British Army News and Discussion

[Jeneral2885]

Although Rapier units were air deployable whereas CAMM trucks will need to be brought ashore via an LCU. Although i'd like to think the replacement system is much more capable, more capable enough to make up for it.

How heavy is a CAMM unit versus a Rapier unit?

My previous post was regarding the Starstreak/HVM unit(s). Via a twitter discussion, they will grow in squadron size.

Btw, RobWilliams, your very first post contains mistakes regarding the ORBAT. I shan't post links but it's 3rd UK Division that will be the Reaction Force, with 1st UK Division holding the Adaptable Force, along with the (funnily nammed) Support Command. Then there's also the new Force Troops Command which feeds units to both 3rd and 1st. JHC yes remains, although there is a blurry line of command over 16 AA--3rd can still order 16AA and the rest of the helicopter force.

The ORBAT is roughly correct though down to Company or Platoon-wise there are changes (esp in the AF).

 

[Jeneral2885]

Status of D Squadron HCR?

Airborne elite force to lose a third of its troops - Telegraph

This news article may not exactly be correct but one part is what I've been wondering--

A squadron of armoured reconnaissance vehicles from the Household Cavalry Regiment, where Prince Harry is an officer, is also being reassigned

It refers to D Squadron the Household Calvary Regiment. Any one has news on its status in Army2020?

The last I find is this: UK and Italian forces conduct Exercise Eagle Eye 2013 - Army Technology

Where the Squadron is named.

 

[Astute]

The telegraph again , they just love reporting anything negative but if there's any truth in the report it will be a big lose as they form part of 16 airborne rapid reaction brigade which was our first response army spear head , so either it's blind less cost cutting again or there's restructuring going on towards the force 2020 planning :-/

 

[Jeneral2885]

The telegraph again , they just love reporting anything negative but if there's any truth in the report it will be a big lose as they form part of 16 airborne rapid reaction brigade which was our first response army spear head , so either it's blind less cost cutting again or there's restructuring going on towards the force 2020 planning :-/

I know most of their (Telegrph) info is dead wrong and long stated since last year or so. Except that fact that D Squadron HCR is no long within the operational command of 16 AA and it's status is unknown--unless someone knows where it is now?

That leaves the RM 3 Commando Brigade with a larger force--3 Commando units roatating, plus the Armoured Support Group. Vs 2 and 3 Para rotating and no organic armoured support.

(Is this long enough?)

 

[RobWilliams]

AFAIK D squadron is no longer part of 16 AAB but it's not clear what's happened to it, the troop reductions come from reforming the brigade into a formation with 3 parachute battalions at the core supported by AAC squadrons and a reduced number of support personnel (which is fine, regular infantry formations have been removed from the brigade and hence the support requirements have dropped).

 

[RobWilliams]

Looks like the UK has thrown out that we could deploy an armoured battlegroup to Eastern Europe for exercises as a "show of force" to Putin.

This "show of force" containing 25 Challanger 2s, 40 Warriers + artillery (AS-90 or GMLRS) + infantry totaling 1000 troops.

Britain offers tanks and 1,000 troops for Nato show of strength against Putin - Telegraph

Presumably we'll be picking up our 4 RoRo transports up for this one if it happens.

 

[FormerDirtDart]

Looks like the UK has thrown out that we could deploy an armoured battlegroup to Eastern Europe for exercises as a "show of force" to Putin.

This "show of force" containing 25 Challanger 2s, 40 Warriers + artillery (AS-90 or GMLRS) + infantry totaling 1000 troops.

Britain offers tanks and 1,000 troops for Nato show of strength against Putin - Telegraph

Presumably we'll be picking up our 4 RoRo transports up for this one if it happens.

I would think that trains are more likely than RoRo transports. 7th & 20th Armoured Brigades are sitting in Germany. And, nothing in the article specifically suggests the battlegroup would deploy from the UK.

 

[RobWilliams]

My bad, I keep reading about pulling back from Germany seeming to be the 'big thing' so thought they'd be back, for some reason.

 

[FormerDirtDart]

My bad, I keep reading about pulling back from Germany seeming to be the 'big thing' so thought they'd be back, for some reason.

From the MoD basing plan released last year, the 20th Arm won't be fully moved back before 2017, while 7th Arm's units will be returning over the next year or so. But, 7th Arm's former tank battalion, Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, have already relinquished their Challenger 2's for Jackals, and assumed a light cavalry role.

 

[Waylander]

Which is a shame. The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards are an amalgation rich of history with lots of excellent tanking from WWII to operations Granby and Telic.

 

[Phd8511]

Which is a shame. The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards are an amalgation rich of history with lots of excellent tanking from WWII to operations Granby and Telic.

I'm not certain but it could be either due to 1) manning levels or 2) secret punishment for the Scots (indef referendum) that caused them to "kick" the CR2s out of the RSDGs.

 

[Phd8511]

AFAIK D squadron is no longer part of 16 AAB but it's not clear what's happened to it, the troop reductions come from reforming the brigade into a formation with 3 parachute battalions at the core supported by AAC squadrons and a reduced number of support personnel (which is fine, regular infantry formations have been removed from the brigade and hence the support requirements have dropped).

D Squadron still exists. This I know. it is not fine when comparing 16AA's strength to that of 3 Commando Brigade both which are reaction force elements.

 

[Phd8511]

D Squadron still exists that's all I will say. It is sad that 16AA is smaller in size compared to 3 Commmando, excluding 43 Commando.

 

[RobWilliams]

Lots of news from a while ago which I didn't get around to posting about.

The British Army is to send troops to train on CAESAR (French 155mm wheeled artillery) and the 8x8 VBCI armoured vehicle as part of the Lancaster House agreements.

According to the French MOD, 19 VBCI and 2 CAESAR will be made available for the British Army for up to 6 months. The former taking part as part of the FRES UV (Utility vehicle) program and the training on CAESAR will be the first steps in a "sweeping" review of artillery systems and British requirements from mortars, guided missile systems and typical artillery.

British Army to trial VBCI - IHS Jane's 360
Artillery Experiment Shows Deepening UK-French Ties | Defense News | defensenews.com

VBCI participated in the last UV competition and was rejected on a number of positions but these problems have since been corrected. These include the ability to replace the powerpack in the field, an increased maximum weight of 32t (up from 29t due to a new suspension system) with other improvements include "fourth-axle steering, a repositioned fuel tank, upgraded cooling and engine performance, and small hull reconfigurations to increase the vehicle's internal volume."

This lead people to believe that it meant it would effectively be fast-tracked into UK service in the name of Anglo-Franco jointery, but Dunne (Minister for defence equipment, support and technology) saying it would need to still compete to be chosen officially.

 

[RobWilliams]

The UK finally put down an order for FRES SV, £3.5 billion for 589 vehicles in 6 variants.

245 turreted Scout vehicles with the 40mm CTA turret developed by Lockheed Martin UK. These will be 189 recce and strike variants destined for the armoured cavalry, 23 Joint Fire Control variants which will be used for forward artillery observers with specialised equipment and 24 Ground Based Recce variants with 'man portable radar'.

The rest come under the Protected Mobility Recce Support (PMRS) variant which is turretless, these are broken down as follows. 59 APC vehicles, 112 command and control variants, 34 'formation reconnaissance over watch' vehicles and 51 engineering reconnaissance vehicles.

There's another 88 engineering vehicles which are split up to 38 repair vehicles and 50 recovery.

http://www.janes.com/article/42681/uk-places-gbp3-5-billion-scout-sv-order
http://www.defensenews.com/article/...l-Dynamics-UK-Wins-Scout-SV-Deal-From-Britain

At least the order has been made and by all accounts the product is meant to be quite a good vehicle and still transportable via A400M.

The formation recce over watch vehicles are expected to be using dismounts with Javelin.

 

[Waylander]

I am really happy for the Brits to get these new vehicles, they surely waited long enough. And they seem to come at a reasonable price, too.

The 40mm looks like a good gun and together with the upgraded ASCOD chassis should be a potent combination, especially with the Brits tending to push their scouts into lots of fire support missions.

I inly do wonder about the overwatch vehicle. IMHO adding ATGMs to the turreted vehicles would have been a better idea. Makes them more versatile while being able to perform the AT overwatch role in addition to their other roles.

Especially with Javelin having a rather small range for usage in the overwatch role. 2.5km is not all that much considering that the overwatch element usually hangs back a bit.

 

[RobWilliams]

It's good to finally see an order put down. The turreted Scout versions certainly appear in the 3 Armoured Infantry brigades with 3 sabre squadrons with 16 per squadron plus command/recce vehicles.

Hopefully the 40mm CTA turret works as advertised, it's a big deal to get right as it's part of the Warrior CLIP.

About ATGMs, it's not really been our thing to mount them on vehicles (except Striker) but recently we know that a Royal Artillery units have been using SPIKE NLOS in Afghanistan and the weapon system is being brought into the core budget, but there's still significant amounts of restriction on news of it being used in Afghanistan so it's a no-goer.

AFAIK there has been a vehicle launched Javelin with a range of something like 4km in development and has done some test firing I think.

 

[bdique]

I inly do wonder about the overwatch vehicle. IMHO adding ATGMs to the turreted vehicles would have been a better idea. Makes them more versatile while being able to perform the AT overwatch role in addition to their other roles.

Since the overwatch SV isn't meant to be in the front fighting like an AFV, it would make more sense to remove the turret, freeing up space to store more Javelins.

 

[RobWilliams]

Over watch vehicle is a PMRS variant of the FRES SV project so is turretless by default so that's not a problem. The problem is the range of Javelin and I've been reading elsewhere the thoughts of someone who was in Iraq in '91 and he's fairly convinced about the importance of the capability of the vehicle (and I believe him), but he never outright said that the idea of Javelin equipped dismounts was *bad*. That leads me to believe that it's fine.

PMRS as standard has a .50 cal RWS with 2 crew and 4 passengers but I must emphasise these are envisaged to be used to support and deliver specialised troops around the battlefield and not to be a primary armoured troop mover, that's what Warrior is for (3 crew and 7 passengers).

The ultimate test to show if SV has worked will be if it is indeed transportable by A400M.

 

[Waylander]

I am also a bit intrigued by the idea of providing overwatch for highly mobile tracked recce AFVs by using dismounted ATGM-Teams.

Relocating is slower with such a setup.

As for Spike-NLOS. I am a huge fan of it but it's more of a high precision/high capability artillery support system than something with which one performs AT overwatch.

If one thinks that AT overwatch for recce assets is so important that one puts a specialized vehicle into service one might say that the combination of pure dismount ATGMs with medium range seems a bit strange.

Firefights by overwatch elements tend to be longer ranged.