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Aussie Digger
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- #21
Okay, point taken. How about, "one of the most capable frigates in the world"?seantheaussie said:If you exclude F-100, F-124, LCF which are apparently frigates
Here's a multi question/point post - feel free to comment on whichever bit/s interests you.
I believe that the RAN FFGs still mount the mark 5 76mm canon? These are an older OTO Melara mount. Does anyone know what ammunition types the RAN uses in them? Are they considered a viable anti air weapon, has any part of the current FFG ugrade been associated with the 76mm or its firing system?
The ANZAC upgrade is supposed to include some form of very short range missile system. Mistral being touted as the most likely. I'm guessing because of cost, as the only other system considered (as far as I have read) was RAM, which I suspect is the more expensive (well it is american after all).
Anyone care to comment on Mistral vs RAM? Were there any RAM proponents in the RAN?
So FFG has Standard and ESSM, ANZAC has ESSM and Mistral, both have Phalanx (I think), why no Mistral for FFG?
What flavour of Phalanx does the RAN currently have, Block 1B Phalanx Surface Mode (PSUM) or later?
cheers
rb
I believe that the RAN FFGs still mount the mark 5 76mm canon? These are an older OTO Melara mount. Does anyone know what ammunition types the RAN uses in them? Are they considered a viable anti air weapon, has any part of the current FFG ugrade been associated with the 76mm or its firing system?
The ANZAC upgrade is supposed to include some form of very short range missile system. Mistral being touted as the most likely. I'm guessing because of cost, as the only other system considered (as far as I have read) was RAM, which I suspect is the more expensive (well it is american after all
).Anyone care to comment on Mistral vs RAM? Were there any RAM proponents in the RAN?
So FFG has Standard and ESSM, ANZAC has ESSM and Mistral, both have Phalanx (I think), why no Mistral for FFG?
What flavour of Phalanx does the RAN currently have, Block 1B Phalanx Surface Mode (PSUM) or later?
cheers
rb
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Aussie Digger
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- #24
The FFG's still operate their original 76mm guns and ammo systems. No upgrades have been performed on the gun or it's fire control system. It is part of the air defence system and anti-air ammo types are carried.rossfrb_1 said:Here's a multi question/point post - feel free to comment on whichever bit/s interests you.
I believe that the RAN FFGs still mount the mark 5 76mm canon? These are an older OTO Melara mount. Does anyone know what ammunition types the RAN uses in them? Are they considered a viable anti air weapon, has any part of the current FFG ugrade been associated with the 76mm or its firing system?
The ANZAC upgrade is supposed to include some form of very short range missile system. Mistral being touted as the most likely. I'm guessing because of cost, as the only other system considered (as far as I have read) was RAM, which I suspect is the more expensive (well it is american after all
Anyone care to comment on Mistral vs RAM? Were there any RAM proponents in the RAN?
So FFG has Standard and ESSM, ANZAC has ESSM and Mistral, both have Phalanx (I think), why no Mistral for FFG?
What flavour of Phalanx does the RAN currently have, Block 1B Phalanx Surface Mode (PSUM) or later?
cheers
rb
The EW kit HAS been upgraded, though I can't remember the specifics of it off hand. FFG's have SM-1 (to be upgraded to Sm-2 Block IIIA standard over the next few years) ESSM and Block 1A Phalanx CIWS. (ie: no surface mode). No short ranged SAM is planned beyond ESSM for the FFG's. Some of the FFG's have been upgraded with "mini-typhoon's" added to their existing 0.50cal HMG's, to assist in the anti-surface role and close in protection of the vessel. This is to be extended to ALL FFG's and ANZAC class over time.
RAN ANZAC frigates do not mount Phalanx CIWS. ESSM is all they have at present (most of them at least, some still have Seasparrow)... Eventually all ANZAC"s will have ESSM.
It is undecided as yet (publicly), whether or not a second short ranged SAM system will be acquired for the ANZAC class. Recent upgrades confirmed have include an IRST system for ALL ANZAC's and the CEA-FAR/CEA-MOUNT phased array radar systems to replace their existing SPS-49's. These upgrades will give the ANZAC's "multiple" channels of fire and additional SAM systems may not be needed if the new targetting systems are as effective as hoped. If this proves to be the case, hopefully the 2nd Mk 41 VLS system will be installed at least giving each vessel 64 ESSM's for their defence...
In FFG upgrade news, HMAS Sydney (first FFG-UP) is currently taking part in Exercise Ocean Protector. This is great news meaning the upgrade has gone well and finally overcome it's problems and is nearing operational capability. This will be a good boost for the RAN...
In not so good news, HMAS Warramunga (first ANZAC to be fitted with Harpoon II) appears to have it's Harpoon tubes removed with only the basic stands remaining. Perhaps the RAN is having difficulty with the installation of the Harpoon forward of the bridge? It has been 14 months since they were first installed and no other ANZAC frigate has yet been so equipped. Surely they would if there was no problems with this installation???
Thanks for that I was wondering what had happened there and could not believe we would remove EW sensors in lieu of a 50cal mount (although similar things have happened in the past).Aussie Digger said:
Is the fitting of the 25mm Typhoon tied to the second short range SAM or wouel these be fitted in any case. most of the post on this subject seem to treat this as a combined unit.Aussie Digger said:
It was suggested that top weight may be an issue with the radar upgrade and the original postion aft ofthe funnel being somewhat higher. On a side issue we were involved in some measurement issue with the ship and had the original GA drawings. I have to say the original proposal with Harpoon, CIWS, 2 channels and the addition VLS looked a good package. I also recognise that the delay has allowed access to more capable systems.Aussie Digger said:
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Aussie Digger
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The AWD's and the new Amphibious vessels are supposed to be fitted with a number of 25mm Typhoon gun systems per vessel to help provide close in protection against air and surface attack craft type threats (ie: USS Cole type attacks).rossfrb_1 said:
There has also been some talk the ANZAC's and FFG's will too, but it may only be "mini-typhoon" for these vessels.
I'm aware that the Typhoon system can have SAM or surface to surface missiles integrated with it, but I haven't heard that the ADF is interested in this capability...
I know the RAN had some problems with mounting Harpoon aft of the bridge (though other nations have done so on Meko 200 class frigates without apparent problem) but I was referring to the new position ie: where they've been mounted on Warramunga. Seems like there's still a problem...
Cootamundra
New Member
Excellent news on the Sydney front, I actually thought I saw a new FFG in the docks with its Mk13 removed looking like it was about to head into the graving dock for its upgrade. This was about two weeks ago when I went down for swim next door to Fleet base East. So one down, 3 to go.Aussie Digger said:
Unfortunately I've got no news on the Warramunga front, last picture I saw had the 8 tubes installed forward of the bridge (photo was from Talisman Sabre 05).
Cheers, Coota
Cootamundra
New Member
OK, quick search and ADI says that its HMAS Melbourne now in the dry dock.
http://www.adi-limited.com/newsdocs/2006221377.pdf
Cheers, Coota
http://www.adi-limited.com/newsdocs/2006221377.pdf
Cheers, Coota
As far as what is in the public domain, all I can find is mention ofAussie Digger said:
Navy Project 1874 - Development of FFG Mini-Typhoon installation design/installation.
Then there is mention of [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]HMAS Parramatta with such a mount[/FONT]
http://www.defence.gov.au/news/navynews/editions/4814/topstories/story02.htm
Having already installed these on some/all of the ANZACS, I can't see more $ being thrown at them to install 25mm mounts.
(Mini Typhoon is for 12.7/7.62/40mm grenade. - see link below)
http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/products/nav-typhoon.htmAussie Digger said:
RAN probably has Typhoon G (gun), not sure if this upgradeable to GS or GSA standard.
There are a lot of nations that have ships with the Mk 13 launcher firing SM-1MR missiles, not necessarily Perry class frigates. Since the US Navy has stopped supporting this missile, I wonder whether other nations will upgrade their ships? I know some of the nations have sold theirs to other smaller navies, but are these smaller navies going to upgrade their Mk13 systems too?
Since the SM-2ER missile is longer than the SM-1MR missile, how are the Aussies upgrading their Mk-13 system to handle the longer missile? Did the Mk-13 always have the length needed?
America is in the process of elimating their Mk13 launchers, literlly cutting them off at the deck level. I doubt whether America will bother to upgrade, preferring to buy new LCS ships.
Since the SM-2ER missile is longer than the SM-1MR missile, how are the Aussies upgrading their Mk-13 system to handle the longer missile? Did the Mk-13 always have the length needed?
America is in the process of elimating their Mk13 launchers, literlly cutting them off at the deck level. I doubt whether America will bother to upgrade, preferring to buy new LCS ships.
Cootamundra
New Member
The US won't need to upgrade with the new LCS coming along nicely and the DDX program picking up speed. I read somewhere that the newest OHP's in the USN will focus on ASW, so their Mk13 won't be needed.
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Aussie Digger
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- #33
We didn't buy the SM-2ER, we bought the SM-2 Block IIIA, which is being modifed to fire from a rail launcher instead of a VLS system, hence the reason they won't be operational until 2008/9.Sea Toby said:
Cheers.
http://www.defence.gov.au/news/navynews/editions/4722/topstories/story03.htmAussie Digger said:
"
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Harpoon added to the armoury[/FONT]
http://www.defence.gov.au/news/navynews/editions/4722/images/02-warra%20main_th.jpg
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]HMAS Warramunga has become the first Australian warship to have the harpoon surface-tosurface missile system installed.
The Anzac Class frigate has now been fitted with two quad-canister launchers that will hold eight Boeing RGM-84 harpoon anti-ship missiles fired using the new Advanced Harpoon Weapon Control System (AHWCS).
The RAN is only the second navy in the world to employ AHWCS, a system designed to launch the new Block II Land Attack Harpoon Missiles.
HMAS Warramunga will be testing the system installation this month by conducting the first-of-class firing, utilising a Blast Test Vehicle (BTV).
Once the installation has been proved, the harpoon missile system will be progressively fitted to all remain-ing Anzac Class ships and marks the beginning of a new level of capability for the RAN.
Other work completed in a recent refit included the fitting of the Air Weapons Magazine and the replacement of the Sceptre ESM suite with Centaur."[/FONT]
Can't actually spot a date for this article.
rb
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Warramunga begins first of class harpoon firings.[/FONT]
http://www.defence.gov.au/news/navynews/editions/4722/images/02-warramunga_th.jpg [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The new quad-canister launchers for the harpoon anti-ship missiles. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Photos: ABPH Joanne Edwards[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By LCDR Brett Bower and SBLT Jonathan Grimshaw[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]HMAS Warramunga has become the first Australian warship to have the harpoon surface-tosurface missile system installed.
The Anzac Class frigate has now been fitted with two quad-canister launchers that will hold eight Boeing RGM-84 harpoon anti-ship missiles fired using the new Advanced Harpoon Weapon Control System (AHWCS).
The RAN is only the second navy in the world to employ AHWCS, a system designed to launch the new Block II Land Attack Harpoon Missiles.
HMAS Warramunga will be testing the system installation this month by conducting the first-of-class firing, utilising a Blast Test Vehicle (BTV).
Once the installation has been proved, the harpoon missile system will be progressively fitted to all remain-ing Anzac Class ships and marks the beginning of a new level of capability for the RAN.
Other work completed in a recent refit included the fitting of the Air Weapons Magazine and the replacement of the Sceptre ESM suite with Centaur."[/FONT]
Can't actually spot a date for this article.
rb
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
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Aussie Digger
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- #36
Mate, that article is from December 2004, when Warramunga was first fitted with the Quad launchers and Harpoon II capability. As I pointed out in my post above, it has now been 15 months since Warramunga was fitted with Harp II, NO OTHER ANZAC frigate has yet been fitted with it, and Warramunga (in the most recent publicly available photo's (January 06) has had it's Harp II tubes removed and only the basic stands remain. Hence my remark earlier, that all does not seem to be going well with the ANZAC Harpoon II integration.rossfrb_1 said:
The placement of the Harp tubes in front of the bridge on the ANZAC was the less preferred option, due to it ruling out being able to place a Mk 41 VLS system or a CIWS there, AND the placement of the tubes there interferes with the firing of the chaff/flare launchers.
The ANZAC class could not mount the tubes behind the bridge (as was originally planned) though due to "top weight" issues, but seeing as though nearly every other MEKO user mounts them there and the placement benefits the ANZAC's gain by mounting them there, perhaps the RAN is re-thinking this issue, and this accounts for the delay?
Or perhaps the integration is going as planned and the tubes have been withdrawn for maintenance or something and it's just a typically lengthy process. Who knows? Perhaps GF can find out (or knows already) if he reads this?
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Aussie Digger
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- #38
The FFG's are only being upgraded to allow them to serve until our Air warfare destroyers arrive. They will be retired then. The ANZAC's are newly built frigates, with the last frigate yet to even be delivered to the RAN. Once their upgrades are completed, they'll be very capable light frigates, comparable to any other similar vessel in the world, Lafayettes included.KAPITAIN said:
I have NFI at the moment. Remember when the conversion was done I had a rant about how idiotic it was with tube placement and that the cables weren't even armoured or housed properly?Aussie Digger said:
I'm guessing that someone else came to the same conclusions.
Seems like a question for AMPT10E