a lot of various EW techniques and even without that there are counter measures and EMCON control measures that are proven. Moreover, detecting that there is a threat is only part of the detect-track-kill chain. Those systems do not provide fire control quality data. Also they are listening for very faint known emissions which would be easy to duplicate via MALD-J, EF-18G, Prowler and other methods. F-22's do not fight alone against entire IAD networks.

Then there is the PHYSICAL aspect of getting an interceptor or SAM close enough to the F-22 to shoot at it and that has to happen before the small weak radar in the nose of a fighter or missile can attempt to detect it. Traveling nearly M2.0 at 60,000ft would severely limit the window of opportunity for a successful interception by a legacy fighter which can only operate at such speeds and altitude for very limited duration if at all. In essence the F-22 is flying twice as high and twice as fast as a legacy aircraft like the Su-27 or Typhoon. The difficulty of intercepting a target like this is not linear.

Compare this to a non stealthy legacy fighter trying to direct a UCAV over a comm link through the same airspace. The nonstealthy nature of the legacy fighter and comm link to the UCAV provide at least two more opportunities for detection right then and there. Those same RLS would be likely to detect the comm link and unless the UCAV was being controlled via satellite the directing fighter would have to be high enough(curvature of the earth) and close enough to actually communicate with the UCAV leaving it vulnerable to detection by long range radars. This is no substitute for a true stealthy aircraft designed to operate inside the IAD on day one. Some of the latest SAMs and AAMs can engage targets out to ranges of several hundred km.

This is not to say that slaved UCAVs will not have survivability benefits. They certainly would in some cases. But tethered to a non-stealth legacy platform they will be more limited IMHO.

-DA
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Just for future reference: the Voronezh radars are X-band radars, similar to the US HAVE STARE (the type that will also be built in the Czech republic). They'te primarily for ABM and ISR purposes, though they may be able to pull some OTH tricks. The frequency is however, not well suited for detection of stealth, afaik.
 

Dr Freud

New Member
DarthAmerica said:
In essence the F-22 is flying twice as high and twice as fast as a legacy aircraft like the Su-27 or Typhoon.
I just want to point out that F22= M1.7 supercruise vs EF =M1.2 supercruise, its 29% faster.
Still bloody difficult to intercept a faster a/c tho...
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
Are you sure about the EF not having Supercruise?

I thought the general opinion was that supercruise is above M1 and the EF can attain that (M1.2+)
Well I don't know. He did say in one of his the JAS-39 Gripen has a supercruise of Mach 1.1 but that is not true and I thought so far only the F-22 has supercruise.
 

JWCook

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Typhoon's supercruise speed is M1.5 - this is in a clean configuration and not fully laden with fuel, useful supercruise speed ie with external stores is M1.3, this has been demonstrated.

Growth engines will increase these figures.

cheers
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
OK let me go ahead and deal with what I think is a misunderstanding up front. By RLS I'm assuming you are referring to passive RF detection devices, acoustic detectors and all the other popularly though of anti-stealth band-aids. Those devices are very vulnerable to a lot of various EW techniques and even without that there are counter measures and EMCON control measures that are proven. Moreover, detecting that there is a threat is only part of the detect-track-kill chain. Those systems do not provide fire control quality data. Also they are listening for very faint known emissions which would be easy to duplicate via MALD-J, EF-18G, Prowler and other methods. F-22's do not fight alone against entire IAD networks.
No. The abbreviation RLS mean Radar Locating Station. Literally it's just a large radar which is sometimes integrated with a C2 structure. Now I'm translating the abbreviation from Russian, so I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. But I doubt common EW measures would work well against equipment that's simply that large and that powerful.

Then there is the PHYSICAL aspect of getting an interceptor or SAM close enough to the F-22 to shoot at it and that has to happen before the small weak radar in the nose of a fighter or missile can attempt to detect it. Traveling nearly M2.0 at 60,000ft would severely limit the window of opportunity for a successful interception by a legacy fighter which can only operate at such speeds and altitude for very limited duration if at all. In essence the F-22 is flying twice as high and twice as fast as a legacy aircraft like the Su-27 or Typhoon. The difficulty of intercepting a target like this is not linear.
Could the interceptor or SAM be datalinked to the abovementioned RLS and simply be on GCI?

Finally could the airspace be simply saturated with AA projectiles? If each missile fired by an S-400 say has a 5% chance of getting the kill (pretty poor, yes?) then you fire around 20 for each incoming fighter, and now they have a problem :) Again I'm talking about a heavily networked AD with practically everything datalinked. After all that seems to be the direction that warfare is moving in.

Just for future reference: the Voronezh radars are X-band radars, similar to the US HAVE STARE (the type that will also be built in the Czech republic). They'te primarily for ABM and ISR purposes, though they may be able to pull some OTH tricks. The frequency is however, not well suited for detection of stealth, afaik.
Thank you for the correction. What I should have said is a Voronezh-sized RLS, rather then referencing them directly.
 

Falcon.14

New Member
First Post. wooohooo. :D
anyways, in this day in age, the country that has the most money has the most power. this is exemplified by the u.s producing the f-22 and showing off many of its abilities. all i'm saying is that other countries definitely had and have ideas and designs to create something equal to the f-22, even better maybe. but simply the only thing they've lacked is something that the u.s has a lot of: money.
 

obrescia

Banned Member
5th gen

Whether the F-22 (F-35) should enter service is largely academic. Our 'teen' airframes are wearing out.

The F-22 tactical use issues (never mind F-35, not even worth discussion) are:

1) Primary main weapon range / Newton’s second law of motion.
2) ECM detection of mid-course update transmission(s) for main weapon.
3) Thermal signature(s) platform & main weapon.
4) Daylight contrail(s) platform & main weapon.
5) Super-cruise only at high altitude.

Reason(s)

1) Despite claim(s) of an AIM-120D version, dimensions may be the issue. First, what is the amount of propellant possible in standard AIM-120 round? Second, FMRAAM (ramjet version) fitment inside F-22 weapons bay? The Europeans who were partnered on the AIM-120 program have since embarked on a more suitable weapon, the Meteor.

If the 'kinematics' augment is to be advanced by F-22 proponents as a key capability, to sweep the airspace of enemy fighters then there are several problems. They include: combined closure rate, maneuverability, airframe thermal heating due to air friction and hot exhaust exposure.


Simplified Condition: Initial head-on frontal aspect intercept of Flanker (firing R-77M) by F-22 (firing AIM-120C). A flight of 4 to 6 Flankers flying at 500 knots, against flight of 4 Raptors flying in super cruise at 1500 knots. The combined closer rate of all aircraft would be 2000 knots (500 + 1500).

The 'kinematics' augment says that F-22 will use its faster speed to 'push' its AIM-120 missiles towards Flanker, If both opposing flights of aircraft fire their weapons, both attacker and defender missile range benefit from a head-on engagement via the closure rate. F-22 fires AIM-120C sooner but also effectively flies INTO Flankers R-77M (!) Missile range = launch aircraft speed + missile velocity + target speed. Raptor faces additional problems at higher speeds because of simple physics, Thermal airframe heating (IRST detection) and reduced maneuvering potential due to the limits of pilot G-loads. Flanker moving at 500 knots would have enormous advantage in defensive maneuvering (AIM-120 avoidance) and to turn and fire on exiting Raptor.

Whatever the remaining aircraft, they now flash past each other at approximate 2000 knots and initiate turns, Raptor now exposes it’s hot exhaust to Flanker as F-22 make a wide sweeping turn due to it 1500 knot speed/pilot G-limit. The engagement then starts all over again. Typically this involves into a classic tuning/maneuvering contest...the dogfight.

This whole this boils down to this. If F-22 press their attack, closure rates will be so high and air-air weapons malfunctions (missiles fly wide) such a regular occurrence (on both sides) that F-22 aircrews will be in a dogfight within moments after calling "fox-3" Against the advanced Flanker, this is truly a nightmare scenario.

2) Flanker will most certainly be equipped with a Threat Warning System that listens for Raptors AIM-120 mid-course update (data burst transmission) after F-22 weapon release. From here two (2) things could happen. First, the Threat Warning System triggers automatic release of expendables (chaff/flares). See page 41 'c'. Second, Flanker pilot then initiates a defensive 'beaming' or 'beam-turn' maneuver. See page 36-37 'c', page 97 ’d’.

3) IRST

Flanker uses as primary system for gun firing solution. Development/advancement cycles for IRST systems would be orders of magnitude more frequent than F-22 airframes changes, combined with IR-versions of the R-77 (R-77M1) missile being the first problem. The second is Flanker radar (slaved to IRST). The IRST may see something and then point its main radar straight at F-22, (straight to ‘track’).

The canard equipped versions of the Flanker is an astonishing aircraft. Not only has if beaten the F-15 time to clime records, but Cope India has shown the F-15 weapons package (effectively the same as US 5-Gen) is vulnerable to "less-advanced" aircraft using proper tactics/training, (i.e. Mig-21 Bison, and Su-30MK, note not MKI).

4) Self-evident

5) F-22 low-bypass engines are the key to its high altitude super cruise capability. Low bypass engines require more use of reheat (afterburner) at lower maneuvering speed and/or altitudes. This is plainly evident if one watches video of Raptor during displays.

Also F-22 unusual 'speed-brake' control scheme may also reveal its true nature as an aircraft more akin to the Lockheed YF-12, than the plane it replaces, the F-15.

If Raptor is to be flown at high altitudes and high speed vs. Advanced Flanker a situation similar to what occurred in the early stages of the Falkland conflict could emerge. Argentine Mirages stayed at high altitudes while Royal Navy Harriers remained at medium altitudes (neither side content to give away his advantage) in what is best described as a series of 'non-engagements'.

The Russians were forced to counter our superb F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18. The Flanker appears to be able to that job (F-14 w/AIM-54 was a big maybe) very (very) well. Cope India was a nasty shock to air force brass. Yes the analysts tried to diminish the results, but they said the same thing about the cobra maneuver, (which the F-22 has been out copying). Now as we all know this maneuver was just a hint at Flankers jaw dropping agility – the analysts were wrong.

An astute observer may also notice things like published range for the F-16 and even the F-15 is always with drop tanks; the Mig-29 and Sukhoi are published without tanks.

The Mig-25 was designed to counter the North American Mach-3 XB-70, the B-58 Hustler and the B-52. There is some method to their madness. The Russians still have the Mig-1.44, Su-47 and a moving target called PAK-FA. Whether they build them or not is likely an issue of need rather than finances.

The excellent range of Flanker has to do with geography/history. Russia is the largest country on earth and its history has seen Genghis Khan to the Panzer Divisions.

All Flanker (and Mig-31) really need to do is scare off our AWACS, (Joint Stars) and tankers. Bottom line is the next war will likely start and end during the flight time of an anti-awacs KS-172.

The Flanker airframe has enormous growth potential typified by the Su-27M and Su-34. The Advanced Flanker Series (canard/thrust vectoring) might just be….the most significant fighter aircraft since the Spitfire of WWII.

The Europeans tested the non-mid-course-update version of AMRAAM (AIM-120), and its kill probability dropped below that of their existing Skyflash weapon.

One last comment. If Mr. Clancy's comments are correct: that a future opponent would need to indeed track every object down to say the size of an insect to 'see' the F-22 Raptor. Uh well, they'd just focus on "insect" sized object(s), flying in a straight line, line abreast of say about a mile separation, at high altitude, around 1.5+ Mach....

Those should be your F-22s.

The Russians appear to have thought through all these issues with the precision of a chess grand master.

Checkmate?

Note: China is in possession of large numbers of Flanker. Historically however the Chinese Air Force combat performance would best be described as abysmal.

- Olaf Brescia / Sacramento, CA

c) Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units In Combat- Cooper, Tom; Bishop, Farzad; Osprey Publishing, 2004.

d) ...And Kill MiGs, Air to Air Combat From Vietnam to the Gulf War (3rd), Squadron/Signal Publications, Lou Drendel.

e) Air War South Atlantic - Ethell, Jeffrey L.; Price, Alfred - New York, NY, USA: MacMillan, 1983.


Whereas the US already has one 5th generation aircraft (F-22) and is developing another (F-35), many European countries are "stuck" with their EF, Rafale and Gripen -- all very capable aircraft that can match other aircrafts out there today and for some time to come.

However, Russia, India and Brazil are working on their own 5 gen, VLO aircraft; so does China, and it seems even Korea and Japan are moving in this direction. It will take them some time to get there (20 - 30 years?). When they do the European 4.gen aircraft may suddenly seem inadequate. What should the Europeans do? One possibility could be to purchase F-35s, some countries are already moving in this direction. Another, unlikely, scenario could be to develop a European F-35 (I don't think this will happen)


I suggest that there may be an alternative that may give a more powerful and flexible system at a lower cost: Instead of buying the F-35 one could consider a combination of 4.gen fighters and UCAV. UCAVs/UAVs will not completely replace manned fighters however for the few missions where manned aircrafts would be needed, 4.gens may do the job. One example where manned aircrafts could be needed, are "air-policing" and intercept of foreign aircrafts in peace time; I suggest a 4.gen perhaps supplemented with UAVs/UCAVs should be able to do this fine also 20-40 years into the future. For much of the rest, go UCAV.

One possible use of 4.gen fighters in "far-future" combat could be to remotely control UCAVs; in such a scenario the manned Rafale/EF/Gripen would be outside the radar range of the enemy, controlling the stealthy UCAVs operating in enemy territories. Why buy an F-35 if you can keep (and update) what you already got and use that in combination with 6.gen aircrafts?


Comments?


V.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Haha. It warms my heart that someone is of such a high opinion of our aircraft, but be forewarned, the US DoD is not stupid. Perhaps we don't see the reasons for the F-22, but I'm pretty sure they do. Now this little bit here is completely wrong.

The Mig-25 was designed to counter the North American Mach-3 XB-70, the B-58 Hustler and the B-52. There is some method to their madness. The Russians still have the Mig-1.44, Su-47 and a moving target called PAK-FA.
The 1.44 is done. It was a tech demo. It won't be built. Same for the Su-47. The PAK-FA is the main, and in practical terms almost the only (the Indian project has only begun recently, and the PAK-DA has not yet begun) next gen. aircraft being designed. Whether it will be a flying target or not remains to be seen, however need or not, if finances permit it will be built. The Flanker and Fulcrum fleets in the VVS are also nearing the end of their service life.
 

obrescia

Banned Member
5th Gen

Well it’s true the DoD is not stupid. If I’m not mistaken I believe all the guns where removed on 1950 designed aircraft because “missiles will transform the old air-air paradigm". We’ve heard this all before. Putting hi-power afterburning power plants in the stealthy airframes is a whole lot a ‘all new’ stuff. F-117 and B2 had non-afterburning engines, less thrust, less heat. Our new F-22/F-35 planes are effectively just sorely needed replacements. For the F-22, DoD needs to move the battle back up to high (icy cold) altitudes because of the SAM threat to the way we conduct air operations…over hostile territory. An F-22 like airplane would be tough to hit with SAMs. Flankers are getting older, but the SU-27M proves what’s possible in the future if needed (heavy use of composites, etc).
 

Dr Freud

New Member
obrescia said:
5) F-22 low-bypass engines are the key to its high altitude super cruise capability. Low bypass engines require more use of reheat (afterburner) at lower maneuvering speed and/or altitudes. This is plainly evident if one watches video of Raptor during displays.
Now i finally understand why F22 would ever light up the burner!
 

DarthAmerica

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Are you sure about the EF not having Supercruise?

I thought the general opinion was that supercruise is above M1 and the EF can attain that (M1.2+)

Supercruise the way it is used today is F-22 specific. Yes, other fighters have in test configurations exceeded M1.0 dry to include the old Electric Lighting from decades ago. F-15's, Typhoons and F-16's have done it as well. It's reference with the Typhoon comes from earlier in the decade when the Typhoon was in serious competition with F-Teens in Singapore, S Korea ect.

Typhoons, or any other operational combat jet other than the F-22, do not supercruise operationally outside of test environments. They don't have the endurance(check SFC), they don't have the thrust, aerodynamically they are too unclean and their engines are not designed to operate for prolonged periods under these conditions.

You will have various people with different opinions as EADs intended during their marketing campaign especially when buyers were being wooed by the F-22's debut. But if you are familiar enough with the aircraft specs, the physics or have an opportunity to talk with people who fly fighters or build jets for a living they will confirm this to you.


-DA
 

obrescia

Banned Member
5th Gen / supercruise

Exactly! The F-22 low bypass engines give high thrust at high altitude(s), not needing (reheat) burner to push F-22 through the Mach, (much like a turbo-jet?) Why does Raptor need repeatedly to use it’s afterburner during air show demonstrations? Also careful observations of video(s) seem to show some level of engine smoke at military power levels, again more akin to a low bypass/high thrust turbo-jet (?!)


Supercruise the way it is used today is F-22 specific. Yes, other fighters have in test configurations exceeded M1.0 dry to include the old Electric Lighting from decades ago. F-15's, Typhoons and F-16's have done it as well. It's reference with the Typhoon comes from earlier in the decade when the Typhoon was in serious competition with F-Teens in Singapore, S Korea ect.

Typhoons, or any other operational combat jet other than the F-22, do not supercruise operationally outside of test environments. They don't have the endurance(check SFC), they don't have the thrust, aerodynamically they are too unclean and their engines are not designed to operate for prolonged periods under these conditions.

You will have various people with different opinions as EADs intended during their marketing campaign especially when buyers were being wooed by the F-22's debut. But if you are familiar enough with the aircraft specs, the physics or have an opportunity to talk with people who fly fighters or build jets for a living they will confirm this to you.


-DA
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Supercruise the way it is used today is F-22 specific. ...


-DA
Oh no, not again! We've been over this before, the latest time very recently. Supercruise as it is used by Lockheed Martin today is F-22 specific. Since LM have changed their definition as other aircraft (notably Typhoon) have demonstrated the ability to supercruise according to their earlier definitions (& I wish I could find the list of quotes & references someone put on the web a couple of years ago, tracking LMs changing definitions!), they have proved that it is, in their current usage, a marketing term.

If you wish to debate the validity of different definitions, feel free - if you can find anyone to debate with. Be warned that this topic has been flogged to death in the last few weeks. But claims that the term has a single meaning, and that is the F-22 definition, are not tolerable. Anyone can make up a new definition for a word or phrase. It helps if they can also think up a plausible justification. But that does not make it the only correct definition, or even a correct definition.
 

DarthAmerica

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Oh no, not again! We've been over this before, the latest time very recently. Supercruise as it is used by Lockheed Martin today is F-22 specific. Since LM have changed their definition as other aircraft (notably Typhoon) have demonstrated the ability to supercruise according to their earlier definitions (& I wish I could find the list of quotes & references someone put on the web a couple of years ago, tracking LMs changing definitions!), they have proved that it is, in their current usage, a marketing term.

If you wish to debate the validity of different definitions, feel free - if you can find anyone to debate with. Be warned that this topic has been flogged to death in the last few weeks. But claims that the term has a single meaning, and that is the F-22 definition, are not tolerable. Anyone can make up a new definition for a word or phrase. It helps if they can also think up a plausible justification. But that does not make it the only correct definition, or even a correct definition.
I'm not debating anyone. There is nothing to debate. If people want to fool themselves into thinking there are other aircraft that perform like the F-22 and specifically with regard to supercruise, then fine. I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT AND I KNOW THEY ARE WRONG.

If you would like to avoid the word supercruise then lets rephrase. The F-22 flies as fast as conventional aircraft like the F-Teens, Su series, Migs and EuroCanardDeltas which all have very similar performance and fly much slower than an F-22 unless they are in Afterburner for very brief periods. Moreover, the F-22 because of its speed, stealth, sensors and networking has distinct advantages far beyond that of any other fighter and is in a completely different performance class...

...different and superior to a Typhoon, Rafale, Grippen, F-Teen, Su, Mig or anything else while all these aircraft are in the same performance class with slight differences based on specific design goals. There, I hope no one if offended because I'm pointing out their favorite plane does not offer the F-22's performance.

-DA
 

Dr Freud

New Member
Noone is saying any other plane can supercruise at M1.7, but supercruise isnt M1.7, its >M1 with weapons loadout. if you want M1.7 to have an exclusive right to a sufix, call it ultracruise or sumfing.
 
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Sintra

New Member
I'm not debating anyone. There is nothing to debate. If people want to fool themselves into thinking there are other aircraft that perform like the F-22 and specifically with regard to supercruise, then fine. I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT AND I KNOW THEY ARE WRONG.

If you would like to avoid the word supercruise then lets rephrase. The F-22 flies as fast as conventional aircraft like the F-Teens, Su series, Migs and EuroCanardDeltas which all have very similar performance and fly much slower than an F-22 unless they are in Afterburner for very brief periods. Moreover, the F-22 because of its speed, stealth, sensors and networking has distinct advantages far beyond that of any other fighter and is in a completely different performance class...

...different and superior to a Typhoon, Rafale, Grippen, F-Teen, Su, Mig or anything else while all these aircraft are in the same performance class with slight differences based on specific design goals. There, I hope no one if offended because I'm pointing out their favorite plane does not offer the F-22's performance.

-DA
Network?
The F-22?!!! Better rephrase that...
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I'm not debating anyone. There is nothing to debate. If people want to fool themselves into thinking there are other aircraft that perform like the F-22 and specifically with regard to supercruise, then fine. I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT AND I KNOW THEY ARE WRONG...

-DA
Nobody is saying that other aircraft have the same performance as the F-22. You are either failing to understand what is pretty clear to almost everyone else, or deliberately misrepresenting others posts. Neither reflects well on you.

The point at issue is whether a particular term is only applicable to the performance of the F-22 (and, of course, some aircraft no longer flying, such as Concorde), not whether the performance of aircraft A matches the performance of aircraft B.
 
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