I was just wondering why the Chinese would want to buy a license to build a variant of the Su-27 when it doesn't even match up the F-15C's the US has? Are they putting some kind of advanced radar in it? And if not is there really any improvement from the Su-27 to J-11? I read on wikipedia that the Su-27 has a service ceiling of 58,000 ft. or something and that J-11 has a service ceiling of 65,000 ft., why is this?
China's J-11
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1. Since basic Su-27 engine imporved quite bit.I was just wondering why the Chinese would want to buy a license to build a variant of the Su-27 when it doesn't even match up the F-15C's the US has? Are they putting some kind of advanced radar in it? And if not is there really any improvement from the Su-27 to J-11? I read on wikipedia that the Su-27 has a service ceiling of 58,000 ft. or something and that J-11 has a service ceiling of 65,000 ft., why is this?
2. J-11 reportly have more advanced radar - either chinese produced slotted array which is roughtly equivalent to F-15C radar or russian/chinese PESA which is obviously better.
3. J-11 is better than _current_ USA F-15C - unless you meant F-15C with AESA of course.
4. China dont have anything better anyway. Currently AESA is out of reach for all nations except USA. Some other nations have it in experimental/development stage.
Maybe India will be second? Either with US made, or the Russia Zhuk-AE.1. Since basic Su-27 engine imporved quite bit.
2. J-11 reportly have more advanced radar - either chinese produced slotted array which is roughtly equivalent to F-15C radar or russian/chinese PESA which is obviously better.
3. J-11 is better than _current_ USA F-15C - unless you meant F-15C with AESA of course.
4. China dont have anything better anyway. Currently AESA is out of reach for all nations except USA. Some other nations have it in experimental/development stage.
In that case India will not be true "second" as India will not produce it by itself. Add useal procurement issues for MRCA... I really dont believe India will recive MRCA before 2012. I will probably bet on eurofighter/rafael - they have both experimental examples and decent platform to install. Russians are probable at the some stage as europeans, but they currently dont have airframe - only PAK-FA could realistically get it, and that will not enter service before 2012 at very least.Maybe India will be second? Either with US made, or the Russia Zhuk-AE.
Japan has its own AESA radar in service on the F-2. Reported to have major problems when entered service, though....
4. China dont have anything better anyway. Currently AESA is out of reach for all nations except USA. Some other nations have it in experimental/development stage.
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UAE also has AESA's on their F-16's and the Russians are already offering their AESA for export though they have not used it themselves.4. China dont have anything better anyway. Currently AESA is out of reach for all nations except USA. Some other nations have it in experimental/development stage.
Well, I guess we went far too away from topic, so i make it short here. AESA is in a quite mature state for both Euros and Russians. Despite of the Euros which no one have doubt on them, Russian is speeding up modernizations. Soon we will see bunch of upgrade for old SUs & Migs. PAK-FA is something like JSF, joint venture always bring dispute and take long time.In that case India will not be true "second" as India will not produce it by itself. Add useal procurement issues for MRCA... I really dont believe India will recive MRCA before 2012. I will probably bet on eurofighter/rafael - they have both experimental examples and decent platform to install. Russians are probable at the some stage as europeans, but they currently dont have airframe - only PAK-FA could realistically get it, and that will not enter service before 2012 at very least.
Back to J-11.
Agreed with Chrom, Chinese brought in Su-27 for the airframe. I guess (is not public either way), the contact means a empty airframe and strict regulations. Due to contract they cant do much modification on the airframe. Aerodynamics is not that important since it is OK for the next 10~15 years. But no permission to public blueprints/source code means hardly to find help from third party for avionics. I suspect thats the reason to introduce SU-30MKKs, for more technology transfer and licenses.
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I heard that the Chinese make their own engines now. They are also bound to have some advanced avionics that they "developed" (meaning the Israelis gave away F-16 tech) through the J-10 program. I also heard something about the Chinese developing their own radar, is this true? And if so would they use it in their own fighters (J-11, J-10, ect...)?
Yes, but that's an American radar.UAE also has AESA's on their F-16's .
Elta & Selex are also offering AESA fighter radars for export at the moment, & Thales would be happy to sell anyone an AESA fighter radar quite soon if the customer paid for accelerated development. Or they can wait a bit until the French government financed development has finished.and the Russians are already offering their AESA for export though they have not used it themselves.
Everyone would love a deal like the UAE F-16 one, where the customer paid for development of an AESA radar. Money is the main constraint for the Europeans, Israelis & Russians.
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- #10
Money isn't a constraint?! Maybe for the Europeans but as for the Russians they do have lots of financial problems but they're done developing an AESA. As for the Israelis, they're not even developing one for jet fighters. And if you say that the Israelis don't have money constraints then you're lying to yourself they're military's very existence is dependent on US charity.Money is the main constraint for the Europeans, Israelis & Russians.
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- #11
srry read your post wrong swerve.Money isn't a constraint?! Maybe for the Europeans but as for the Russians they do have lots of financial problems but they're done developing an AESA. As for the Israelis, they're not even developing one for jet fighters. And if you say that the Israelis don't have money constraints then you're lying to yourself they're military's very existence is dependent on US charity.
They are: the EL/M-2052.... As for the Israelis, they're not even developing one for jet fighters. ....
yeah, they are offering something that's in prototype stage. Why would China even want something like that? Even China has something in prototype stage.UAE also has AESA's on their F-16's and the Russians are already offering their AESA for export though they have not used it themselves.
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- #14
The Russian AESA is probably going be ready for service by the end of the year. They've already fitted it to the MiG-35 (which it self is ready for export) and have been advertising it in various air shows to show its ready for production.yeah, they are offering something that's in prototype stage. Why would China even want something like that? Even China has something in prototype stage.
can you plz tell us more about the Chinese AESA?
The Russian AESA is probably going be ready for service by the end of the year. They've already fitted it to the MiG-35 (which it self is ready for export) and have been advertising it in various air shows to show its ready for production.
nvm, jz get back to J-11
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- #16
Can anyone tell me why the J-11 has a service ceiling of 62,000 ft. while the Su-27 has a 60,000 ft. and somehow that number goes down again for more advanced Su-30's and Su-35 (58,000 ft.). Isn't this a major disadvantage in battle? F-22 pilots said they're higher altitude advantage in Red Flag was a major advantage and was a contributing factor to their only 1 loss record.
No, it's not. They finally got a working prototype, that's it. It's not ready for mass production. They don't have the capability to mass produce gallium arsenide. There is a huge difference between starting to test it and ready to export it on a mass basis.The Russian AESA is probably going be ready for service by the end of the year. They've already fitted it to the MiG-35 (which it self is ready for export) and have been advertising it in various air shows to show its ready for production.
can you plz tell us more about the Chinese AESA?
I dont know for sure but it may be due to higher/lower NTOW.Can anyone tell me why the J-11 has a service ceiling of 62,000 ft. while the Su-27 has a 60,000 ft. and somehow that number goes down again for more advanced Su-30's and Su-35 (58,000 ft.). Isn't this a major disadvantage in battle? F-22 pilots said they're higher altitude advantage in Red Flag was a major advantage and was a contributing factor to their only 1 loss record.
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- #19
I actually think it's kind of stupid of them to spend so much money on those planes when they have a bad cockpit design, last for less 3,500 hrs.(American F-15C's last 5,000 hrs. w/o upgrades-8,000 hrs. w/upgrades) and have engines that can not go a week with out some kind of major problem.
What bad cockpit design? The J-11B has four MFDs. It uses a wide angle 3D holographic HUD. There is only two other aircraft I know that has this, the Rafale and the F-22. The sensors include an optical/UV missile approach warning system, which is a first for any Flanker.
The airframe is designed to last for 10,000 flight hours. Check recent Jane's issue. The engines are meant at least for 1500 flight hours before overhaul, which is 50% more than the standard series 3 AL-31F. The early batches of AL-31F were lasting only up to 750 hours.
The engines produce 13,200kg of thrust over the standard 12,500, and the use of composite and lightweight materials reduced the net weight of the plane by 700kg. That's 1400kg of extra thrust total with 700kg of weight reduction. That's probably the reason why the plane can fly slightly higher then the standard Flanker.
The airframe is designed to last for 10,000 flight hours. Check recent Jane's issue. The engines are meant at least for 1500 flight hours before overhaul, which is 50% more than the standard series 3 AL-31F. The early batches of AL-31F were lasting only up to 750 hours.
The engines produce 13,200kg of thrust over the standard 12,500, and the use of composite and lightweight materials reduced the net weight of the plane by 700kg. That's 1400kg of extra thrust total with 700kg of weight reduction. That's probably the reason why the plane can fly slightly higher then the standard Flanker.