China's J-11

[T-95]

What bad cockpit design? The J-11B has four MFDs. It uses a wide angle 3D holographic HUD. There is only two other aircraft I know that has this, the Rafale and the F-22. The sensors include an optical/UV missile approach warning system, which is a first for any Flanker.

The airframe is designed to last for 10,000 flight hours. Check recent Jane's issue. The engines are meant at least for 1500 flight hours before overhaul, which is 50% more than the standard series 3 AL-31F. The early batches of AL-31F were lasting only up to 750 hours.

The engines produce 13,200kg of thrust over the standard 12,500, and the use of composite and lightweight materials reduced the net weight of the plane by 700kg. That's 1400kg of extra thrust total with 700kg of weight reduction. That's probably the reason why the plane can fly slightly higher then the standard Flanker.

I'm talking about the current J-11 your talking about the prototype thats about to go into production. And you can't really trust those figures that were on a magazine they really don't know. The Indians were having a lot of trouble with there engines. And please post a link where it says the airframe can last for 10,000 hrs. because the manufacturers website said it only lasts for 3500 hrs.

 

[tphuang]

I'm talking about the current J-11 your talking about the prototype thats about to go into production. And you can't really trust those figures that were on a magazine they really don't know. The Indians were having a lot of trouble with there engines. And please post a link where it says the airframe can last for 10,000 hrs. because the manufacturers website said it only lasts for 3500 hrs.

The 10000 hours is from a recent edition of JDW. The one from two weeks ago if you want to be exact. As for J-11 avionics, it's not that cut and dry. The avionics has slowly become more and more indigenized as the license production went on until J-11B, which is now fully indigenized.

 

[T-95]

I heard the Chinese reversed engineered a whole bunch of crap like our JDAM's HARM's and several A2G munitions as well as avionics from the F-16 Block 50/52. I guess we can thank the Israelis for this. Any ways this would make for a great "indigenised" J-11.

 

[tphuang]

I heard the Chinese reversed engineered a whole bunch of crap like our JDAM's HARM's and several A2G munitions as well as avionics from the F-16 Block 50/52. I guess we can thank the Israelis for this. Any ways this would make for a great "indigenised" J-11.

You heard wrong. They take concepts from Americans, so they know what kind of weapons should be developed, and then they develop them. Although, the LGB has a lot of similarities to the Russian KAB-500L I have to admit and YJ-91 is basically just Chinese version of KH-31

 

[weasel1962]

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[weasel1962]

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[Schumacher]

...... With all the troubles the Chinese went through to get the Speys, the WS10A is probably another licensed production (although Chinese propaganda will continue to suggest that it is a "chinese-made" engine. China's tech is not that advanced and many are prone to over-estimate their capabilities.
...........

So WS10A is a 'licensed production' from which other engine manufacturer ?

 

[weasel1962]

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[crobato]

The reason why the Chinese bought into the Su-27 is simple. It is the best available to the Chinese. In 1996, no european country could sell to China due to the TianAnMen. The J-8 upgrade programme was stalled. US had similar restrictions to the Europeans.

Even then, the Chinese could only get the Su-27SK model (which doesn't fire the R-77). It was only later in this decade that the Su-30MK models became available to the Chinese. That's why 170 out of the 270+ sukhois that the Chinese have are still the older version sukhois.

The Chinese actually got the Su-30MK at the start of this decade.

That's why if one reads the 2007 China military report to congress (drafted by the DOD), we'd see that China is finally license producing the Su-27SMK version and we'd probably see upgrades of its earlier Su-27SKs to this version.

The report was probably done by some clerk who should have known better, given the other errors circulating in the report.

China isn't license producing the Su-27SKM, the Russians have not confirmed this. The Su-27SMK is quite different from the J-11B, and both planes are well documented. Despite being very different inside, the J-11B still physically copies the Su-27SK down to the RWR housings near the engine intake.

On the other hand, the Su-27SKM, has offset IFR probe, offset IRST, 12 hardpoints, and don't show the RWR blades anymore.

Inside the planes are very different.

Su-27SKM uses twist cassegrain N001VEP radar from the Su-30MK2. The J-11B uses slotted array KLJ-4, which is related to the KLJ-3 from the J-10. The SKM uses Russian AAMs like R-77, the J-11B uses Chinese AAMs like PL-8 and PL-12. The former uses Series 3 AL-31F for the engine, latter the WS-10B, adding a total of 1400kg of additional thrust. The cockpit of the SKM uses 3 MFDs; the cockpit is the copy of the Su-30MK2. The J-11B cockpit has four MFDs, and a large wide angle wide screen 3D holographic HUD. When it comes to defensive measures, the J-11B boasts optical missile approach warning systems matched to the RWR and all interconnected to the flares/chaff system. The SKM uses the Pastel RWR from the Su-30MKK. The SKM still uses the old Su-27 analog flight control system, the J-11B uses a digital FBW.

To put it in another way, the J-11B uses a lot of J-10 related technologies. One can better put it as a Flanker with the soul of the J-10. The SKM is an Su-27 with the soul of an Su-30MKK.

The Su-27SMK (note the difference of the letter arrangement from SKM), is a defunct project in the nineties that planned for the use of the Zhuk-27 radar, offset IFR and IRST, 12 hardpoints and provisions for external fuel tanks. From the avionics point of view, its very different from the SKM.

Many analysts believe that the J11B is a 2 seater chinese copy of the J-11A. For myself, I think it is just a licensed SU-27 UBK version upgraded to SMK standard that received a lot of Russian inputs to develop. With all the troubles the Chinese went through to get the Speys, the WS10A is probably another licensed production (although Chinese propaganda will continue to suggest that it is a "chinese-made" engine. China's tech is not that advanced and many are prone to over-estimate their capabilities.

Analysts are full of crap. Starting with, Chinese designation do not use "B" to designate two seater, which is US parlance. The correct designation for Chinese two seater J-11 would have been either J-11S the S being the Chinese word for twin, or JJ-11, if its really just for training. They did not call the two seater J-10 JJ-10 but J-10S, which means the two seater J-10 is more than just a trainer and has unique capabilities of its own. That does not make the J-10S just a two seater version of the J-10.

The Su-27UBK is not licensed to China by any means. But making a twin seater isn't something hard for China to do. After all, the Chinese actually made twin seater MiG-17s and MiG-19s when the Russians never actually made such planes (only planned it). China never got the plans for the twin seater MiG-21F either, before their relationship with the Soviet Union turned cold, so they pretty much reinvented the concept for their own JJ-7.

 

[wp2000]

The reason why the Chinese bought into the Su-27 is simple. It is the best available to the Chinese. In 1996, no european country could sell to China due to the TianAnMen. The J-8 upgrade programme was stalled. US had similar restrictions to the Europeans.

Even then, the Chinese could only get the Su-27SK model (which doesn't fire the R-77). It was only later in this decade that the Su-30MK models became available to the Chinese. That's why 170 out of the 270+ sukhois that the Chinese have are still the older version sukhois.

That's why if one reads the 2007 China military report to congress (drafted by the DOD), we'd see that China is finally license producing the Su-27SMK version and we'd probably see upgrades of its earlier Su-27SKs to this version.

Many analysts believe that the J11B is a 2 seater chinese copy of the J-11A. For myself, I think it is just a licensed SU-27 UBK version upgraded to SMK standard that received a lot of Russian inputs to develop. With all the troubles the Chinese went through to get the Speys, the WS10A is probably another licensed production (although Chinese propaganda will continue to suggest that it is a "chinese-made" engine. China's tech is not that advanced and many are prone to over-estimate their capabilities.

Chinese forces are nevertheless growing potent as the 2007 report suggests. ~18 J-11A/Bs are added to the fleet annually. Between 24 to 48 J-10s (avg 36) are being produced annually (with ~250 projected to enter service by 2011/12). Add that to 300 J-8s and 600+ J7s make up a reasonable air defence fleet.

What? Many analysts believe J11B is a 2 seater Flanker? As far as I know, You are the first one to say so actually .

 

[wp2000]

Officially, the WS-10A is a chinese engine developed from the AL-31. Unofficially (by me guessing only), it is a license copy of the AL-31. Which version to believe is entirely up to the reader.

Officially? Which Official?
According to Chinese official (articles from the designers), WS10 core engine was derived from CFM56.

Do you have any proof for your Official and Unoffical version (license copy of AL31)? I'd like to verify them with some people.

 

[wp2000]

But I do agree that China can produce AL31 though.

 

[T-95]

Do any of the versions of J-11 use F-16 tech they obtained from the Israelis? Just to note if it uses J-10 tech then it uses F-16 tech.

 

[wp2000]

Do any of the versions of J-11 use F-16 tech they obtained from the Israelis? Just to note if it uses J-10 tech then it uses F-16 tech.

I believe they used more Wright brothers' tech than F16's

 

[T-95]

I believe they used more Wright brothers' tech than F16's

Some one on here said they used some J-10 tech on the "indegnized" J-11. As I understand the J-10 uses ALOT of F-16 tech so wouldn't this mean that it dose in someway use technology from the F-16.

 

[crobato]

What "F-16 tech" really? The most important F-16 "tech" is in the aerodynamics, and the J-10 doesn't even use the same configuration. Tailed airplane, clipped wings with LERX vs. delta wings with canard? A lot of other techs are not exclusive to the F-16 and are commonly found in many planes like FBW and composites. The FBW for the J-10 would have to be different from the F-16 due to their plane configurations. The Su-27/J-11 has a configuration closer to the F-16 but the plane is a lot bigger.

 

[weasel1962]

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[crobato]

Ok, admit I spoke loosely. Should have done a bit more homework.

In mitigation,

1) the original WS-10 design based on the CFM 56 would never have achieved 13200 kg thrust. It would have to copy the F110 design which China doesn't have access to.

What makes you think it can't? There are obvious ways to increase the power such as raising the compression ratio.

2) to fit on the Su-27, you'd need a similar sized engine to the AL-31.

At the very least, substantial technologies would have to be adapted from the AL-31. That at least is logical.

Being similarly sized and even having compatible fittings does not mean the internal core is the same, like the WP-14 Kunlun to the WP-13A/B series.

 

[weasel1962]

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[crobato]

So answer me this. If this was so easy to achieve, why did the Chinese never achieve self manufacture of the Speys? In the end, they still had to license the engine. The technologies are not that easily adaptable otherwise every single country in the world would be manufacturing jet engines.

The deal with Speys were from the beginning, to be licensed in the first place. That goes way back to the seventies. Why would you copy, when you can already license?

I'm no engine manufacturer but it doesn't take a genius to know when things don't add up. China did not acquire the technologies to manufacture such classes of engines until the introduction of the AL31.

Having the AL-31F would not give China to technology to manufacture such an engine.

Sure, there is always a possibility that chinese engineers taught themselves everything about engine designs. I find that very unlikely so like I said, I'd keep to my views and everyone else is welcome to theirs. It doesn't matter on this matter if I'm wrong or others think I am. China still has their engine.

In the fifties, China sent its young minds to study in the Soviet Union. When they came out of it, these young engineers are heavily versed and studied in the technologies of the Soviet Union, which enabled them to and develop J-6, J-7, J-8, Q-5, and their engines, among other things.

From the eighties till today China learned like everyone else, which is to send students to study in universities around the world. In so doing they have much greater contact with Western science, technology and engineering, and this is what they brought back to China. Guess what they would all look up to as models of engineering? Not to mention the influence of Israelis, French, and various Western companies like GE, Boeing and Airbus

China is exposed to CFM-56 technology longer than the AL-31F. There are a lot more CFM-56 based engines sitting in China around various airports and maintenance depots than AL-31F. J-10 first flight was with the original WS-10 before later, switching to AL-31FN due to the length of time of spool. As a note, China certainly didn't get single crystal blade technology from the Russians, who themselves were also quite late in having such techs.