Cruiser with 4 helicopters

[Git_Kraken]

In other navies the usual ratio is six hours of downtime per flight hour for embarked naval helicopters (typically: Lynx), i.e. six helos being required to keep one on station in the air 24/7.

That ratio isn't evenly distributed, however. You often do periods of heavy use with low maintenance hours in between sorties. But then you have to take longer times off to do the "X hours of flight time" maintenance. It all averages out to a number between 4-8 hours depending on the aircraft and its age.

 

[spoz]

In Melbourne we normally ran 24 hour Sea King ops with four birds; usually three in the rotation with one in light maintenance/stand by for unseviceabiities. You have to consider the sortie length in working such things out. Didn’t last for ever, but certainly for some days.

The thing about escorts is they can be detached, and often are; and if they are their helo goes too. Better off with a through deck and the necessary number of helos in your one bottom.

 

[ngatimozart]

I've seen that figure too. I think that basically translates to two sorties a day too. But with no allowance for sorties to react to contacts. The article I read suggested a task group could expect 10 a day or so requiring the launch of an alert helicopter. Not that they'd be enemy subs necessarily, but contacts that needed to be treated seriously.

Do you have a source or a citation for that article? I ask for two reasons:
1) It sounds like an interesting and informative article, and
2) We have a rule here that sources have to be linked. That protects both you and the forum from accusations of plagiarism.

 

[Anthony_B_78]

In Melbourne we normally ran 24 hour Sea King ops with four birds; usually three in the rotation with one in light maintenance/stand by for unseviceabiities. You have to consider the sortie length in working such things out. Didn’t last for ever, but certainly for some days.

The thing about escorts is they can be detached, and often are; and if they are their helo goes too. Better off with a through deck and the necessary number of helos in your one bottom.

So what would that look like? Assuming, like, two-hour sorties on average? Each aircraft might do three rotations every 24 hours, with the other rotation (six hours) spent in maintenance? So six flight hours out of 24?

The other side of all of this though is you need more air crew than aircraft, which is expensive.

 

[Anthony_B_78]

Do you have a source or a citation for that article? I ask for two reasons:
1) It sounds like an interesting and informative article, and
2) We have a rule here that sources have to be linked. That protects both you and the forum from accusations of plagiarism.

Edit: Found it. https://www.cna.org/CNA_files/PDF/D0000234.A1.pdf

So a little different than what I remembered. Under "Battlegroup requirements" on page 8, it says that a complement of 14 helicopters across the battlegroup - 6 on the carrier, 8 on escorts - allows you to keep 2 up in the air at all times and provision for an additional 10 reactive sorties every 24 hours. With support from an on-station P-3, this was considered sufficient. I must have extrapolated from this figure that with 9 aircraft flying 2 sorties a day each you could have 1 aircraft up at all times and still have those 10 reactive sorties.

Interesting to read from people in the know that you could do it with much fewer aircraft.

Edit to add: This article is interesting too.

 

[John Fedup]

As per other posters, this is an interesting discussion and I tend to agree, the more helicopters for ASW, all the better. Many now carry extensive state-of-the-art electronic kit which likely means more downtime. For T-26 operators, it will be interesting to see if a combination of UAVs and one ASW helicopter is as effective as two helicopters.

 

[spoz]

So what would that look like? Assuming, like, two-hour sorties on average? Each aircraft might do three rotations every 24 hours, with the other rotation (six hours) spent in maintenance? So six flight hours out of 24?

The other side of all of this though is you need more air crew than aircraft, which is expensive.

Assail would remember this better than I do, but from that now 40 year old memory SK50 sorties were four hours in duration. They were usually in the mid field with S2G Trackers on six hour sorties in the deep field. But as I say, that is a memory from long ago and may well be wrong!

 

[swerve]

DAMEN presents CROSSOVER ultimate mission modular naval concept at DIMDEX 2014

Fully developed to execute current tasks and cater for future capabilities, the Damen CROSSOVER is the ultimate mission modular naval concept. Pivotal to this innovative solution is the so-called X-Deck - a single, flexible deck to handle, store, operate and deploy mission equipment, fast RHIBs...

www.navyrecognition.com

This is the closet thing that a update present day design try to sell the idea of Hybrid Warship with large flight deck design. Damen after doing their research come with Frigate LPD Hybrid, which they seems think there's market demand for that. Still even then up until now, there's no order for that design. Some Navies shown attraction to the design, but Damen as far as I know still not building it yet.

So if an Hybrid Frigate LPD design (which's more tune) to the present Navy operational need (base on Market resarch done by one of leading Naval Yard), but still no takers. How hybrid cruisers/destroyers-helicopter carriers can fly in present market ? The amount of cost building one will not be much different than building through deck helicopter carriers. Building a hybrid that can only take 4 helicopter at most, simply not worth the cost.

Qatar has ordered a hybrid LPD/AAW ship from Fincantieri, based on the San Giorgio class LPD. DIMDEX 2018: Qatari Navy Showcasing its Future Air Defense LPD

 

[hauritz]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Type 26 could manage up to four helicopters. In my model I managed to pack three seahawks into the mission bay and had one in the hanger.

 

[Larso66]

Thanks guys for those links about Crossover and the Frigate discussions.

Again, back to the Australian coastline. Yes, a battle group, especially one based around one of the 'carriers', would provide sufficient choppers for extensive ongoing patrolling, but that only covers a small part of the ocean. Spreading the ships out would provide greater surveillance and an additional chopper or two increases that significantly. I'm still getting my head around the capabilities of drones but that promises to increase coverage even more and be heaps cheaper.
I'm not an expert on the history but I truly can't remember a case, of an Australian chopper at least, being lost? This says a lot about effective maintenance and safety procedures. Even so, in wartime, with increased temp/workloads casualties would happen. A second/third chopper allows the ship to continue to be effective.

 

[spoz]

Regrettably there have been a number. We lost a Sea King on Nias Island doing tsunami relief work in 2005 with 9 dead; and lost aircraft in 1975, 76, 77, 79, 86 and 95; all with no fatalities thank the Lord. We lost Wessex in 1969, 74, 78 and 87; and in 1983 we lost one in Bass Strait while on oil rig patrol duties with two fatalities. We lost a couple of UH-1s in Australia (without fatal casualties I think although I can't exactly remember) and of course lost aircrew flying them in Vietnam. Going back into the 50s and early 60s we lost half a dozen Sycamores in what was, admittedly, the early days of rotary wing aviation. We also lost a couple of Bell 206s and a Westland Scout, all in the late 60s early 70s. So the record is not brilliant over time; but also not that different to other Navies' experience in that period.

The good thing is that in 30+ years of service we lost no S-70B-2 Seahawks, despite a couple of near run things, and (touch wood) haven't lost anything since Nias Island.

Both the Army and the Air Force (when they operated them) have also lost helos over the years - although I can recall a number such as the tragic 5 Aviation accident in 96 and the Blackhawk lost off Kanimbla in 2006 I'm no expert on those.

 

[Larso66]

Qatar has orderedt a hybrid LPD/AAW ship from Fincantieri, based on the San Giorgio class LPD. DIMDEX 2018: Qatari Navy Showcasing its Future Air Defense LPD

That's like a mini carrier - it looks strange with space for just two choppers (though more can be stored in the hanger). It is kinda what I've been talking about and I guess its choppers are more dangerous to subs than its other weapons systems.

 

[Inverno]

It seems to me that the main problem is with the core concept. Cruisers operate as part of a multi-vessel taskforce. And it makes less sense to tack extra helos on a cruiser then to have a helo-carrier, or simply multiple other vessels bringing the capability. Take the 1164 Moskva class that was mentioned. It carries a single helo, but a taskforce could conceivably include (if we're talking Soviet era, not modern) a pair of 1155s and a pair of 956s. That's a total of 7 helos.

Minor correction: very likely the Project 1123 Kondor was the mentioned Moskva, carrying a dozen helicopters.

Project 1123 Kondor anti-submarine cruiser

 

[Git_Kraken]

As per other posters, this is an interesting discussion and I tend to agree, the more helicopters for ASW, all the better. Many now carry extensive state-of-the-art electronic kit which likely means more downtime. For T-26 operators, it will be interesting to see if a combination of UAVs and one ASW helicopter is as effective as two helicopters.

Depends on a lot of things. The Fire Scout MQ-8C has an endurance of 12hrs. That's quite a long time in the air doing whatever it's doing. If the job is specific or simple enough then yeah, it might be better. A Crowsnest style UAV that does AEW might be better than a Crowsnest Merlin because of that endurance (I don't know if the Merlin crew do the tracking/processing onboard or just Links out the targets). If they can do something that allows payloads to be swapped out it might make a flexible addition.

There is also the aspect that on some ships the UAV is in addition to the helicopter where you might have not had a second helicopter at all. A smallish UAV can fit into a lot of spaces where a full helicopter cannot.

 

[Redlands18]

Qatar has orderedt a hybrid LPD/AAW ship from Fincantieri, based on the San Giorgio class LPD. DIMDEX 2018: Qatari Navy Showcasing its Future Air Defense LPD

The rear Helicopter landing spot seems to be awfully close to the ASTER 30 VLS(Starboard Y position) on those Ships.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Type 26 could manage up to four helicopters. In my model I managed to pack three seahawks into the mission bay and had one in the hanger.

While dimensionally they might fit, getting them in and out may be a problem, 3 and UAV would probably be a more realistic upper limit. But it does show the size of the mission bay.

I can see UAV's making a really big contribution here. They are going to be able to say on station and have much longer endurance. Crew can be rotated while the asset is still on mission. While manned assets will still have role, I am not sure looking even in to the immediate future if there will be focusing on 24/7 manned capability.

 

[Feanor]

Minor correction: very likely the Project 1123 Kondor was the mentioned Moskva, carrying a dozen helicopters.

Project 1123 Kondor anti-submarine cruiser

My apologies I misunderstood the post as proposing a version of the Atlant cruiser with more helo space.

 

[Git_Kraken]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Type 26 could manage up to four helicopters. In my model I managed to pack three seahawks into the mission bay and had one in the hanger.

View attachment 48241

First amazing model, where can I get a copy?

Second: Where are the ship's boats now? How do you get them in there? Is it feasible to operate four helo's off of a flight deck designed to launch or recover one aircraft at a time? Does the ship have enough berths for the extra ground/flight crew,storage for spares, enough space to maintain them?

Ferry four to somewhere else in a pinch? Sure, if you sacrifice ship's boats to do it (extremely unlikely and against SOLAS rules in peacetime). But "manage"? I would be extremely surprised if the Type 26 could "manage" four helicopters. Two could be done, but even that would require some careful management of aircraft comings and goings to do it properly as to get to the flex deck you would have to tow a helo through the hangar first.

 

[spoz]

The T26 and its derivatives have a sea boat in a dedicated boat bay on the port side of the hangar, as well as the potential to stow boats in the mission bay. And, warships do not necessatprily comply with SOLAS requirements anyway, although to be fair they normally try.

 

[Git_Kraken]

The T26 and its derivatives have a sea boat in a dedicated boat bay on the port side of the hangar, as well as the potential to stow boats in the mission bay. And, warships do not necessarily comply with SOLAS requirements anyway, although to be fair they normally try.

Yes, nations can use the warship clause in SOLAS to ignore the requirements. However, it's a bit of a fantasy to think a CO would sail without a full complement of ships' boats. The dedicated boat bay is used for a rescue boat, not the 9-12m RHIB. RHIB's are just too useful.

It doesn't negate the fact that cramming 3 helicopters into the mission bay is never going to happen for operational use. The logistics of trying to operate them precludes that.