Current Russian army anti tank methodology

[Feanor]

I appreciate what you are saying, but the above was true in 2008 also, wasn't it? Yet the 2008 war saw t-55s, t-62s in use and the VDV unit allowing a unit to pass as it couldn't rely on it's anti armour capabilities. I would also be weary of counting RPG-7s as anti armour components.

Are you of the view that it is an important area that is covered, albeit with less than ideal means, or what do you mean?

I'm of the view that the tactics and methodology to exist in principle and a large number of anti-tank assets exist in practice. The '08 war revealed many glaring problems that are in the process of being addressed. One of them is new ATGMs, another is better ATGM modules on armored vehicles. Note that while existing BMP-2 and BMD-2 can carry a single ATGM tube on a pintle mount, the new Bumerang-BM module carries 4 Kornet ATGMs in side-turret mounts. And while on BMP and BMD series the ATGM may or may not be installed, it looks like the Bumerang-BM module will come with the ATGMs standard. New warheads for the RPG-7 are also being purchased, albeit in small quantities for now.

On the details. T-55s were not used by the Russian military during the 08 war. They were used by Abkhaz militias. T-62s were used, some of the last ones left in service with the 42nd Motor-Rifles. Those tanks are gone now. The last T-55s in service were in the Far East on the Kuril Island and Sakhalin. They've also been replaced.

Anyways. Yes, the area is indeed being covered. And yes with less then ideal means. This will change slowly but surely, if the Russian defense budget remains high (and so far it's set to remain so).

 

[Ranger25]

I'm of the view that the tactics and methodology to exist in principle and a large number of anti-tank assets exist in practice. The '08 war revealed many glaring problems that are in the process of being addressed. One of them is new ATGMs, another is better ATGM modules on armored vehicles. Note that while existing BMP-2 and BMD-2 can carry a single ATGM tube on a pintle mount, the new Bumerang-BM module carries 4 Kornet ATGMs in side-turret mounts. And while on BMP and BMD series the ATGM may or may not be installed, it looks like the Bumerang-BM module will come with the ATGMs standard. New warheads for the RPG-7 are also being purchased, albeit in small quantities for now.

On the details. T-55s were not used by the Russian military during the 08 war. They were used by Abkhaz militias. T-62s were used, some of the last ones left in service with the 42nd Motor-Rifles. Those tanks are gone now. The last T-55s in service were in the Far East on the Kuril Island and Sakhalin. They've also been replaced.

Anyways. Yes, the area is indeed being covered. And yes with less then ideal means. This will change slowly but surely, if the Russian defense budget remains high (and so far it's set to remain so).

Agreed with Feanor's comments. And this is as NATO is continuing to downsize and in many cases move to lighter skinned wheeled vehicles. The heaviest permanent US force only has Stykers

 

[wittmanace]

I'm of the view that the tactics and methodology to exist in principle and a large number of anti-tank assets exist in practice. The '08 war revealed many glaring problems that are in the process of being addressed. One of them is new ATGMs, another is better ATGM modules on armored vehicles. Note that while existing BMP-2 and BMD-2 can carry a single ATGM tube on a pintle mount, the new Bumerang-BM module carries 4 Kornet ATGMs in side-turret mounts. And while on BMP and BMD series the ATGM may or may not be installed, it looks like the Bumerang-BM module will come with the ATGMs standard. New warheads for the RPG-7 are also being purchased, albeit in small quantities for now.

On the details. T-55s were not used by the Russian military during the 08 war. They were used by Abkhaz militias. T-62s were used, some of the last ones left in service with the 42nd Motor-Rifles. Those tanks are gone now. The last T-55s in service were in the Far East on the Kuril Island and Sakhalin. They've also been replaced.

Anyways. Yes, the area is indeed being covered. And yes with less then ideal means. This will change slowly but surely, if the Russian defense budget remains high (and so far it's set to remain so).

Thanks for the detailed answer, very interesting. By new rounds for the RPG-7, are you referring to pg-7vr and the TBG round, or newer rounds than that?

 

[wittmanace]

Agreed with Feanor's comments. And this is as NATO is continuing to downsize and in many cases move to lighter skinned wheeled vehicles. The heaviest permanent US force only has Stykers

True, but NATO members are not the likeliest of foes for Russia's wars in the near to medium future? I would have assumed that in the near to medium future, in terms of probabilities, the likeliest would be non-NATO states that are within the Former Warsaw Pact sphere.

 

[Feanor]

True, but NATO members are not the likeliest of foes for Russia's wars in the near to medium future? I would have assumed that in the near to medium future, in terms of probabilities, the likeliest would be non-NATO states that are within the Former Warsaw Pact sphere.

Almost all of the former WarPac is now in NATO. You probably mean FSU states. And to be honest, this is where Russias anti-tank capabilities are more then adequate. We can argue about grainy videos of insurgents blowing up export-variant Abrams with Kornet-E missiles all we want, but the likeliest targets for Russian ATGMs are Soviet-era tanks. And they're quite vulnerable.

Thanks for the detailed answer, very interesting. By new rounds for the RPG-7, are you referring to pg-7vr and the TBG round, or newer rounds than that?

Unfortunately specifics are lacking. There were vague statements made about ongoing procurement of "more modern" rounds for the RPG-7 that had begun only recently. What this means in practice remains to be seen. On the one hand it's Russia, so I'm inclined to be sceptical. On the other hand they've been buying a lot of interesting toys lately, and a significant effort has begun to update the munitions industry including new 30mm rounds, and work on a programmable 57mm round.

 

[wittmanace]

Almost all of the former WarPac is now in NATO. You probably mean FSU states. And to be honest, this is where Russias anti-tank capabilities are more then adequate. We can argue about grainy videos of insurgents blowing up export-variant Abrams with Kornet-E missiles all we want, but the likeliest targets for Russian ATGMs are Soviet-era tanks. And they're quite vulnerable.



Unfortunately specifics are lacking. There were vague statements made about ongoing procurement of "more modern" rounds for the RPG-7 that had begun only recently. What this means in practice remains to be seen. On the one hand it's Russia, so I'm inclined to be sceptical. On the other hand they've been buying a lot of interesting toys lately, and a significant effort has begun to update the munitions industry including new 30mm rounds, and work on a programmable 57mm round.

To be honest I meant more a question of equipment and geography. So equipment of Soviet design origin/family/influence, and geography-wise between Germany and Russia. I pointed to the sphere issue, as the relevant point is their equipment in general terms, which you point to, as well as the important geography issue. It is quite a narrow range in both respects, as you also touched on.

And like you, I'm not keen on veering to kornet in the Middle East versus this or that platform. My interest is more one of doctrine and equipment, and given the big investment and important role of anti armour, it seems this is the time it would be changing. I'm quite interested to see the end result, assuming the reforms and investment are seen through. Funnily enough, I was thinking about this topic when looking into lack of coherent armoured doctrine post-Normandy.

Is krasnopol and/or kitolov deployment of relevance to this? Given the older arty use vs armour, the rounds seem like they could be of use in the anti armour role today, in the context we are discussing ? I don't know the cost of the units, so cost may be the issue there?

 

[Ranger25]

To be honest I meant more a question of equipment and geography. So equipment of Soviet design origin/family/influence, and geography-wise between Germany and Russia. I pointed to the sphere issue, as the relevant point is their equipment in general terms, which you point to, as well as the important geography issue. It is quite a narrow range in both respects, as you also touched on.

And like you, I'm not keen on veering to kornet in the Middle East versus this or that platform. My interest is more one of doctrine and equipment, and given the big investment and important role of anti armour, it seems this is the time it would be changing. I'm quite interested to see the end result, assuming the reforms and investment are seen through. Funnily enough, I was thinking about this topic when looking into lack of coherent armoured doctrine post-Normandy.

Is krasnopol and/or kitolov deployment of relevance to this? Given the older arty use vs armour, the rounds seem like they could be of use in the anti armour role today, in the context we are discussing ? I don't know the cost of the units, so cost may be the issue there?

I think it would be relevant

We've used the M982 Excalibur for similar precision strike needs to great success CEP approx 4 feet.

 

[Feanor]

Is krasnopol and/or kitolov deployment of relevance to this? Given the older arty use vs armour, the rounds seem like they could be of use in the anti armour role today, in the context we are discussing ? I don't know the cost of the units, so cost may be the issue there?

Yes. It is relevant, and there have been persistent reports of Russian guided arty shells from Ukraine. Though I have yet to get a concrete source, and to be honest we may never get one.

Honestly at this point the smartest thing might be to take the long-range variant of the Kornet and adapt it for helo use, thus producing a multi-platform ATGM. They can ditch the abortive Vikhr, and even the impressive Ataka, and focus on mass procurement of a single modern ATGM.