Dutch cuts, Worse than UK?

SASWanabe

Member
Dutch government cutting 12,000 military jobs - Forbes.com

Defense Minister Hans Hillen said the job cuts - which were greater than the 10,000 the new Cabinet indicated in its governing accord - include selling 19 F-16s, 17 Cougar transport helicopters, four de-mining ships and scrapping all of the country's 60 tanks.
at the rate these guys are slashing they're not going to have any military at all. i have been hearing that there are even more cuts to come, and guesses at whats next?
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Dutch government cutting 12,000 military jobs - Forbes.com



at the rate these guys are slashing they're not going to have any military at all. i have been hearing that there are even more cuts to come, and guesses at whats next?
Economic realities I'm afraid, not just the UK and Holland but all of Europe will be making cuts.

Unfortunately the rising cost of man-power (particularly now most European armies are all volunteer) and rising cost of technology will force most nations to cut numbers and re-configure to light/medium forces with greater flexibility to deal with a wide variety of 'what if's'. The Russian threat no longer disctates military planning/thinking.

Comments like: "at the rate these guys are slashing they're not going to have any military at all" is somewhat sensationalist. If you look at Europe's combined military strength and capabilities (even after the proposed cuts) you are still looking at a continent with more serviceable (key factor when comparing numbers with the former soviet union) and cutting edge planes, tanks, AFV's, ships and ISTAR than any other continent bar the USA.

Whilst a fraction (land standing army) of what was available at the height of the cold war, Europe still remains the only continent which can plan, execute and sustain out of area military operations for extended periods. By 2020 the EU will have at its disposal 2 x Large Carriers (QE & CdG), numerous LHD/LHP's (Cavour, Juan Carlos, Mistral etc), even more numerous LPD's (Albion, Rotterdam, San Giorgio's etc.) and a sizable contingent of modern FFG's/DDG's, SSK's and SSN's. And with the arrival of A400, strategic lift for the first time (bar those EU nations with C17). These capabilties will be further enhanced by the introduction/upgrading of a modern UAV/UCAV fleet second only to that operated by the US.

During GWI Europe had huge standing armies facing East with thousands of tanks, AFV's etc. Of all the Europan nations only one could deploy an armoured division to the Gulf (UK), the rest could not. Not because they didn't have the manpower or equipment, but because of numerous caveats associated with conscript armies coupled with almost zero strategic reach. France for example could only deploy a single lightly armoured FFL Brigade which was placed on the flank due to lack of heavy armour. Today European armies may be a fraction of the size they used to be, but they can at the same time deploy a greater number of units overseas to places like A-Stan.

The Dutch decision to get rid of its heavy armour is a conscious and sensible one. They have decided the future is likely to be a series of A-Stan style engagements so they will invest dwindling resources on their SF & expeditionary capability.

Limited funds need to be focused. For example Germany has invested heavily in new armour, but is reluctant to engage in politically sensitve offensive operations (recent Libya example), whilst UK/France have jumped in head first. Maybe this is a sign of the future - leave Germany to focus on guarding the Eastern flank of Europe with its superb armoured forces whilst other nations reconfigure for rapid response by air and/or sea (UK/France & Holland). The Dutch ampib forces are already dovetailed with the UK, add the French and (even with cuts) you have a sizable maritime and airborne force able to deploy globally (at least 1 x combined brigade of Marines & 1 x combined Brigade of Paras on 24-7 ready reserve).
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
By 2020 the EU will have at its disposal 2 x Large Carriers (QE & CdG), numerous LHD/LHP's (Cavour, Juan Carlos, Mistral etc), even more numerous LPD's (Albion, Rotterdam, San Giorgio's etc.) and a sizable contingent of modern FFG's/DDG's, SSK's and SSN's.

During GWI Europe had huge standing armies facing East with thousands of tanks, AFV's etc. Of all the Europan nations only one could deploy an armoured division to the Gulf (UK), the rest could not. Not because they didn't have the manpower or equipment, but because of numerous caveats associated with conscript armies coupled with almost zero strategic reach. France for example could only deploy a single lightly armoured FFL Brigade which was placed on the flank due to lack of heavy armour. .
The 6e division légère blindéewas neither Legion Etrangere (most of it wasn't) nor a brigade. It was put out on the flank, along with the US 82nd & 101st airborne, because it could move fast.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
The 6e division légère blindéewas neither Legion Etrangere (most of it wasn't) nor a brigade. It was put out on the flank, along with the US 82nd & 101st airborne, because it could move fast.
Regardless of which formations were deployed they were deliberately placed on the flank because of a lack of heavy armour, they only had wheeled light tanks, which agreed could move much faster than the US/UK heavies. During the planning phase they were deemed incapable of taking on the Republican Guard or similar formations MBT's in a full-frontal confrontation (in theory anyway).
 

SASWanabe

Member
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  • #5
i just found a more detailed list of whats being cut from the dutch

The minister of Defence Hans Hillen made the upcomming budget cuts public today they will cut a total of 1 billion euro and will include:
- The navy will go from 10 to 6 minehunters.
- The navy will not commission 2 of the 4 Holland Class Patrol Vessels.
- The HNLMS Zuiderkruis will be decomissioned in 2011 instead of 2013.
- HLNSM Amsterdam will be in service up to 2014, and will be replaced bythe Joint Support Ship ''Karel Doorman''.
- The Army will take close down 2 Tank- batallions.
- The number of Artillery will be decreased, Pzh2000 + 120 mm mortars.
- The Engineers will be decreased
- The Army Air defence will be decreased and Medium range Anti Tank capacity on the Fenneks will be less.
- The army will decrease its units in the GER-NL Corps.
- The airforce will go from 87 to 68 F16's.
- All 17 Cougar Helicopters will be out of service.
- The 3rd ordered DC-10 will not come in to service.
- Two Air defence platoons and one patriot battery will be taken out of service.
- The Militairy police will cancel the new built patrol ship for the province of zeeland.
- The number of generals (119) will be decreased to 80.
- 1000 civil cars will be sold.
i wonder if the Kiwi's would be interested in the 2 Holland Class OPVs. Canterbury is dutch isnt she?
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Regardless of which formations were deployed they were deliberately placed on the flank because of a lack of heavy armour, they only had wheeled light tanks, which agreed could move much faster than the US/UK heavies.
The French in Desert Storm had AMX-30 tanks, not just wheeled AFVs. You still wouldn't be keen to have them make the assault with VII Corps instead of screening the flank though.

The number of generals (119) will be decreased to 80.
At least one sensible decision is being made then.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
i just found a more detailed list of whats being cut from the dutch



i wonder if the Kiwi's would be interested in the 2 Holland Class OPVs. Canterbury is dutch isnt she?
Do you have the source for this list.

I would think NZ has enough OPV's for now.
 

SASWanabe

Member
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i got it from Militaryphotos.net the guy who posted it over there didnt give a source tho so i dont know where he got it from
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Dutch have more generals than the Bundeswehr does, at less than one quarter the size? What are you using general ranks for, commanding battalions? ;)
 

Twickiwi

New Member
i just found a more detailed list of whats being cut from the dutch



i wonder if the Kiwi's would be interested in the 2 Holland Class OPVs. Canterbury is dutch isnt she?
I imagine if the pollies were smart the Holland class with it's built-for-but-not-with sensor suite and sized around the same as the current ANZACs would be perfect. There is serious risk of mission failure in the Southern Ocean with just 2 OPV.

18 2nd hand F-16s might come in handy if they were being just given away...
 

riksavage

Banned Member
I imagine if the pollies were smart the Holland class with it's built-for-but-not-with sensor suite and sized around the same as the current ANZACs would be perfect. There is serious risk of mission failure in the Southern Ocean with just 2 OPV.

18 2nd hand F-16s might come in handy if they were being just given away...
An Apache / Bushmaster combo will take over the tasks currently provided by the 60 Dutch Leopards up for the chop. Clearly doctrine will need to be rewritten as tank killing will now be the preserve of rotary and anti-tank missiles deployed from the Bushmasters.

I wonder whether the Canadians would be interested in buying more Leopards? I understand they will be ditching the LAV's in favour of a 4X4 Ridgeback/R31 type vehicle.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A combination of Apaches and Bushmasters cannot take over the role of tanks. No matter how much one tries to adapt the doctrine it remains a half assed solution to a lost capability.

But as said before in this thread, the Dutch are not alone with these dramatic cuts.
I don't even want to think about the Bundeswehr cuts which will be finalized this summer...:crazy
 

riksavage

Banned Member
A combination of Apaches and Bushmasters cannot take over the role of tanks. No matter how much one tries to adapt the doctrine it remains a half assed solution to a lost capability.

But as said before in this thread, the Dutch are not alone with these dramatic cuts.
I don't even want to think about the Bundeswehr cuts which will be finalized this summer...:crazy
True, nothing holds ground or provides direct fire support like a tank.

Let's be honest Germany's improving relationship with, and economic ties to Russia will definitely impact decision making. I can't see Germany retaining the same number of armoured units for one. Will we see reduced numbers of Puma's and Boxers ordered and Leopards placed in storage? Will units be reconfigured/ re-rolled for rapid response/ humanitarian roles? More SF battalions raised at the expense of armoured formations to tackle extremism? Plus Peter will rob Paul if the government decides to invest in more unmanned platforms.

From reading the likes of Spiegel on-line I can never quite get my head around Germany's long term defence aspirations/policy. It always appears too politically charged to allow for honest debate.
 
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