Can a 16 inch HE shell wreck havoc on newer ships?

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks for your input guys. Really appreciate the informative posts that have shed light on the viability of the BB in today's naval forces.

I wonder if there could some sort of a guided missile battleship, say the size of Yamato or bigger, equipped with multi mission VLS Tomahawks or SM cells along with the Phalanxs for out of range air ,land and CIWS kills, while still retaining the 16 or bigger 18 inch guns that could do a fire support job for short range kills. That's probably what i guess a emergency refit or reactivation of the Iowa will entail i suppose.

Technology has improved massively since they were last retired. I dont suppose guided shells and refined barrels could mitigate shot error greater than what the Iowa could muster before the advent of the tech age?

They could probably work in a CVG, if they were given the protection?

Cheers.
Cheaper and easier to run the SSGN's on - that's 154 missiles on tap, silent and deadly.

Look, the Iowas all use steam turbines and a bunch of other technology that's either out of service or hard to recruit for, the ships all would need to come out of the water and have their boilers replaced or serviced, and ideally have every seam on their keels rewelded if you were going to refit them and put them back to sea.

They have massive through life costs and don't do anything at all useful right now. They're done - none of those old ladies will turn a screw under their own power again.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Have been doing a little digging around, I had completely forgotten about the 155mm AGS. Are there any plans for placing AGS onto a modified AB DDG since the Zumwalts have been capped at 2 hulls

Also will the Zunwalts still see front line service or be held back as test beds?
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Have been doing a little digging around, I had completely forgotten about the 155mm AGS. Are there any plans for placing AGS onto a modified AB DDG since the Zumwalts have been capped at 2 hulls

Also will the Zunwalts still see front line service or be held back as test beds?
I don't believe there are any plans to retrofit the AGS onto the DDGs. I feel the Zumwalts will be deployed in theatre operationally and as a test bed for the next platform
 

Hipshooter

New Member
A 16 inch HC rounds from a modernized battleship would be devastating

Watching the naval engagement between Missouri and the alien mothership in Battleship
sparked a debate between me and a friend.

I for once dont believe that a 16 inch shell can do significant damage to newer ships such as the Zumwalt or the Gerald R Ford class supercarrier

Sure it may do some damage.. but will there be terminal waterline damage if say, a 16 inch shell were to be fired from the Iowa or the Missouri against newer ships ?
IN BRIEF

A 16" inch shell striking any modern warship would do huge damage and a single 1900lb HC shell airburst above the superstructure of most modern warships would have the potential to mission kill it. A full nine gun broadside of 1900 LB HC shells airburst above the deck of a super carrier such as a Ford or Nimitz would destroy the ability of the carrier to launch planes and would produce hundreds of casualties, including much of the command staff. Further even a 1900 LB HC rounds (actually it was considered to be semi armor piercing) could penetrate the deck of carrier, exploding in the hanger of a carrier.

Regarding the $4 billion dollar plus, 14000 ton Zumwalt, it is not a very tough ship and single broadside from a battleship would rip it to shreds, likely killing or injuring most of it ridiculously small crew. It's defense is built around it being stealthy and not getting hit. Its small crew is incapable of performing the kind of ship saving damage control that a properly crewed ship is capable of doing. However, some have conjectured it will make a nice technology demonstration platform. A huge waste of critical defense dollars that could have been far better on just about anything.

If you are in range of 16'" guns, especially those firing precision guided rounds, you are going to be in a world of hurt as the combination of explosive and kinetic energy from such rounds is devastating.

IN A BIT MORE DETAIL

Today's ships are designed with a different mindset than ships of the World War II era. We believe, I believe mistakenly, that we can control the terms of future engagements such that we will be able to destroy the enemy before they can engage us - and failing that we will be able to destroy or evade incoming missiles torpedoes, etc. that this has been the case when facing vastly inferior opponents/Navies has lulled us into a false sense of security. I believe if our cold war with Soviets had gone hot our ships would have been takings lots of damage. (we still would have won, but we would have lost ships) Likewise a conflict with China's regionally powerful Navy and Air Force would put our ships at severe risk of taking damage. and being destroyed.

Since we have not had a shooting war with a peer competitor since WWII I believe it is a mistake, even arrogant, to presume we will be always controlling the terms of engagement.

Consequently, our base assumption that our ships are so sophisticated that we can avoid taking damaging hits is a mistake that has negatively influenced modern ship designs. Regarding what a 1900 LB 16" High Capacity Shell (BTW: it is also semi armor piercing) would do to a modern warships. Well against a Burke a single airburst over the superstructure would almost certainly mission kill the ship as it would destroy the Aegis phased array radar and other key sensors and communication. It would also would produce a lot of causalities including command staff. A single hit into the interior of a Burke would produce a lot of damage and casualties with the potential of mission killing the ship as well - depending on where it struck. Certainly a full broadside into a Burke would utterly devastate it with a good chance of sinking it outright.

Relative to WWII cruisers, our modern cruiser-sized destroyer s(i.e. DDG-51's) have thinner decks, thinner bulkheads, thinner lighter everything. Thus blast and fragment damage will penetrate more compartments than it would on older warships (that were also highly compartmentalized) that had thicker and stronger steel. In fact the STS steel used lavishly in WWII warship construction is actually tougher than the HY 80 that is sparingly used in modern warship construction to save weight as it has better ductility. Further STS is much tougher and vastly stronger than the DH36 steel that makes up the vast majority of steel used on modern warships such at the DDG-51 .

If the unlikely scenario were to occur that a modern supercarrier found itself in the range of a modern battleship with modern fire control and even precision guided rounds it would be a disaster for the carrier as a 9 round broadside of high explosive rounds air burst over the deck of a carrier would mission kill the carrier by endering the flight deck unusable. Of course that scenario would be highly unlikely as carriers are supposed to engage at ranges far beyond gun range. But we are merely addressing just how much damage a 16" gun could do if it was in effective range of a modern warship. The answer being it would be overwhelmingly devastating.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
IN BRIEF

A 16" inch shell striking any modern warship would do huge damage and a single 1900lb HC shell airburst above the superstructure of most modern warships would have the potential to mission kill it. A full nine gun broadside of 1900 LB HC shells airburst above the deck of a super carrier such as a Ford or Nimitz would destroy the ability of the carrier to launch planes and would produce hundreds of casualties, including much of the command staff. Further even a 1900 LB HC rounds (actually it was considered to be semi armor piercing) could penetrate the deck of carrier, exploding in the hanger of a carrier.

Regarding the $4 billion dollar plus, 14000 ton Zumwalt, it is not a very tough ship and single broadside from a battleship would rip it to shreds, likely killing or injuring most of it ridiculously small crew. It's defense is built around it being stealthy and not getting hit. Its small crew is incapable of performing the kind of ship saving damage control that a properly crewed ship is capable of doing. However, some have conjectured it will make a nice technology demonstration platform. A huge waste of critical defense dollars that could have been far better on just about anything.

If you are in range of 16'" guns, especially those firing precision guided rounds, you are going to be in a world of hurt as the combination of explosive and kinetic energy from such rounds is devastating.

IN A BIT MORE DETAIL

Today's ships are designed with a different mindset than ships of the World War II era. We believe, I believe mistakenly, that we can control the terms of future engagements such that we will be able to destroy the enemy before they can engage us - and failing that we will be able to destroy or evade incoming missiles torpedoes, etc. that this has been the case when facing vastly inferior opponents/Navies has lulled us into a false sense of security. I believe if our cold war with Soviets had gone hot our ships would have been takings lots of damage. (we still would have won, but we would have lost ships) Likewise a conflict with China's regionally powerful Navy and Air Force would put our ships at severe risk of taking damage. and being destroyed.

Since we have not had a shooting war with a peer competitor since WWII I believe it is a mistake, even arrogant, to presume we will be always controlling the terms of engagement.

Consequently, our base assumption that our ships are so sophisticated that we can avoid taking damaging hits is a mistake that has negatively influenced modern ship designs. Regarding what a 1900 LB 16" High Capacity Shell (BTW: it is also semi armor piercing) would do to a modern warships. Well against a Burke a single airburst over the superstructure would almost certainly mission kill the ship as it would destroy the Aegis phased array radar and other key sensors and communication. It would also would produce a lot of causalities including command staff. A single hit into the interior of a Burke would produce a lot of damage and casualties with the potential of mission killing the ship as well - depending on where it struck. Certainly a full broadside into a Burke would utterly devastate it with a good chance of sinking it outright.

Relative to WWII cruisers, our modern cruiser-sized destroyer s(i.e. DDG-51's) have thinner decks, thinner bulkheads, thinner lighter everything. Thus blast and fragment damage will penetrate more compartments than it would on older warships (that were also highly compartmentalized) that had thicker and stronger steel. In fact the STS steel used lavishly in WWII warship construction is actually tougher than the HY 80 that is sparingly used in modern warship construction to save weight as it has better ductility. Further STS is much tougher and vastly stronger than the DH36 steel that makes up the vast majority of steel used on modern warships such at the DDG-51 .

If the unlikely scenario were to occur that a modern supercarrier found itself in the range of a modern battleship with modern fire control and even precision guided rounds it would be a disaster for the carrier as a 9 round broadside of high explosive rounds air burst over the deck of a carrier would mission kill the carrier by endering the flight deck unusable. Of course that scenario would be highly unlikely as carriers are supposed to engage at ranges far beyond gun range. But we are merely addressing just how much damage a 16" gun could do if it was in effective range of a modern warship. The answer being it would be overwhelmingly devastating.
What do you think 8 Harpoon, Exocet or Russian or Chinese AShMs fired by a 4000t Frigate would do to a Battleship long before they got into the range of those guns. Or modern torpedos fired by a SSN which can outrun the vast majority of Battleships ever built. Yes a 16" gun would make a mess of a Zumwalt but it has to get close enough first. I saw a question on another forum "what are the uses for a modern day Battleship" very easy to answer "target practice".
Todays Armour is an effective anti missile defence system, defeat the threat before you get hit. Battleships couldn't handle the threat that air power presented 75 years ago how are they going to do it today.
 

M1Brams

Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #86
What do you think 8 Harpoon, Exocet or Russian or Chinese AShMs fired by a 4000t Frigate would do to a Battleship long before they got into the range of those guns. Or modern torpedos fired by a SSN which can outrun the vast majority of Battleships ever built. Yes a 16" gun would make a mess of a Zumwalt but it has to get close enough first. I saw a question on another forum "what are the uses for a modern day Battleship" very easy to answer "target practice".
Todays Armour is an effective anti missile defence system, defeat the threat before you get hit. Battleships couldn't handle the threat that air power presented 75 years ago how are they going to do it today.

Wonder if the installation of AA systems, such as the Phalanx and the SM VLS as mentioned in my previous post might help with that. As for outrunning torpedos, couldnt they look into more modern propulsion systems? While it serves a very limited role if any, i can't help but feel a modern Iowa would be of much more use than the Zumwalt, or should have been the Zumwalt especially in the naval fire support role, whether shelling inland or firing broadsides at enemy ships. Smart rounds would have boosted it tremendously as well as the potential idea of firing Ashm missiles out of its barrels just like the Lahat to extend kills from beyond the smart round's range


Although i have to agree that cost is an important factor sadly.

Still can't help but think that the excessive budget for something like the Zumwalt could have been better used for a ground up modern Iowa or a retrofitted one.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
You would have to start with rebuilding the ability to produce large calibre guns as no one as built anything bigger than 6in since the 40s. The factories and institutional knowledge is long gone. Than design a fully automatic turret to put those guns in, the big guns took dozens of sailers to man. You would have to produce a 16" shell with a range of 250 miles(400km)and a 90% hit probability to make it worth it.

The Yamato & Musashi had a huge amount of AA fitted, it didn't help them one bit.
The Battleship era is long over, there are far better and cheaper ways of doing the job. Those 16" guns firing looks spectacular and make a great big holes in the ground or ship and occasionally they even managed to hit what they were aiming at.

PS : Sorry i actually meant the SSNs can outrun most Battleships, modern torpedoes can outrun just about any Warship ever built, if fired within the CEZ.
 
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Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
People need to remember the battleships for what they were - products of their era. If you can't see that World War II in the Pacific put a definitive end to the era of the battleship as a primary capital ship and warfighting vessel, I'd suggest you're either lacking in knowledge or out of touch with reality.

I was going to elaborate on the example of a battleship encountering an Arleigh Burke or similar but there's really no point. Every few months someone shows up on here beating the battleship drum and every time the discussion is the same. Warfighting has changed. Remember the battleships fondly for what they were, but please don't conjure them into the present - it simply doesn't make sense, neither from an economic nor a capability perspective.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
You would have to start with rebuilding the ability to produce large calibre guns as no one as built anything bigger than 6in since the 40s.
Small quibble: 175mm & 203mm were built in the 1960s in the USA, & the USSR built 203mm guns until 1990.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Small quibble: 175mm & 203mm were built in the 1960s in the USA, & the USSR built 203mm guns until 1990.
Of course your correct Swerve i was only thinking about Naval guns at the time and forgot about land weapons and they are still building 155mm guns.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I didn't think about 155mm guns being more than 6", but you're right - though the difference is so small that I think you could have mocked me if I'd suggested it really mattered/

True that it was only land-based guns, though. What I meant, & perhaps should have said explicitly, was that the manufacturing of those land-based guns made it theoretically possible to make naval guns up 8" without having to recreate the capability to make the barrels.

But that's a very small quibble to your original statement.
 

Hipshooter

New Member
Watching the naval engagement between Missouri and the alien mothership in Battleship
sparked a debate between me and a friend.

I for once dont believe that a 16 inch shell can do significant damage to newer ships such as the Zumwalt or the Gerald R Ford class supercarrier

Sure it may do some damage.. but will there be terminal waterline damage if say, a 16 inch shell were to be fired from the Iowa or the Missouri against newer ships ?
Because the fuse in the rear of the Mark 8 "Super Heavy" 2700 lb. armor piercing shell was designed to be triggered on hitting the heavy armor of a WWII Battleship or at least a cruiser, the bursting charge would not even be activated upon striking today's lightly constructed, unarmored warships. For example, the maximum hull thickness on our Burke destroyers is under 1/2 inches and is non armor grade steel. Nothing in a Burke, including its LM2500 gas turbines, would provide much resistance to the Mark 8 shell and would not provide enough deceleration to activate the Mk 21 base detonating fuse. So all you would up end up with is a nice 16'' inch hole through the hull, decks, bulkheads, machinery and then depending on the entry angle, out the other side of the ship or the bottom . So a good chance the ship would survive that even if it did end up with a 16'' hole beneath the waterline.. Even the 1900 lb. semi-armor piercing, high capacity Mark 13 shell would stand a good chance of passing through most modern warships with having its explosive charge detonating, but if it did it would be devastating - a possible mission kill from a single shell for anything not a carrier or amphibious assault ship. Of course the high capacity round could also be set for airburst and in that case having it explode near the superstructure of a modern warship would be devastating - a likely mission kill. Further, it would certainly be easy to create 16" inch shells designed to maximize damage against today's lightly constructed unarmored warships. Additionally, 16" inch guns could fire sub-cap precision guided rounds out to 100 miles that that would be devastating to any modern warship for a fraction of the cost of a missile.
 
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oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Additionally, 16" inch guns could fire sub-cap precision guided rounds out to 100 miles that that would be devastating to any modern warship for a fraction of the cost of a missile.
Zombie thread.

And the missiles travelling in the other direction would have sunk the platform hundreds of miles earlier at a fraction of the cost of a battleship.

Zombie ships.

oldsig
 
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