Australian M1A1 Abrams technology

A

Aussie Digger

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With additional M1s, M88s etc.
Small extra buy of around 30 M1s should do it!

I still have doubts in my mind whether all tanks should be concentrated in a single Regiment when they will never deploy that way. I am unconvinced by arguments that it makes training better/easier. Surely it would be better to train the way you are likely to deploy!
The only problem with that is that "how" you deploy is dependant on many factors, not least of which is the likely threat you have to face.

I know I don't need to teach you to suck eggs, but as you say the need to train with units you are likely to deploy with, is a bit simplistic. How often has Australia deployed heavy armour since Vietnam?

1 Brigade forms Battlegroup "Tiger or Leopard" for virtually EVERY exercise it undertakes and assumes the very formations you advocate. As we already DO train that way largely, what benefit is there in duplicating training and support facilities for such a limited asset?

If training were conducted on that basis, heavy armour would seem to have VERY little role in our ORBAT...

The problem with combined arms formations as I see is it, is a reverse of the problem you raise. When LARGE battles have to be fought (as Army is predicated upon doing) the smaller units have to link together to form the larger units, again not having been trained to operate that way any longer. Army's philosophy of being ale to "come down" to peace-making provided they are trained for warfighting, seems applicable here...
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
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A little off topic AD, but did you see what happened the other day when the Ghan hit a road train? Imagine what might have been if say a sqn of brand new M1,s and a sqn of aslavs were onboard!:shudder
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Using M1s

Why hasn't the Australian Army seen greater use of tanks in its history? After all, the 'tank' was invented in South Australia!
(Note: the real reason the Royal Navy called the vehicles 'tank' is because it was an acronym for - Totally Awesome New Kit ;))

It seems to me the reason is one of logistics, not tactics. Australia has always had limited Defence logistic capacity for a country that depends on naval resources to get anywhere. This maybe corrected in future, but there is also ambiguity about what ADF may be committed to in future in terms of tactical/operational force.

As AD already mentioned this is unlikely to be a force larger then those sent to other historical conflicts such as Korea or Vietnam, so unlikely to call for anything larger then a squadron of tanks.
I think Canadians did send tanks to Korea, but they were supporting a larger infantry force (a brigade? from memory).

However in the age of peace-keeping we should not forget that future may change to one of war-making not through Australia’s choosing.
The last time this happened Australians found themselves in the role of 'rats', trapped by Rommel's armoured forces. It would have been nice to have tanks of our own in North Africa.

Cheers
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Of 'big men on big horses' :)

Thanks for answer. A discussion about 3 o 4 troop squadron between Canadian soldiers:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,54588.0/all.html
Thanks for the link....interesting discussion.

What it is particularly interesting for in view of the tradition that armour units in Commonwealth countries use cavalry terms to describe their formations, is that they rarely mention cavalry!

A tank is just a really sophisticated version of the cuirassier.
The AUSLAV is actually a very sophisticated version of the hussar/lancer.
IFV mounted infantry are just the 'new dragoons'.

When one thinks of the debates in these simpler terms it readily becomes apparent that there is no debate.
Cavalry regiments during the horse era were used to perform specific tactical manoeuvres to achieve specific results. The choices were limited.
Cuirassiers were rarely used as independent squadrons, in part because they were habitually short on men and horses.
Light cavalry didn't begin to perform in close order until armies started to run out of 'battle' cavalry during the Napoleonic wars. Their successes in countering 'battle' cavalry are noteworthy if only for their rarity.
Most of the cavalry tactical work was done by dragoons. The most versatile part of the cavalry arm, they were good for mounted and dismounted combat; were economical to equip, and did not require specially selected mounts.

Interestingly enough Australia never fielded ‘cuirassiers’ which, where they existed, had become just another type of mounted infantry. The same fate betook the flashy hussars and lancers.
Australian cavalry had always been Mounted Rifles, even the Lancer regiments.

So it comes down to ‘dragoon’ tactics really as I see it, because ‘cuirassier’ tactics are really in the Cold War Central Europe league well outside of Australian needs or wants.

From this perspective every ‘dragoon’ regiment had their ‘grenadiers’, and it seems to me that although Australian Army regiments may want to perpetuate their historical legacy, in terms of tactics the tanks will always remain in just such ‘grenadier’ role as AD points out above.

From this, the conclusion seems fairly obvious to me. To achieve tactical objectives, a given unit assumes a tactical formation appropriate to the mission just as they have always done. Where the tank ‘grenadiers’ deploy within the ‘dragoon’ troops and squadrons will always be dictated by the CO and not those making decisions on the equipment purchase, and given historical knowledge, there will never be enough of either ‘dragoons’ or ‘grenadiers’, or ‘lancers’ for that matter.

It seems to me then that the debate over size of this troop is immaterial, and the Army approach to training is the right one given Australian doctrine.

From this very simplified perspective it does however become very clear that what the Australian Army really needs is ‘horse’ artillery, and that is also in the 'works'.

However of far greater concern is the adequacy of 'mounts' for the Australian 'mounted rifles'. It seems to me this was realised 20 years ago through Whaler.....

Cheers
 

Waylander

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Yes, but Bundeswehr armoured trops are but a shaddow of their former Cold War self!
This is right.
But this has nothing to do with a discussion about how platoons/squadrons/companies/etc can be designed.

The fighting capability of a german tank btl remains the same (Or higher because of upgrades) even if their number is tiny.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
The problem with combined arms formations as I see is it, is a reverse of the problem you raise. When LARGE battles have to be fought (as Army is predicated upon doing) the smaller units have to link together to form the larger units, again not having been trained to operate that way any longer. Army's philosophy of being ale to "come down" to peace-making provided they are trained for warfighting, seems applicable here...

There is virtually no longer, any need to train forces at greater than Battalion level. War fighting beyond that level is an issue of command and control which can be practised using simulation. You don't actually have to move three Battalions around each other, on the ground, to let a Brigadier practise commanding a Brigade. You do have to let Platoons/Companies/Battalions practise assaults to learn what is involved.
If the Abrams is deployed, it will probably be deployed as a Squadron sized group in support of an Infantry Battalion. 5/7RAR is the only Infantry Battalion which actually REGULARLY trains with tanks.
If, for example, 1RAR was deployed with a tank Squadron in support, most Infantry Platoon LTs would have no actual experience of operating with tanks and only theoretical knowledge of tank/Infantry co-operation.
YET THAT IS THE EXACT WAY THE ABRAMS WILL PROBABLY BE USED!

Attaching a tank Squadron to each of 3 Brigade and 7 Brigade would force the tankers in those Squadrons and the Infantry to focus on using Australian tanks in the way they will likely be employed.
The existing three tank Squadrons in 1 AR could remain as they are with their emphasis on Mechanised warfare.

The USMC tank units focus on troop(platoon) level operations in support of Infantry Companies/Battalions.
That should be our focus as well, with Squadron level and above operations, of secondary importance.
 
A

Aussie Digger

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There is virtually no longer, any need to train forces at greater than Battalion level. War fighting beyond that level is an issue of command and control which can be practised using simulation. You don't actually have to move three Battalions around each other, on the ground, to let a Brigadier practise commanding a Brigade. You do have to let Platoons/Companies/Battalions practise assaults to learn what is involved.
If the Abrams is deployed, it will probably be deployed as a Squadron sized group in support of an Infantry Battalion. 5/7RAR is the only Infantry Battalion which actually REGULARLY trains with tanks.
If, for example, 1RAR was deployed with a tank Squadron in support, most Infantry Platoon LTs would have no actual experience of operating with tanks and only theoretical knowledge of tank/Infantry co-operation.
YET THAT IS THE EXACT WAY THE ABRAMS WILL PROBABLY BE USED!

Attaching a tank Squadron to each of 3 Brigade and 7 Brigade would force the tankers in those Squadrons and the Infantry to focus on using Australian tanks in the way they will likely be employed.
The existing three tank Squadrons in 1 AR could remain as they are with their emphasis on Mechanised warfare.

The USMC tank units focus on troop(platoon) level operations in support of Infantry Companies/Battalions.
That should be our focus as well, with Squadron level and above operations, of secondary importance.
There is unlikely to ever be a "rapid" deployment of heavy armour, simply because it's in-efficient to move them by air (our C-17's will have MANY taskings to achieve and lifting C-17's seem like a waste).

The usual pre-deployment training and "workups" would be enough to get the "light infantry" / tank platoons working together well...
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
This is right.
But this has nothing to do with a discussion about how platoons/squadrons/companies/etc can be designed.

The fighting capability of a german tank btl remains the same (Or higher because of upgrades) even if their number is tiny.
Yes, true. Sorry for getting away from the thread.

Of course the strategic and operational environment has changed substantially for Germany.

They have not changed so substantially for Australia.
 

rickshaw

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Has anybody else noticed that the numbers of M1a1s purchased are in fact too few to engage in squadron sized training? When one takes into account the numbers which will be in workshops, being moved to and from Darwin, being held at Armour Centre for crew training, etc. you end up with insufficient to train a full squadron.
 

Waylander

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Go to the US for training.
Should not be a big problem (But might be not a cheap solution).
 
A

Aussie Digger

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Has anybody else noticed that the numbers of M1a1s purchased are in fact too few to engage in squadron sized training? When one takes into account the numbers which will be in workshops, being moved to and from Darwin, being held at Armour Centre for crew training, etc. you end up with insufficient to train a full squadron.
Damn, someone should point that out to the RAAC!!! I'll bet they never even considered that.

This is one of THE most ridiculous comments I've think I've seen here. Do you think the RAAC and Defence Capability Investment Committee staff are stupid however? Do you think that they gave NO consideration to Squadron size numbers and the number of vehicles required to develop an operational capability, or do you think Government just plucked the number "59" (the number of tanks Army bought) out of thin air?

Prior to EACH and every exercise, "cars" will be worked upon and made ready for said exercise. Does this mean that EACH Squadron is permanently equipped with it's entire allotment of vehicles ALL the time? Of course not.

Large scale exercises ARE a different matter however. 1 Armd like EVERY other Regiment or Battalion in the Army has a training plan. Maintenance periods are scheduled around them and if a Squadron is to conduct "Squadron" level exercises, then they will be ready for it. I remember deploying to Shoalwater Bay at times, with only 3 out of 6 cars being available for the exercise. The training activities can still largely be completed however and the "readiness" of the M1A1 will be far greater than the M113's are...

1 Armd has it's allotment of tanks and School of Armour has it's. Why would the School have 1 Armd's vehicles? It's got 18 of it's own (less probably because ALTC will have a few, but pretty close)...
 

Waylander

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Aaah, the lovely stealing from other companies for working tanks. :D

There is nothing better than using a tank from another unit and bring it back dirty. ;)

I totally agree with AD.
Bigger events can be practiced in the US and the normal training duty should be nor problem within the units.
I think many people woould be surprised with what a mix of vehicles most units go to training areas which do not belong to them.
 

eckherl

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Aaah, the lovely stealing from other companies for working tanks. :D

There is nothing better than using a tank from another unit and bring it back dirty. ;)

I totally agree with AD.
Bigger events can be practiced in the US and the normal training duty should be nor problem within the units.
I think many people woould be surprised with what a mix of vehicles most units go to training areas which do not belong to them.
Fort Irwin California is the perfect place, up to a brigades worth of tanks for desert training, and you get to fight against real opfor vehicles to.
 

eckherl

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Fort Irwin California is the perfect place, up to a brigades worth of tanks for desert training, and you get to fight against real opfor vehicles to.
Sorry - should of added these to my prior post, thought everyone might like to see these.
 

rickshaw

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Damn, someone should point that out to the RAAC!!! I'll bet they never even considered that.

This is one of THE most ridiculous comments I've think I've seen here. Do you think the RAAC and Defence Capability Investment Committee staff are stupid however? Do you think that they gave NO consideration to Squadron size numbers and the number of vehicles required to develop an operational capability, or do you think Government just plucked the number "59" (the number of tanks Army bought) out of thin air?
Well, actually, knowing the people I do and the history of defence procurement in Australia that I do, the numbers purchased were a compromise between that required and the budget that they could screw out of Treasury. While it would be nice to have an entire regiment of tanks for 1 Armd. to play with, its obvious with the purchase of 59 that they didn't get that. Then there must be consideration of the problems of training versus unit use and of course, location of workshops, movement to and from said workshops by vehicles (not sure how they are going to manage that one BTW, when one considers that the main workshops are at Pucka and Bandi).

When they purchased the Leopards, one of the major arguments against the purchase of the M60, which was Treasury's preferred option, was that buying the required number for 1 Armd Regt. and School of Armour was not possible, unless the M60s were purchased in two lots (and would, as a consequence be very different because of the US Army's procurement plans). So, they bought a joblot of Leopards, all in one go (and gone done over by Krause Maffei in the process BTW). 59 M1a1s might barely allow them to keep one squadron operational, if they are lucky IMO.

Prior to EACH and every exercise, "cars" will be worked upon and made ready for said exercise. Does this mean that EACH Squadron is permanently equipped with it's entire allotment of vehicles ALL the time? Of course not.
Depends. They should be. Appears to me and I suppose I could be rather naive but having your tank crew running around in a big cardboard box shouting out, "clank, clank, clank, BOOM!" might be an adequate substitute for crew and vehicle training but it rather rankles with the diggers in my limited experience. Most other armies, well, first world ones at least, tend to provide their units with sufficient numbers for them to be, well, units, I suppose. :lol:

Large scale exercises ARE a different matter however. 1 Armd like EVERY other Regiment or Battalion in the Army has a training plan. Maintenance periods are scheduled around them and if a Squadron is to conduct "Squadron" level exercises, then they will be ready for it. I remember deploying to Shoalwater Bay at times, with only 3 out of 6 cars being available for the exercise. The training activities can still largely be completed however and the "readiness" of the M1A1 will be far greater than the M113's are...
I'd hope so, considering the disparities in age between the two vehicles!

I wonder, should we be tailoring our procurement plans to our training plans or our training plans to our procurement outcomes?

1 Armd has it's allotment of tanks and School of Armour has it's. Why would the School have 1 Armd's vehicles? It's got 18 of it's own (less probably because ALTC will have a few, but pretty close)...
So, how many vehicles do you reckon 1 Armd will have in reality?
 

rickshaw

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Fort Irwin California is the perfect place, up to a brigades worth of tanks for desert training, and you get to fight against real opfor vehicles to.
Problem is they still think they're fighting the Cold War, all their vehicles are either fUSSR or WarPac and they act like they're Russian or WarPac. While the levels of realism are high there, if we're to spend the amount of money it'd cost to hire the training centre (and I can bet your bottom dollar, Uncle Sam won't let us use it for free, either), then we should be training against people who use a mix of equipment and don't think they're Russians.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Problem is they still think they're fighting the Cold War, all their vehicles are either fUSSR or WarPac and they act like they're Russian or WarPac. While the levels of realism are high there, if we're to spend the amount of money it'd cost to hire the training centre (and I can bet your bottom dollar, Uncle Sam won't let us use it for free, either), then we should be training against people who use a mix of equipment and don't think they're Russians.
Considering most of the vehicles you will go up against will be Russian in origin what's the problem? Tactics have changed to face GWOT. It depends on what op setting they are conducting.
 

rickshaw

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Considering most of the vehicles you will go up against will be Russian in origin what's the problem? Tactics have changed to face GWOT. It depends on what op setting they are conducting.
Big assumption and one I'd suggest which could be mistaken. Our nearest neighbour uses a mix of Western and East European equipment - not that I seriously consider them much of a threat and our most likely regional threat, uses primarily indigeniously designed and produced equipment. Much more importantly, neither uses Soviet or WarPac era tactics.
 

Big-E

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Big assumption and one I'd suggest which could be mistaken. Our nearest neighbour uses a mix of Western and East European equipment - not that I seriously consider them much of a threat and our most likely regional threat, uses primarily indigeniously designed and produced equipment. Much more importantly, neither uses Soviet or WarPac era tactics.

So go train with Singapore... oh wait, you train Singapore. We are all you have left. Go train with an MEU, that should serve you well with your force size.
 
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