Compare capabilities and data - LCA & JF-17

Which do u think is better, LCA(india) vs FC-1(pak)


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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The only genuine "stealth" aircraft (publicly known of that is...) In service today are the F-117 and B-2 bomber. I don't know how many of you really understand how stealth technology works. It doesn't make an aircraft invisible to radar. It reduces the radar cross section of the aircraft to the point where the aircraft detection ranges are (hopefully) shorter than the range of the weapons carried by the stealth aircraft. It does this in a number of ways. Radar put simply, as I understand it, works by "bouncing" radio waves off an object and measuring the returned radio waves. With this information an operator can work out the location of said object, it's speed, direction of travel, shape etc. Various radars do this to varying degrees. "Stealth" technology aims to reduce the radar cross section (RCS) of the aircraft, missile etc, essentially with stealth technology the amount of radio waves returned to the radar operator is reduced, thus ensuring the radar system is less effective. This is acheived by designing an aircraft (or whatever) in such away that the radio waves are either deflected away from the aircraft and not back to the radar system (f-117) or are absorbed by the aircraft instead of being reflected back to the radar (B-2, F-22, JSF etc). Now modern aircraft (other than those already mentioned) are designed where possible to reduce the RCS of the aircraft. Such aircraft that I'm aware of that do this include F/A 18 E/F, Rafale, Typhoon and more than likely the LCA and JF-17 and newer Russian aircraft. None of these aircraft will ever be true "stealth" aircraft however. This is because of the expense of designing a true "stealth" aircraft and also because the design of a stealth aircraft generally hampers the performance of an aircraft to such a degree that the aircraft becomes useless. Unless you are prepared to spend $40 billion plus on aircraft design (as the US has done with the F-22) you are simply not going to achieve a "true stealth" aircraft with sufficient performance to match or exceed modern combat aircraft and don't try and convince me that the "brilliance" of your designers will allow you to achieve something like this when no other nation on earth can do so, with the exception of the US and it can only do so with massive concerted effort and funding, something no other nation can match. You would simply display your ignorance, should you try to argue this. Cheers.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
Indianguy said:
Thats what i am saying that LCA is not a stealth Fc , it has low RCS which makes it more difficult to detect.

Regarding Stealth ,

See this LATEST US ?STEALTH¦ TECHNOLOGY CAN BE DESTROYED BY MOBILE PHONE
http://english.pravda.ru/world/2001/06/25/8622.html
how would u no LCA has low RCS? at this stage the LCA is juz a little more than talk on blank paper, at prototype stage.
all LCA vs other fighter comparison is useless, how can u compare when it's still in prototype testing stage? when LCA project comes into service (about 2008), then u can compare it wif wutever u want to compare it wif. until then, plz stop talking about how LCA is better or worse than the others.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
This is not new, a similar posting board talked about this a while back. I accept that this technology may "detect" when an aircraft has flown through the area. It doesn't provide any targeting data though and as such "destroying" a stealth aircraft still poses the same problem as today. There are other means of detecting Stealth aircraft as I pointed out. Radars of sufficient power (such as Australia's Jindalee "over the horizon" Radar) have also reportedly detected stealth aircraft. No however seems to have worked out a way of actually targetting such an aircraft. The F-117 that went down over Bosnia, remains a mystery. No-one (possibly not even the USAF) knows for certain whether it was shot down or simply crashed. It has been announced at various times that it was tracked and shot down by an SA-6, or possibly it was hit by AAA fire, observers on the ground reported seeing bullet holes in the fuselage of the wreck. It has also been reported that this aircraft was shot down by a Yugoslav Air Force MIG-29, either by AAM or with cannon fire. Given the rather large discrepancies in these reports and the fact that it hasn't happened since, I think it's a bit early to summarily pronounce the end of "Stealth Technology"... Plus he F-117 and B-2 are rather slow (subsonic) aircraft. The Supercruising "stealth" F-22 will be a completely different "kettle of fish". I'd hate to be the MIG-29 pilot trying to shoot down the stealthy aircraft flying at Mach 1.5 plus, particularly given the passive radar and avionics of this aircraft, the MIG-29 pilot would be doing well if he even knew the F-22 was there...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
IF stealth was dead, then nations would hardly be falling over themselves trying to make standoff and cruise weapons as stealthy as possible.

Stealth doesn't mean invisible - it means lower observability. there's a vast difference between the 2
 

Indianguy

New Member
Pathfinder-X said:
Indianguy said:
Thats what i am saying that LCA is not a stealth Fc , it has low RCS which makes it more difficult to detect.

Regarding Stealth ,

See this LATEST US ?STEALTH¦ TECHNOLOGY CAN BE DESTROYED BY MOBILE PHONE
http://english.pravda.ru/world/2001/06/25/8622.html
how would u no LCA has low RCS? at this stage the LCA is juz a little more than talk on blank paper, at prototype stage.
all LCA vs other fighter comparison is useless, how can u compare when it's still in prototype testing stage? when LCA project comes into service (about 2008), then u can compare it wif wutever u want to compare it wif. until then, plz stop talking about how LCA is better or worse than the others.
My dear . Their are Three Proto Type standing and flying and various other test are conducting on them , This technical data what LCA is achived till now and what is going to be in comming Year,

I did compaire what are their weight and their Capacity which is not going to be change , Design is the thing which is made and their will not modification after that. I don;t think when LCA is going to production like it Wing become larger of their Height will increase etc. This will remain same .

Comparision is on technological level and everythign is going according to plan.

About low RCS , well Test can be condecuted on Prototypes also, One wise say Small things means low visibility combine with other things make it Less visible.

I think you heard the thing called computer Simulations ? Well one can find out things on that also ;)

Buddy cheer up .........

LCA is now in flying stage and future version will be armed with KAVARI ENGINES, and their may be chnage in RADER and EWS etc .. their will no change in basic design . Payload etc
 

mysterious

New Member
Computer simulations are just simulations. You wouldn't know the reality until it actually faces combat. And am I dozing off or did you just say "armed" Kavari engines? Aren't aircrafts suppose to be 'fitted' with engines?
 

adsH

New Member
mysterious said:
Computer simulations are just simulations. You wouldn't know the reality until it actually faces combat. And am I dozing off or did you just say "armed" Kavari engines? Aren't aircrafts suppose to be 'fitted' with engines?
while your doseing off i'm feeding my self with 20 cans full of Pepsi (Drinking the Liquid inside) lol Typos!! mate lets leave that out lol !!!


This topic has reached its max all we do is go onn and onn and onn about the same thing!!!!
 

Indianguy

New Member
Well i mean Instead of GE404 with gives 18K thrust , it will armed with KAvari which gives 20K thrust. Which makes TWR 1.4
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
Indianguy said:
Pathfinder-X said:
Indianguy said:
Thats what i am saying that LCA is not a stealth Fc , it has low RCS which makes it more difficult to detect.

Regarding Stealth ,

See this LATEST US ?STEALTH¦ TECHNOLOGY CAN BE DESTROYED BY MOBILE PHONE
http://english.pravda.ru/world/2001/06/25/8622.html
how would u no LCA has low RCS? at this stage the LCA is juz a little more than talk on blank paper, at prototype stage.
all LCA vs other fighter comparison is useless, how can u compare when it's still in prototype testing stage? when LCA project comes into service (about 2008), then u can compare it wif wutever u want to compare it wif. until then, plz stop talking about how LCA is better or worse than the others.
My dear . Their are Three Proto Type standing and flying and various other test are conducting on them , This technical data what LCA is achived till now and what is going to be in comming Year,

I did compaire what are their weight and their Capacity which is not going to be change , Design is the thing which is made and their will not modification after that. I don;t think when LCA is going to production like it Wing become larger of their Height will increase etc. This will remain same .

Comparision is on technological level and everythign is going according to plan.

About low RCS , well Test can be condecuted on Prototypes also, One wise say Small things means low visibility combine with other things make it Less visible.

I think you heard the thing called computer Simulations ? Well one can find out things on that also ;)

Buddy cheer up .........

LCA is now in flying stage and future version will be armed with KAVARI ENGINES, and their may be chnage in RADER and EWS etc .. their will no change in basic design . Payload etc
there is something wrong in ur statement, u r saying the data come from the test of LCA prototypes, and as far as im concerned, datas of test r only available to high ranking officers or aircraft technicians. so dat leaves us two possibilities 1. u r a technician of LCA or has some "friend" who is or 2. u r making dis stuff up
no offence but i doubt where u got such info
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Smaller size does confer an aspect of "stealth" on an aircraft, but there is nothing I've seen in the photographs and video to show that any particular attempts at lowering the RCS of the aircraft have been undertaken. Granted I'm not an aeronautics engineer. But apart from the use of composites there are no obvious attempts at "stealthing" the aircraft. The design and shape of the aircraft are in fact very normal for a small light weight fighter.

Here's an article about it:
Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)

The Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is the world's smallest, light weight, multi-role combat aircraft designed to meet the requirements of Indian Air Force as its frontline multi-mission single-seat tactical aircraft to replace the MiG-21 series of aircraft. The delta wing configuration , with no tailplanes or foreplanes, features a single vertical fin. The LCA is constructed of aluminium-lithium alloys, carbon-fibre composites, and titanium. LCA integrates modern design concepts and the state-of-art technologies such as relaxed static stability, flyby-wire Flight Control System, Advanced Digital Cockpit, Multi-Mode Radar, Integrated Digital Avionics System, Advanced Composite Material Structures and a Flat Rated Engine.

The LCA design has been configured to match the demands of modern combat scenario such as speed, acceleration, maneuverability and agility. Short takeoff and landing, excellent flight performance, safety, reliability and maintainability, are salient features of LCA design. The LCA integrates modern design concepts like static instability, digital fly-by-wire flight control system, integrated avionics, glass cockpit, primary composite structure, multi-mode radar, microprocessor based utility and brake management systems.
The avionics system enhances the role of Light Combat Aircraft as an effective weapon platform. The glass cockpit and hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls reduce pilot workload. Accurate navigation and weapon aiming information on the head up display helps the pilot achieve his mission effectively. The multifunction displays provide information on engine, hydraulics, electrical, flight control and environmental control system on a need-to-know basis along with basic flight and tactical information. Dual redundant display processors (DP) generate computer-generated imagery on these displays. The pilot interacts with the complex avionics systems through a simple multifunction keyboard, and function and sensor selection panels. A state-of-the-art multi-mode radar (MMR), laser designator pod (LDP), forward looking infra-red (FLIR) and other opto-electronic sensors provide accurate target information to enhance kill probabilities. A ring laser gyro (RLG)-based inertial navigation system (INS), provides accurate navigation guidance to the pilot. An advanced electronic warfare (EW) suite enhances the aircraft survivability during deep penetration and combat. Secure and jam-resistant communication systems, such as IFF, VHF/UHF and air-to-air/air-to-ground data link are provided as a part of the avionics suite. All these systems are integrated on three 1553B buses by a centralised 32-bit mission computer (MC) with high throughput which performs weapon computations and flight management, and reconfiguration/redundancy management. Reversionary mission functions are provided by a control and coding unit (CCU). Most of these subsystems have been developed indigenously.

The digital FBW system of the LCA is built around a quadruplex redundant architecture to give it a fail op-fail op-fail safe capability. It employs a powerful digital flight control computer (DFCC) comprising four computing channels, each powered by an independent power supply and all housed in a single line replaceable unit (LRU). The system is designed to meet a probability of loss of control of better than 1x10-7 per flight hour. The DFCC channels are built around 32-bit microprocessors and use a safe subset of Ada language for the implementation of software. The DFCC receives signals from quad rate, acceleration sensors, pilot control stick, rudder pedal, triplex air data system, dual air flow angle sensors, etc. The DFCC channels excite and control the elevon, rudder and leading edge slat hydraulic actuators. The computer interfaces with pilot display elements like multifunction displays through MIL-STD-1553B avionics bus and RS 422 serial link. The digital FBW system of the LCA is built around a quadruplex redundant architecture to give it a fail op-fail op-fail safe capability. It employs a powerful digital flight control computer (DFCC) comprising four computing channels, each powered by an independent power supply and all housed in a single line replaceable unit (LRU). The system is designed to meet a probability of loss of control of better than 1x107 per flight hour. The DFCC channels are built around 32-bit microprocessors and use a safe subset of Ada language for the implementation of software. The DFCC receives signals from quad rate, acceleration sensors, pilot control stick, rudder pedal, triplex air data system, dual air flow angle sensors, etc. The DFCC channels excite and control the elevon, rudder and leading edge slat hydraulic actuators. The computer interfaces with pilot display elements like multifunction displays through MIL-STD-1553B avionics bus and RS 422 serial link.

Multi-mode radar (MMR), the primary mission sensor of the LCA in its air defence role, will be a key determinant of the operational effectiveness of the fighter. This is an X-band, pulse Doppler radar with air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea modes. Its track-while-scan capability caters to radar functions under multiple target environment. The antenna is a light weight (<5 kg), low profile slotted waveguide array with a multilayer feed network for broad band operation. The salient technical features are: two plane monopulse signals, low side lobe levels and integrated IFF, and GUARD and BITE channels. The heart of MMR is the signal processor, which is built around VLSI-ASICs and i960 processors to meet the functional needs of MMR in different modes of its operation. Its role is to process the radar receiver output, detect and locate targets, create ground map, and provide contour map when selected. Post-detection processor resolves range and Doppler ambiguities and forms plots for subsequent data processor. The special feature of signal processor is its real-time configurability to adapt to requirements depending on selected mode of operation.


Seven weapon stations provided on LCA offer flexibility in the choice of weapons LCA can carry in various mission roles. Provision of drop tanks and inflight refueling probe ensure extended range and flight endurance of demanding missions. Provisions for the growth of hardware and software in the avionics and flight control system, available in LCA, ensure to maintain its effectiveness and advantages as a frontline fighter throughout its service life. For maintenance the aircraft has more than five hundred Line Replaceable Units (LRSs), each tested for performance and capability to meet the severe operational conditions to be encountered.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the Principal Partner in the design and fabrication of LCA and its integration leading to flight testing. The LCA has been designed and developed by a consortium of five aircraft research, design, production and product support organizations pooled by the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), under Department of Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). Various international aircraft and system manufacturers are also participating in the program with supply of specific equipment, design consultancy and support. For example, GE Aircraft Engines provides the propulsion.

The first prototype of LCA rolled out on 17 November 1995. Two aircraft technology demonstrators are powered by single GE F404/F2J3 augmented turbofan engines. Regular flights with the state-of-the-art "Kaveri" engine, being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in Bangalore, are planned by 2002, although by mid-1999 the Kaveri engine had yet to achieve the required thrust-to-weight ratio.

The LCA is India's second attempt at an indigenous jet fighter design, following the somewhat unsatisfactory HF-24 Marut Ground Attack Fighter built in limited numbers by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in the 1950s. Conceived in 1983, the LCA will serve as the Indian air force's frontline tactical plane through the year 2020. The LCA will go into service in the 2003-2005 timeframe.
Following India's nuclear weapons tests in early 1998, the United States placed an embargo on the sale of General Electric 404 jet engines which are to power the LCA. The US also denied the fly-by-wire system for the aircraft sold by the US firm Lockheed-Martin. As of June 1998 the first flight of the LCA had been delayed due to systems integration tests. The first flight awaits completion of the Digital Flight Control Systems, being developed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE).


Specifications
Wing Span 8.20 m
Length 13.20 m
Empty Weight 5500 kg
Engine Prototype - GE F404-F2J3 turbofan rated at 18,097 lbst
Production - Kaveri GTX-35VS turbofan rated at 20,200 lbst
Fuel Capacity Internal fuel capacity - 3000 liters
Centerline and the two-inner hardpoints under each wing can carry five 800 liters fuel tanks
also has an in-flight refuelling probe
Maximum Range ?
Maximum Speed Mach 1.7
Service Ceiling 50,000 feet.
G Limits +9/-3.5
Armament internally mounted GSh-23mm twin barrel gun with 220 rounds of ammunition
Seven external hardpoints, can carry air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles, anti-ship missiles, rocket launchers and ECM pods

Maximum External Stores Load 4000kg (8818 lbs.)
Self Defence RWR system, jammer and chaff & flare dispensers.

available at: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/lca.htm

Not a single word on any stealth work to the aircraft whatsoever.
 

Indianguy

New Member
Oh man How mnay times should I say that ............. With it small size and coated with Radar Obsorbing Paint Coating , It will hard to detect. I am not not saying it will completly invisible ....... i am just saying it will be hard to detect when coated with Rader Obsorbing Paint.

DRDO is working on it. Ill try to find out about it more

Well LCA is also going to be armed with EWS. ;)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Indianguy said:
Oh man How mnay times should I say that ............. With it small size and coated with Radar Obsorbing Paint Coating , It will hard to detect. I am not not saying it will completly invisible ....... i am just saying it will be hard to detect when coated with Rader Obsorbing Paint.

DRDO is working on it. Ill try to find out about it more

Well LCA is also going to be armed with EWS. ;)
But, radar coatings typically only result in a 20% increase in lower obervability. The design still has to be LO capable for a coating to start working.

Low observability cannot be retro fitted, the basic design has to be sympathetic to stealth concepts. If you look at the air intake design, engine outlet, even the fundamental design of the wings etc do not indicate any stealth design concepts in play.

It may have lower observability due to a smaller size, but size does not always reflect lower RCS.

It's a capable design effort, but it's not a platform where stealthiness was one of the design requirements.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
As I've said all along. The LCA isn't a bad effort, it's simply not a stealthy aircraft. Why not be proud of what has been achieved rather than try and boast about something the aircraft is not and was never designed to be?
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
Simply put, the LCA and the Thunder are aircraft of the same class.Same capabilities, similar mission profiles,avionics profiles etc.Though I must say that the Thunder's design puts a lot of emphasis on maneauverability while the LCA's emphasis is on higher supersonic stability.
 

adsH

New Member
I think this Radar absorbing paint is loads of bull i bet it does not absorb radar Photon particle how can a material of that type do such thing i think it is the Angle of deflection that is altered to scatter the Photon and the mixture particle in the coat ensure that no or very few Photon particles ever deflect back at the same angle. there fore you have Low Radar Visibility. i think the magnetic feild of the B-2 has something to with absorbing or scattering Radar sweeps !!! what do you think guys!!
 

Gremlin29

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
GF hinted at this earlier. "Stealth" aircraft incorporate a boggling array of technologies not one of which will make a none stealth aircraft truely stealthy. Reallize that even the windscreen has a microns thick layer of gold plating to reflect the IR signature of the pilot and cockpit components. Ambient air is scooped and mixed into the exhaust to lower it's IR signature. Both F117 and B2 also incorporate synthetic tiles borrowed from the space shuttle program which absorb radiant heat from the engine's themselves. Stealth aircraft also rely on their physical shape as well as component composition to lower their radar return. Finally, yes the paint even quite literally absorbs "some" of the radar waves. Not one of these components contribute to the majority of either aircrafts stealthiness but rather are the components that make the sum total of stealth.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Stealth

I thought I'd do a quick and dirty article on stealth so that its easier to understand some of the responses people like Aussie-Digger, Gremlin and myself make. The first part I wrote, the last part I got lazy. ;)

Typical stealth features:
The plane does not have any antennas or protruding objects.
Minimal flow design. e.g. The stealth bomber consists of only a wing. Radar signals tend to pass over the aerodynamic flying-wing. (much like laminar flow)

Reduced Radar Cross Section. The measure of how much a platform or object reflects radar is called the radar cross section, (RCS). The lower the RCS, the less visible the platform is. The B-2's RCS has been estimated at one millionth of a square meter (a Toyota Landcruiser sized vehicle’s RCS is about 180-200 square meters).
Platform Shaping. Stealth aircraft design requires careful and complex shaping of both exterior and interior components. The tolerances required to achieve this are enormous, and are typically outside of the skills available in a normal production line. In a real sense stealth aircraft are more “hand built†than general aviation platforms.

Tolerances. Parts machining and other components need to be of exceptional tolerances, both during manfacture and during the assembly of the platform. The sensitivity of construction can be to such a level that even scratching the surface of the structure (eg a wing) will increase the radar cross-section of the plane. Surfaces are typically flush, so as not to interrupt laminar flow. (Laminar flow being a good example of not only flight behavioural characteristics, but also the way that radar signals will travel over the platform.

Electronics. Every platform has a degree of electronic intervention to assist in signal reduction.

Engines.

The engine design and type is critical. Typically non stealth platforms use turbojets or low-bypass turbofans. The design of these engines is to suck in a small amount of air and accelerate it out the back at high speed to produce thrust. It is a very noisy process. OTOH stealth planes and some of the newer aircraft use engines that are called high-bypass turbofans. These engines take in a much larger quantity of air but accelerate it far less. They are able to generate more thrust due to inherent efficiencies. High-bypass turbofans also have a n added side benefit in that the way that they exhaust air. It is much like a mufflered system, because it’s exhaust is sending larger “pockets†or large cushions of slower-moving air around the noisy part of the engine, this effect blocks much of the noise so the engine is significantly quieter.

The fan blades at the front of a jet engine and the turbine blades on the back are very radar reflective. Most stealth aircraft place the engine ducts above the wing or fuselage to help block the engine interiors from radar sources below the aircraft. The F-117 also makes use of special screens on the engine inlets that block radar waves from reaching these surfaces. However, these screens are difficult to design because of their adverse impact on engine performance and have been abandoned in later stealth aircraft. More recent stealth designs use S-ducted inlets that bend off center to hide the blades from being seen. The F-117 also makes use of a special "platypus" nozzle that effectively hides the turbine blades from any radar source behind the aircraft.

The other technique used to make a stealth plane quieter is to place the engines on top of the plane so that their noise is blocked from reaching the ground by the body of the aircraft itself. This also acts as an infra red mask by shielding the hot exhaust tip signature from lower (usually ground based) detectors

/excerpt on

Radar cross section (RCS):

Radar, short for radio detection and ranging, is an instument that sends out radio beams and then picks up any reflected energy from aircraft, ships, or other objects to determine their location and speed. The range at which radar can detect an object is related to the power transmitted by the radar set, the fidelity of the radar antenna, the wavelength of the radar signal, and the radar cross section (RCS) of the vehicle. RCS, a measure of the radar waves scattered in a given direction, is the only variable an aircraft designer has any control over.

At first, designers tried to reduce RCS by placing various radar-absorbant coatings on the aircraft exterior. However, these coatings typically only produced minor reductions in RCS since many parts of the aircraft cannot be covered (cockpit windows and engines, for example). Designers soon realized that the only way to make substantial redcutions in RCS was by carefully designing each portion of the aircraft to scatter radar waves away from their source. Some obvious solutions led to moderate reductions. For example, 90° corners and flat perpendicular surfaces were found to produce high radar returns, so designers rounded corners and used chined noses as well as canted vertical tails to reduce radar signatures. The Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird is an excellent example of these early efforts.

However, these modifications were only made when they did not interfere drastically with the overall performance of the design. Though the final product might have been more stealthy, it was still detectable. The revolution in radar stealth came in the 1970s when computers were powerful enough to solve the Maxwell electromagnetic equations for reasonably complicated shapes. These equations determine how radar waves are reflected and scattered, and by developing the capability to analytically predict the RCS of an entire aircraft from different angles, designers were able to drastically reduce the RCS. The major limitation of this early method was that it could only analyze flat panels. As a result, the F-117 and its Have Blue prototypes were composed of a number of faceted panels. The massive improvements in computer technology over the past two decades have allowed the same basic method to be applied to smooth, contoured surfaces. These improved codes have been instrumental in designing aircraft like the B-2 and F-22.

In addition to the overall shaping of the aircraft, a number of other aircraft components can produce high radar returns. These include:

cockpit and other windows: The interior of the cockpit is full of sharp corners and reflective metal objects. Even the pilot's helmet is radar reflective. The F-117 uses flat window panels and radar-absorbing treatments on the cockpit windows. The same methods are also used on the windows housing the bomb laser-guidance systems. These measures block radar waves from entering these areas.

sharp perpendicular edges: Any kind of edge perpendicular to radar waves causes them to to be diffracted and reflected. In particular, the edges of landing gear doors and other access doors as well as the trailing edges of the wings produce strong radar returns. This effect can be minimized by sweeping the edges so they are not perpendicular to the radar waves. Thus, the edges of doors on the F-117 and other stealth aircraft are covered with small saw-tooths, or diamond-shaped edges that dissipate the radar energy in many directions.

Infrared signature:
Along with radar, another major detection system used today is infrared heat sensors, such as night-vision goggles. In addition, most short-range missiles like Sidewinder home-in on heat sources, including aircraft engines. The key to reducing an aircraft's infrared signature is to cool the exhaust air rapidly using long nozzle ducts or mixing the exhaust with cooler air. The F-117 platypus nozzle, one of the more difficult items to construct, does both of these things. The Stealth Fighter also uses a high-bypass turbofan engine that mixes the hot jet exhaust with cooler bypass air. The B-2 and YF-23 also route the hot exhaust through long troughs coated with heat-absorbing material that not only help cool the air but block the hot gases from being seen from below.

Aural signature:
Aircraft are noisy, and all the fancy methods to reduce RCS or infrared-signature mean nothing when someone on the ground hears your plane roaring by. In an aircraft such as the F-117 where it is a high-altitude bomber, this issue isn't so critical, but high-bypass turbofan engines do tend to be much quieter than turbojets. Most stealth aircraft are also subsonic so they do not create sonic booms. (The US is working on reshaping and conformal technology where supersonic flight can be achieved without signaling a “boomâ€)

Visibility:
The ultimate level of stealth is to make the aircraft invisible to the human eye. Obviously, nothing developed to date (that we know about) has achieved this extreme, but experiments to find methods of doing so are ongoing. The most common and least sophisticated approach is through the use of camouflage paint schemes. Light glinting off of canopies can also be reduced using flat panels or special coatings. More sophisticated approaches revolve around using lights or mirrors to bend beams of light around the aircraft making it more difficult to spot. However, little information about this kind of research is publicly available. In addition, care must be taken to avoid contrails, the white trails of condensed water vapor that can be seen in engine exhausts. Cooling the exhaust goes a long way towards achieving this goal, and special fuel additives that help eliminate contrails have also been developed. A number of high altitude aircraft in the USAF use contrail additives to reduce the “plumeâ€.

Canted Tails
Lockheed designers included these canted tails based on early research into stealth technology. As far back as the 1940s, engineers had realized that perpendicular surfaces, like vertical tails, generated strong radar returns. By canting the tails away from 90°, the radar cross-section (RCS) of an aircraft could be considerably reduced. Kelly Johnson of Lockheed included canted tails in the SR-71 design since the original CIA requirements called for an aircraft as difficult to detect as possible, given the limited techniques of the day.

Northrop and McDonnell Douglas included canted tails on the YF-17, F-18, and F-18E/F for similar reasons. Though none of these planes is a true stealth aircraft by any means, simply canting the tails away from the vertical reduces the RCS to the same levels as a smaller aircraft.

The canted tails on these aircraft also provide some aerodynamic benefits as well. Along the sides of the forward fuselage are two long strakes called leading-edge extensions. These surfaces generate strong swirling vortices that allow the aircraft to operate at very high angles of attack, up to 50° on the F-18. As the vortices travel back away from the plane, they create a high-speed airflow past the two vertical tails making them more effective in providing yaw control. In addition, the tails generate some pitch control since the aerodynamic forces acting on the canted tails are broken into vertical and horizontal components. The horizontal component is used most effectively during takeoff. By turning both rudders inboard, the vertical tails produce sufficient downforce to help lift the nose of the plane and allow it to takeoff at a lower speed.

Factors that determine the energy returned by a target
A term used to describe the relationship between these variables is power density, sometimes also called power flux. To understand power density, consider the following diagram. The power transmitted by a radar is dissipated the further it travels because it is spread over an increasingly larger area. The area over which the power is spread is proportional to the square of the distance, or range (R), from the transmitting radar. The amount of power spread over a given area is called the power density, and this quantity decreases by the square of the range. The power density of the transmitted radar wave at the range of the target has a special name called the incident power density

Radar cross section of a cylinder
Data of this form is also routinely collected for more complex shapes, like complete aircraft. However, these RCS signatures from all aspects are seldom declassified until long after the aircraft has been removed from service. The only data I have been able to find so far is for the obsolete T-33 trainer that dates back to the 1940s..

/excerpt off

So, when you look at the complexity of what is required to render an aircraft with lower visibility, you can see that the majority of the requirements are not met by production aircraft like the LCA or FC-1
 

tahir_kheshgi

New Member
first of all... i think all the indians should really stop looking at FAS to make a point! FAS is the biggest bul on the net when we talk about defence analysts! it is just owned by this guy (cant remember his name, will let u know as i remember it) who doesnt know nothing about Pakistan
this is a site which writes that Shaheen 1 has a range of 800 km, while it is really above 1000km... i know it has nothing to do with the Airforce... but it shows their lack of knowledge about pakistani defence!

well all i have to say is that pakistan will have atleast 8 JF-17s by 2006 where as LCA will still be no where seen! JF-17 requirements were realistically set by PAF and China.. they didnt want to b over confident! PAF didnt say that it will b the daddy of F-22. they knew their abilities and they shown it on JF-17. whereas India are shooting stars and not realising their potential!! one produce these sort of fighters step by step. JF-17 is a great effort by Pak and China. To say that it is better than F-16s that pak has is a great achievement! Now that they have made it, they will go on to the next step.. and so on!!
You dont just wakeup one day, realise nothing good is on TV so lets make a fighter which can b compared wid rafale and eurofighter etc. like indians! thats just silly...

hey is there some sort of official debut flight of LCA as yet?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I don't use FAS or Globalsecurity except for generalist data, otherwise it tends to be inaccurate.

It's not a source you'd use for a precision response. ;)
 
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