Chinese Invasion of N. Korea

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
To Feanor and Swerve and answered in the lost logical order I can .



You dont think that North Korea constitutes the near abroad? Or to put it another way, what are the two main complaints Russia has against the West? Well, encirclement and SDI (or whatever Strategic Missile Defence is called today).
No. The DPRK is not part of the near-abroad. The term near abroad applies to the FSU states, sometimes excluding the Baltics. The DPRK is not a hydro-carbon state, nor a transit route. Hence they are essetially irrelevant. The FSU in that sense on the other hand is vital. It's either a source og hydrocarbons, (mainly the CAR and Russia), or a transit corridor such as Belarus, Ukraine, the Caucus. There are a few other interests, such as some joint projects left over from the Soviet days, and some joint projects being run right now. In general this is the region where Russia considers itself the pre-eminent power and is willing to use force to demonstrate that.

How the do you think the Russian Govt views the current situation where a large and growing fleet of American, Japanese and South Korean Aegis Destroyers and Frigates, sporting their US supplied Anti Ballistic Missile systems, are sitting off its Eastern Coast, backed up with Land based systems on Japan and waiting to shoot down a North Korean Ballistic Missile for (one must suppose) the sole purpose of provoking this prickly little country into starting a war which if unopposed, would result in US occuaption of North Korea and the placement of not only US Land, Sea and Air forces close to the border, but plenty more Anti Missile Defence systems as well?
Illogical. Nothing prevents the US deploying ABM systems in the region right now. The DPRK is not geographically important in that sense. The ABM systems are already deployed, and going into a suicidal war over the DPRK will not remove them. Russia has no interests in direct military action. We will however make bold diplomatic statements, and veto UN resolutions. It's also quite likely that we will deploy some token international peacekeepers once the fighting is over, and possibly contribute humanitarian aid or reconstruction.
 

HKSDU

New Member
As this is clear OT I suggest you PM me if you have specific questions. Just a few points, as swerve and Ozzy Blizzard pointed you to the right direction already:
I don't know what definition of wealth or being rich you're referring to, but neither Russia nor China are "rich" countries compared to the EU or the US. Debt or account surplusses are misleading and far too simple indicators in this respect.
See, this is pointless, you'd have to write a dozen books to explain everything.



And this is simply wrong. Yes, Asia is getting more important as wealth spreads throughout the region. But if you'd have a look at trade figures you'd see that your claim is not true. Germany for example as biggest export country in the EU had an export volume of more than 73 billion € with the US and about 30 billion € with China in 2007.
haha your figures are 2 years old, those figures were before the financial collaspe. So you got incorrect data. The matter is China is buying up alot of companies, and opening alot of trades in RECENT times with EU and Australian companies. China mineral resource deals with Australia is big deal. Measuring a nation by GDP PPP isnt all that correct. Sure US has a high GDP per person and nation, but the matter is regardless of how high their GDP is they still are acting as if they never owed or need to owe excess of $730 billion. Many nations are creating new job prospects, yet only recently has US decided to do so. They kept printing out US notes, whats the use of printing out money if your trade, currency are falling. If you didnt notice, tourist travelling to nations is more beneficial to China now then it is to US the other way. The matter is US is in debt, and people keep thinking they are rich cause they have high GDP. What they need to do, is increase in co-production firms in Asia. They need to open up more trade with Russia and Asia, not just China. Though China seems to be the only one that can. Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan and South Korea, Asian finance leaders have all suffered extremely bad. Hong Kong is being held in their by the help of mainland China.
 

Sampanviking

Banned Member
No. The DPRK is not part of the near-abroad. The term near abroad applies to the FSU states, sometimes excluding the Baltics. The DPRK is not a hydro-carbon state, nor a transit route. Hence they are essetially irrelevant. The FSU in that sense on the other hand is vital. It's either a source og hydrocarbons, (mainly the CAR and Russia), or a transit corridor such as Belarus, Ukraine, the Caucus. There are a few other interests, such as some joint projects left over from the Soviet days, and some joint projects being run right now. In general this is the region where Russia considers itself the pre-eminent power and is willing to use force to demonstrate that.



Illogical. Nothing prevents the US deploying ABM systems in the region right now. The DPRK is not geographically important in that sense. The ABM systems are already deployed, and going into a suicidal war over the DPRK will not remove them. Russia has no interests in direct military action. We will however make bold diplomatic statements, and veto UN resolutions. It's also quite likely that we will deploy some token international peacekeepers once the fighting is over, and possibly contribute humanitarian aid or reconstruction.
I have to say that I find very little logic in the events that have started any major war in the last hundred years or so, rather a rather potent mix of fear and pride. That being said I do agree that I would not expect Russia to be an open adversary in any Korean coflict (although a side issue with Japan is possible if the opportunity arose). Your sanguine view on encirclement is not one I have to say that I sense from comments from Moscow and nothing to suggest that it would tolerate being diminished as a Pacific Power.

Still the danger remains that a major conflict promotes uncertainty and instability in other areas and that this can quickly assume a life very much of its own.

If something major does start (and I genuinely hope nothing happens at all) it would be the PRC taking the brunt, but I think it can expect plenty of material assistance from its SCO Ally and no comfort to western forces.

It is also little more than week to go before we find out beyond any reasonable doubt.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Ultimately though if the rosy situation described by Swerve was a reality, then how would North Korea have been able to get away with its behaviour for so long? It is simply because it knows that any attempt to attack it would drag in all the regional players and so it trades on it....
No, it's much simpler than that. North Korea is dangerous. A war would be horribly bloody, & would cost most of its neighbours a vast amount.

You have things about-face. Nobody has any interest in attacking North Korea. What they fear is North Korea starting a war. It gets away with so much by, essentially, blackmail. It's like someone with a suicide bombers belt strapped around him, demanding food, money, etc. from all around him. Nobody dares shoot him, for fear of setting off the bomb, & nobody dares deny his demands, in case he sets it off himself.

North Koreas forces lack the logistics for a sustained war & its weapons are mostly museum pieces, but it has so many troops, so many guns, mortars, & rocket launchers, so many tunnels & caverns to hide them in, and so much of S. Koreas population & industry is close to the border, that N. Korea could kill vast numbers of S. Koreans, & do immense economic damage, before being beaten.

The military defeat of N. Korea would bring about a complete economic collapse of the country, & probably trigger the flight of millions of refugees. The logical direction for them to flee would be towards China, causing a huge military, economic & social problem for China. Disruption of trade caused by a war would also be extremely expensive.

Chinas response is complicated by internal factors. There are millions of Korean-Chinese on the Chinese side of the border. So far, they prefer life as loyal citizens of China to the alternatives. China does not want to arouse nationalist sentiments among them.

You referred elsewhere to China preferring re-unification under its proxy. That implies some false assumptions. Firstly, that N. Korea is a Chinese proxy. In reality, while China may enjoy seeing it cocking a snook at the USA, it is far more of an irritant than an ally. N. Korea is expensive for China, in aid to keep its economy functioning enough to keep the number of starving Koreans trying to cross the border down to a manageable level. The border needs guarding closely, both to keep out refugees, & because N. Korea is badly behaved enough that its border guards will pursue those fleeing into China, if not prevented by Chinese guards. It is unpredictable, which is very worrying in a heavily-armed neighbour. It is economically incompetent, making it uselss as a trading partner. If it had the industry (damaged, but most would survive) & technology of the South, it would doubtless feel emboldened, & even less likely to be a good neighbour to China. N. Korea needs external enemies to maintain its system. Take away a US-backed S. Korea, & what is left? Japan & China. Japan is across the sea, & N. Korean claims to islands could be no more than an irritant to it. Japan will always be able to deal with them rather easily.

Once the S. Korean economy had been reduced to the catastrophic level of the north (& it would be), it would be back to blackmail for essentials, & China would probably be a better blackmail target than Japan - remember that Korean minority across the border in China, & the land border.

For S. Korea, there is no incentive to attack the north. Assuming it would win the bloody & destructive war, it would still have suffered immensely, & would then have the ghastly prospect of trying to make good the damage, at the same time as integrating the disaster area that is N. Korea. An appalling prospect.

Things aren't rosy, & I have never said that they are. N. Korea is a sore in the side of East Asia. Where we differ is that I assume that N. Koreas neighbours will probably seek to act in their own best interests, while you assume that they will all act irrationally. They may, & one should consider how to respond if they do, but it does not make sense to assume that irrationality is the most probable behaviour. Nor does it make sense to assume that they will act against past precedent - and remember that Russia has always avoided directly fighting the USA, as has China since the end of the Korean War.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
... That being said I do agree that I would not expect Russia to be an open adversary in any Korean coflict (although a side issue with Japan is possible if the opportunity arose). ...
What could Russia possibly stand to gain from any "side issue with Japan"? What "side issue" might there be? You think Russia might like to seize Hokkaido, thus making Japan a full ally of S. Korea, inducing it to throw away the pacifist clauses of its constitution, & starting a full-scale war against Japan & the USA?

Japan could go nuclear at the drop of a hat. It has tons (yes, tons) of plutonium in store (legally, declared to the IAEA), & all the technology needed to build warheads & missiles. It has its own satellite launchers, far better than anything N. Korea can build. A good country to turn into an open enemy? It is investing in Russias Far East, & is a huge market for the energy resources there. Do you think Russia wants to close those resources to everyone except China, & get whatever China condescends to pay, as the monopsody customer?
 

HKSDU

New Member
wouldnt the current status quo be the most peaceful solution for North Korea and the rest of Asia? cause i really dont see a unified Korea anytime soon or in our lifetime, unless a major war broke out, or a complete idiot of a leader on either sides.
 
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crobato

New Member
What could Russia possibly stand to gain from any "side issue with Japan"? What "side issue" might there be? You think Russia might like to seize Hokkaido, thus making Japan a full ally of S. Korea, inducing it to throw away the pacifist clauses of its constitution, & starting a full-scale war against Japan & the USA?

Japan could go nuclear at the drop of a hat. It has tons (yes, tons) of plutonium in store (legally, declared to the IAEA), & all the technology needed to build warheads & missiles. It has its own satellite launchers, far better than anything N. Korea can build. A good country to turn into an open enemy? It is investing in Russias Far East, & is a huge market for the energy resources there. Do you think Russia wants to close those resources to everyone except China, & get whatever China condescends to pay, as the monopsody customer?
Russia already has a deal with China on the oil pipeline. Whatever Japan is investing on Siberia, apparently not as much as China can, e.g. $25 billion in loans.
 

mickk

New Member
The North Korean People have been brainwashed in the same way the Japanese population was.

NK would gladly line up millions of men and women in full frontal Infantry assaults against the best arms the west has to offer. There would be no thought of not following orders.

It would make the Somme look like a picnic.
 

Sampanviking

Banned Member
Well there is plenty of material to come back on, but since I have been voicing my very real concern rather than just entertaining myself with parlour debate, all I will say this time is that fortunatly, comments coming out of both Washington and Tokyo over the weekend suggest a considerable toning down of rhetoric and a sense of backing off.

I certainly hope so and with my own concerns also subsiding I will leave it here for the time being unless the tension starts to intensify again.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Russia already has a deal with China on the oil pipeline. Whatever Japan is investing on Siberia, apparently not as much as China can, e.g. $25 billion in loans.
Loans are not investments. They're loans. I.e. if the enterprise they were loaned to goes bankrupt, they still need to be repaid. Investment is something else, where the investor shares a large part of the risk, and therefore has a much bigger stake in seeing it succeed. ;)
 

crobato

New Member
China has other investments in Siberia, but still the 25 billion loan is the kicker for the pipeline.

This was back in October 28.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=081028133121.m43iggtc&show_article=1

"Russia and China on Tuesday signed a long-awaited deal to build an oil pipeline from Siberia to China after talks between Prime Minister Wen Jiabao and Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin.

The leaders watched as Chinese state energy major CNPC and Russian state pipeline monopoly Transneft signed the deal to build the pipeline from the Siberian town of Skovorodino to the Chinese border. "
 

autumn child

New Member
Loans are not investments. They're loans. I.e. if the enterprise they were loaned to goes bankrupt, they still need to be repaid. Investment is something else, where the investor shares a large part of the risk, and therefore has a much bigger stake in seeing it succeed. ;)
in financial term, loans are investments. the point of loan is to use certain amount of money to earn more money trhough interest. Risk and return analysis are done in similar fashion to investment.

The bigest diference is the status between creditor and shareholder. I think this is what you are refering to. creditors are in much safer position than shareholders, but shareholders can potentially earn higher return with more risk.

But the most important thing is that both creditors and shareholders have a say in the company's decision making. Therefore, china will have alot of say in the supply of energy from russia.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
That's exactly the difference I'm highlighting. Chinese say in Russian energy will be less because it's only loan, then if it was a bona fide investment. And by the way not all loans are made for investment purposes.
 

crobato

New Member
What you're saying don't make any financial sense. Do you want to try getting a loan from a bank? A bank attaches many conditions to that loan, so you really cannot say, I declare the loan is for this then use it elsewhere. As a matter of fact, a contract is made between you and the lender.

They don't call it an investment loan for nothing. An investment loan is a loan made to finance an appreciable or money making asset.
 

Sampanviking

Banned Member
Both terms Loan and Investment can have a wide range of conditions and terms. When dealing with Corporations of any kind, the only basic division, is that an Investment should usually mean buying stock that gives the holder voting rights and a seat on the company's board, while Loan has no Voting or Management rights, but should dictate an agreed return over an agreed period and would usually be held through some form of non voting share, or other Loan Stock or Debenture.

In the case of China, they seem to be financing these kind of projects through kinds of prepaid orders, in which they receive payment through agreed quantities of raw material (oil in this instance) to be delivered in full by an agreed date or schedule of dates.
 
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