Australia is not ready for war

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barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The subject seems to have moved to the shape of any increase in our forces in A'stan and our record so far in Iraq and A'stan. So I think will put my 2 cents worth forward here.

Since 2003 Aust Governments have taken a casualty averse approach to deploying the ADF. For example RAAF Hornets did not go downtown Baghdad, thus avoiding the "supermez" because the EW system was not "good enough". Thing is it was good enough for USMC Hornets, exact same system. Aust govt has played a "smart" game of seemingly politically "risky" deployments to placate our great and powerfull friend, but also kept those deployments on a tight leash to avoid messy and politically hurtfull casualties. The Horward Govt was quite skilled at doing this but the Rudd Govt has stepped up the rhetoric by berating our allies for not doing more when we are doing exactly the same thing! They are making us look like idiots in the eyes of our long time allies US, UK and Canada.

So the shape of any ADF increase in A'stan, as looks likely. I think an Infantry Battalion is a must with supporting SF, Armour, Artillery and wokka wokka's. Thats what the Army calls a combined arms team, right? The RAAF CRC deployment is due to end in 3-4 months, the numbers involved there are about the same required for a small detachment of Hornets, say 4-6. Recently I noticed that RAAF Hornets have been experimenting with what they call a "Goofy Load" configuration. Last time I saw that was late 2002 early 2003, just coincidence? ;)
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The RAAF CRC deployment is due to end in 3-4 months, the numbers involved there are about the same required for a small detachment of Hornets, say 4-6. Recently I noticed that RAAF Hornets have been experimenting with what they call a "Goofy Load" configuration. Last time I saw that was late 2002 early 2003, just coincidence? ;)

Do these "goofy loads" look anything like?

If not, any hints would be welcome, please...
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A Bn group would definatley be very effective in the Stan, particully useing the "fireforce" tactics employed by the RLI in the Rhodesian war.

3RAR used these tactics several times on ex, includeing K92. basiclly they revolve on SF pinpointing targets, and adviseing infantry units of vunerable times and exact location of the enemy, very fast reaction times are required, and the use of helo,s is a must. so the blackhawks would have to be deployed, as would 155 arty. but it would give RAINF valuable battle experience that they are just not getting, and contribute to the effort in Afghanistan.

SASR would need to remain in place, The Bn group could rotate through protection duties for the reconstruction task farce (force ;)) and still supply 2 ready reaction coy groups as well as support coy. it would be a win win situation for the ADF.
 

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Do these "goofy loads" look anything like?

If not, any hints would be welcome, please...
Not quite, a goofy load uses one of the wet stations as a weapon hard point. Stations 3, 5 and 7 are wet stations on classic Hornets. With a goofy load station 3 or 7 would have a weapon and the other two wet stations have jugs (Super Hornet has 5 wet stations). This config has been used by the USMC to free up a hardpoint for an extra weapon in Iraq and A'stan. The photo shows a VER with a JDAM and GBU, AFAIK you can't carry two GBU's on a VER (which was the case in 2003). They could certainly be fitted and carried in flight on a VER, the restriction must be related to the point of release. Maybe not enough space after weapon release for the tail fins to deploy?? I am unsure if a JDAM and GBU can be used on a VER. If VER's can be used in this way, with either two JDAMs or a JDAM and GBU per station it certainly improves the Hornets weapons carrying capability which was found lacking in 2003.
 

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A Bn group would definatley be very effective in the Stan, particully useing the "fireforce" tactics employed by the RLI in the Rhodesian war.

3RAR used these tactics several times on ex, includeing K92. basiclly they revolve on SF pinpointing targets, and adviseing infantry units of vunerable times and exact location of the enemy, very fast reaction times are required, and the use of helo,s is a must. so the blackhawks would have to be deployed, as would 155 arty. but it would give RAINF valuable battle experience that they are just not getting, and contribute to the effort in Afghanistan.

SASR would need to remain in place, The Bn group could rotate through protection duties for the reconstruction task farce (force ;)) and still supply 2 ready reaction coy groups as well as support coy. it would be a win win situation for the ADF.
Agree 100%, question is does Kev 07 and little Fitz have the gumption to commit??? Would also like to see the Abrams deployed as well.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Not quite, a goofy load uses one of the wet stations as a weapon hard point. Stations 3, 5 and 7 are wet stations on classic Hornets. With a goofy load station 3 or 7 would have a weapon and the other two wet stations have jugs (Super Hornet has 5 wet stations). This config has been used by the USMC to free up a hardpoint for an extra weapon in Iraq and A'stan. The photo shows a VER with a JDAM and GBU, AFAIK you can't carry two GBU's on a VER (which was the case in 2003). They could certainly be fitted and carried in flight on a VER, the restriction must be related to the point of release. Maybe not enough space after weapon release for the tail fins to deploy?? I am unsure if a JDAM and GBU can be used on a VER. If VER's can be used in this way, with either two JDAMs or a JDAM and GBU per station it certainly improves the Hornets weapons carrying capability which was found lacking in 2003.
Hmm, very interesting.

I was of the understanding that dual carriage and employment of JDAM from a single pylon, was possible from the Hornet, thanks to the BRU-55 being procured along with JDAM. I never knew that LGB's could be launched from the inside of the BRu-55. I've heard that the fins extending on weapons launch, tend to tear holes in the tanks, which is obviously not ideal...

This shot might have just been a PR shot, but it would be a useful capability to carry LGB/JDAM per pylon. Of course, RAAF could also splash out on Laser JDAM and carry 2x per pylon as well, but one can't have everything...

I've noticed that for dual carriage of LGB's on other tactical aircraft, a vertically staggered (or "slant" as some seem to call it) styled carrier is required.

These are seen lately on F-16 pics, around the place...
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
According to some sources, in absolute dollar terms, Australia's defence spending is ranked 13th and behind the following Asian powers:

(i) China (ranked 2nd)
(ii) Japan (ranked 6th)
(iii) India (ranked 9th)
(iv) S. Korea (ranked 12th)

The next Asian powers ranked behind Australia is spending are Taiwan (ranked at 21st), Pakistan (ranked at 23rd) and Singapore (ranked at 24th). BTW, I know spending is not a good way of ranking capabilities, but I think these numbers are a good starting point for discussion.

So when AD says Australia is 'p*ss weak', how are you guys comparing / measuring it? :)

I'm just a little curious, as I think despite their large conventional warfare capabilities of India and Pakistan, their armies are very ill equipped to deal with the current LIC type of security challenges that they face. So in a way, despite the numbers, they are not able to operate equally effectively at a different end of the conflict spectrum. OTOH, in terms of counting the number of soldiers, the ADF is very much smaller than all the countries listed above. It's force structure is not geared towards acting alone in massive conventional warfare (with say a country like Indonesia).

In fact, I continue to worry about LICs in Indonesia and the Philippines (where at least 17 persons were killed in April 2009), which to me is still war. To quote Frank Hoffman (JFQ, issue 52, 1stQ 2009), writing on 'Hybrid Warfare and Challenges':
'Tomorrow’s enemies will still get a vote, and they will remain as cunning and elusive as today’s foes. They may be more lethal and more implacable. We should plan accordingly.'​
I also share his view that our enemies will always get a vote and they will hit us where we are least prepared.

Since 2003 Aust Governments have taken a casualty averse approach to deploying the ADF. For example RAAF Hornets did not go downtown Baghdad, thus avoiding the "supermez" because the EW system was not "good enough". Thing is it was good enough for USMC Hornets, exact same system. Aust govt has played a "smart" game of seemingly politically "risky" deployments to placate our great and powerfull friend, but also kept those deployments on a tight leash to avoid messy and politically hurtful casualties...
AD and barra, thanks for the additional input on the Hornets issue and it certainly places the various news reports in their proper context.

The Horward Govt was quite skilled at doing this but the Rudd Govt has stepped up the rhetoric by berating our allies for not doing more when we are doing exactly the same thing! They are making us look like idiots in the eyes of our long time allies US, UK and Canada.
Do Australians generally support more Diggers in Afghanistan?

Is the Rudd Govt going to be trapped by its own rhetoric? As you said, there may be some preparations to send more fighting troops.

So the shape of any ADF increase in A'stan, as looks likely. I think an Infantry Battalion is a must with supporting SF, Armour, Artillery and wokka wokka's. Thats what the Army calls a combined arms team, right? The RAAF CRC deployment is due to end in 3-4 months, the numbers involved there are about the same required for a small detachment of Hornets, say 4-6.
If they send more, it is my hope that the participation will be structured in a way to enable the ADF to develop or polish its current capabilities.
 
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phreeky

Active Member
Do Australians generally support more Diggers in Afghanistan?
That's a tough question. IMO overall probably not, however I believe the opposite is true when you only consider those that would actually consider such issues at the voting booth (but I guess going any further into that is bordering on politics).
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
mismanaged

Australian defence and the ADF have been mismanaged by both the Labour and Liberal governments, and not just in terms of actual conventional warfare capability building, but the underlying national defence industry development that can support such capabilities as required by the strategic policy, and the organisational project management within the Defence community.

When compared to other similar national defence forces, in terms of conventional capabilities Australia's defence seems a shadow of a force, not really capable of performing significant strategic missions, barely capable of operational deployment, and only barely having the tactical force structure to engage in conventional warfare within the region.

Australia has been fortunate in that since the Second World War it has only been called upon to participate in low intensity conflicts where best deployment options suited well trained dismounted or partially mobile infantry as the primary means of conducting combat operations.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
When compared to other similar national defence forces, in terms of conventional capabilities Australia's defence seems a shadow of a force, not really capable of performing significant strategic missions, barely capable of operational deployment, and only barely having the tactical force structure to engage in conventional warfare within the region.
So, who in the "region" has a superior tactical force structure and why is ours, so obsolete?

Barely capable of operational deployment?

Er, I think you'll find we have somewhere in the vicinity of 12x declared operational deployments, running simultaneously...

What is a significant strategic mission? Does Timor count? What about the Solomans? Bearing in mind YOU said strategic.

What does TNCG mean to YOU at a "strategic" level?
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
So, who in the "region" has a superior tactical force structure and why is ours, so obsolete?

Barely capable of operational deployment?

Er, I think you'll find we have somewhere in the vicinity of 12x declared operational deployments, running simultaneously...

What is a significant strategic mission? Does Timor count? What about the Solomans? Bearing in mind YOU said strategic.

What does TNCG mean to YOU at a "strategic" level?
Part of the problem in answering these questions is that the Australian Governments never really had any idea of what the strategic role of the ADF is supposed to be when decoupled from the US defence policy. What should the ADF do as a means of projecting Australian national security policy even where there is no US support for it, or where support can not be provided due to a lack of capability? It seems that neither of these options were ever considered as part of security planning for a sovereign and independent national policy. Being a member of the ANZUS does not diminish the Australian Government's responsibility for just such a policy approach as a primary consideration.

The answer has always been that protecting Australian global economic links is the strategic mission of the ADF. Protecting Australia's territorial claims is the reason for ADF's existence, and need not even be written into the policy that seeks to underwrite sovereignty! Because Australian global economic links are quite obviously very different to the US economic links, clearly the reliance on the US to support keeping them open and not threatened has been the core hope of the ANZUS alliance. Can national security policies be really based on assumptions of everlasting good will and support? Home security is ultimately the responsibility of the owner, and not the Neighbourhood Watch or the Police Service. Right?

However, there are two big oceans out there, and the RAN has no capability to patrol, never mind control the shipping lanes should someone try to force their trade policy on ours. Control of large expenses of ocean require far more than a few frigates or robotic surveillance aircraft. The announcement that the RAN submarine fleet will be expanded to 12 boats should have been made in the 1990s at the latest. How these are going to be crewed is an entirely different matter when the RAN is struggling to crew all available boats now.

In any case, its about time the Australian political parties came clean with the public and explained that we are a maritime nation, and that we are therefore dependent on keeping maritime lanes of trade that assure our desired collective standards of living secure. This can not be done indefinitely with reliance on the USA, and at some stage we will have to take responsibility for our own national security.

The difficulty of exerting control and protecting shipping is being illustrated off the coast of Somalia now by rag-tag populations of pirates using nothing more than ramshackle fleet of rust buckets and inflatables. If such a campaign was initiated against Australian trade lanes in our region, could the RAN cope?

Control of sea can not be achieved with just frigates or the odd submarine since they lack the surveillance capability in a very large area of responsibility. The only way to exert this control is through use of carrier-born aircraft because control implies having an offensive capability with a fairly quick response time that neither the Global Hawk, nor the P-3 or the yet-to-fly P-8 will offer.

What I'm suggesting is that the RAN should be able to put into a potential naval combat area a balanced task force with the usual naval "combined arms" configuration used by other maritime nations. There is no reason that the RAN can't do this given other nations with similar defence expenditures can manage to deploy such task forces.

Operational deployment to me means moving sufficient force over required distance in required time to make a strategic difference. In a conventional warfare scenario with confronting any number of threats in the two-ocean region the best RAN can do now is a couple of frigates and a submarine on at best a week's notice (assuming Darwin station). Given the growth in regional naval forces, this is just not good enough any more. The unfortunate truth is that small rich populations are going to be increasingly seen as valid targets in a world of large poor populations, and we have three of some of the largest in the World in the region. Only a task force with organic logistic support can offer the sort of operational response required, given the strategic considerations above.

12x declared operational deployments? There is some confusion over the terms since the movement of an Army company by sea to Solomons is also an "operation" but it is not operational. All RANvessels are of course deemed to be operational when not undergoing work being done to them. East Timor was the last, and only second, RAN operational deployment since the Vietnam War.

East Timor does count as a strategic mission because essentially Australia is now underwriting Timor Leste's national security, and this means the increase in the potential confrontation with Indonesia, or any entity/s that it may evolve into in future.

The Solomons do not constitute a strategic mission because regardless of the changes in Solomons, or Australia's willingness to influence them, they will not create a significant impact on the Australian national security unless something drastic happens, like PRC commencing the building of a naval base in the Solomons.

Operation Catalyst is not strategic for the ADF since it is operating as part of a much larger force for which it is strategic. At best it can be considered 'strategic; in the sense that the ADF personnel are gaining valuable experience in operating within a strategic environment, but the role they play is tactical.

Operation Resolute is actually a part of what national navies do anyway! I don't even understand why it has an operation name because operations by definitions are sort of deployment projects, and not ongoing use of assets as mandated by the Australian Constitution. Is the Australian Government committed to ending Australia's Exclusive Economic Zone patrolling?

I think that above all the Australian Government must realise, and voice this realisation to the Australian public to garner political support, that the global strategic situation has in the recent few years changed dramatically, undoing the development in our region that took five centuries to evolve. The routes across the Indian and the Pacific are no longer just those of seeking out new markets by the Europeans, but also the means of competitors reaching the European, and now the US markets, a proposition that was never envisaged when the liberal economic theory was developed. Moreover, the major players in the new global economic trade are not even playing by the liberal economic rules. The creation of the NEW freight route and Central Asian overland options, and the projected reduction in dependence by the developed countries of the Northern hemisphere on West Asian oil will reduce the importance they attach to force projection in the Indian-Pacific region. The development of the P-4 may be a precursor to the realignment of regional trade routes. Australia will need to find own resources from which to secure its national well being in future.

Please enlighten me on what TNCG stands (for you) for as it seems to be new to me, and is not found elsewhere in Defence Talk forums, so I can't even get an idea of what it means had you had used it here before.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Home security is ultimately the responsibility of the owner, and not the Neighbourhood Watch or the Police Service. Right?
Wrong. Home security is the responsibility of the police. Any crime fighting activity is not to be done by local vigilates, but by professionals.

Now as to your idea, it definetly sounds good. Except that the US will (for the forseeable future) remain allied to Australia, and will continue to support your trade links. So tell me how the politicians that you mention should sell a huge military budget hike to the public in order to create capabilities currently provided by the presence of the US free of charge, and unlikely to ever be used or ever be necessary.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Wrong. Home security is the responsibility of the police. Any crime fighting activity is not to be done by local vigilates, but by professionals.

Now as to your idea, it definetly sounds good. Except that the US will (for the forseeable future) remain allied to Australia, and will continue to support your trade links. So tell me how the politicians that you mention should sell a huge military budget hike to the public in order to create capabilities currently provided by the presence of the US free of charge, and unlikely to ever be used or ever be necessary.
Feanor, I think you misunderstood. There was no mention of any 'vigilantes' in what I wrote. Ultimately the security of Australia is the responsibility of Australians.

The USA may remain allied with Australia, but that does not mean it underwrites Australian national security. There will be situations in which the USA may not support Australia's use of forces, and visa versa.

There is no need for a huge budget hike. Better management would be far more welcome. Same budget as now would have seen the ADF lavishly equipped by comparison had there been more effective Defence planning and management, including that of Defence industry sector, had the Liberal and later Labour governments going back to the late 70s not got used to the "USA crutch". Lets not forget that in 1946 Australia was the most developed country in the Indian-Pacific region with shipbuilding, armoured vehicle building and ordnance manufacturing capabilities. Today we are a net Defence importer, nay, dependent.

Where in case of some items of equipment like fighter planes this is understandable since apparently not even the USA can now afford development and production of such advanced aircraft in its own right, in the case of simpler platforms like infantry fighting vehicles we should have had a better product than an armoured bus...er...master. We did buy LAVs from Canada while spending years redesigning a 60s rush job (M113). Australia should be able to manufacture its own artillery, including self propelled, given we have world-standard development in metals technology. We should be able to design and build out own combat and combat support vessels given we are a continent three-ocean nation.

We should be able to do lots of things, but we can't because there Australian Governments have never supported defence industry as a matter of national security priority, and much of the population does not understand that having this capability is tantamount to the difference between having a life saving operation in the country, or having to travel overseas for one.

For example we are a country with one of the oldest and safest records for flying. Air transport is vital for Australia as a domestic and international means of communication. And yet we can't even put together a military tactical transport to replace the C-130, having to buy (it seems) the C-27. Even if the design and development of such an aircraft was too much of an effort for the Australian defence industry, what about regional cooperation? Surely the effort shared with states like Japan, South Korea and Singapore would have been well worth the effort?

The outcome of this mismanagement? The Army does not own one major piece of equipment designed in Australia. The navy sails in mostly European-designed vessels, with the exception of the patrol boats. The RAAF had to even buy turbo-prop trainers from Switzerland, and this after building fighter planes during the Second World War in which Switzerland didn't even participate! If we are the "clever country" why do we keep paying other people for high tech defence equipment?

Add up all the licence fees, fees for all the support provided from external suppliers, all the training that can only be conducted overseas, all the technology transfer programs required to integrate this technology, and employing all the foreign consultants and contractors, and you will get a pile of cash more than the $15 billion ADF was asked to save to cope with its procurement program over the next decade. And, in return you will get more local employment, design and development, innovation, and greater public awareness of the purpose for and contribution of the defence industry and Defence in general.

As for having "capabilities currently provided by the presence of the US free of charge, and unlikely to ever be used or ever be necessary", this is not true. We are not in a static World. Australia faces a very insecure arc across its global periphery from South Africa, along the East coast of Africa to the Persian Gulf, along the southern coast of West Asia, India, South-East Asia, and into the East Asian region. About the only safe route for Australian shipping in the long term is via Hawaii and Panama. The way to the largest and richest market on Earth for Australia lies mostly through troubled waters indeed. The USN will not be everywhere, all the time, for posterity. The Australian Government needs to realise this now given creation of replacement capabilities is likely to take a generation to develop. Can you tell what the globe will be like in 20 years?
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
For example we are a country with one of the oldest and safest records for flying. Air transport is vital for Australia as a domestic and international means of communication. And yet we can't even put together a military tactical transport to replace the C-130, having to buy (it seems) the C-27. Even if the design and development of such an aircraft was too much of an effort for the Australian defence industry, what about regional cooperation? Surely the effort shared with states like Japan, South Korea and Singapore would have been well worth the effort?

The outcome of this mismanagement? The Army does not own one major piece of equipment designed in Australia. The navy sails in mostly European-designed vessels, with the exception of the patrol boats. The RAAF had to even buy turbo-prop trainers from Switzerland, and this after building fighter planes during the Second World War in which Switzerland didn't even participate! If we are the "clever country" why do we keep paying other people for high tech defence equipment?
Future Tank, I think you misunderstand just exactly how expensive your proposals are. Just to reply to your proposal about why we are not designing and manufacturing our own C130 replacement - basically it's about cost. In case you haven't noticed, a company the size of Airbus is several years and billions of dollars behind on delivering an airframe not massively larger than the C130.

The only other airframes in competition to the C130 are the Japanese C-X (extensive governmental support - but at least Japan has an aerospace industry) the just launched Embraer - again like Airbus from a manufacturers point of view plenty of money and aviation experience to draw on. Some of the designs from the Former Soviet Union could be refreshed I guess, but again this is from a nation with vast resources and an established aviation history. The last time we produced anything that was locally designed and built was the Nomad - complete with its in flight detatchable tail. Plus, we need say 12 - 20 airframes. If nobody else orders the aircraft all of the billions of dollars of development costs need to be amortised against 20 airframes. Oh, good - we've got these fabulous transports, but sorry chaps we've had to spend all the money we had set aside for the JSF... Or would the scenario play out like this - billions of dollars additional for defence and a PM being asked by Kerry O'Brien, Can you explain to the Australian people Prime Minister, why we needed to make our own C130 replacements when we could have bought off the shelf from Lockheed for hundreds of millions of dollars less per airframe?

Artillery - same deal. We need what 50 tubes total? Again you would be looking at probably a billion dollar plus program to produce one calibre (say the 155's) you could leverage off that for a few hundred million for the 105's. Again, how much do you want to pay per gun?

Question Future Tank, assuming you have a car, why did you buy a ready made one? After all I'm sure you could have comissioned a team of engineers and stylists yourself. Could it be that you would consider it far too expensive to do that? Why is Australia any different?
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Future Tank, I think you misunderstand just exactly how expensive your proposals are. Just to reply to your proposal about why we are not designing and manufacturing our own C130 replacement - basically it's about cost. In case you haven't noticed, a company the size of Airbus is several years and billions of dollars behind on delivering an airframe not massively larger than the C130.
No, you misunderstand....primarily because you didn't read what I said. There is a decades-long history of mismanagement, so catching up now is harder and expensive. Ever heard of EADS-CASA? Not so long ago they were making simple small turboprop tactical transports, and NOW they are part of the A400M consortium. The aircraft are being partly assembled in their plant. Some of their aircraft are being produced in Indonesia under licence. Will Australian industry have the capability to produce the C-27J in Australia?

The only other airframes in competition to the C130 are the Japanese C-X (extensive governmental support - but at least Japan has an aerospace industry) the just launched Embraer - again like Airbus from a manufacturers point of view plenty of money and aviation experience to draw on. Some of the designs from the Former Soviet Union could be refreshed I guess, but again this is from a nation with vast resources and an established aviation history. The last time we produced anything that was locally designed and built was the Nomad - complete with its in flight detatchable tail. Plus, we need say 12 - 20 airframes. If nobody else orders the aircraft all of the billions of dollars of development costs need to be amortised against 20 airframes. Oh, good - we've got these fabulous transports, but sorry chaps we've had to spend all the money we had set aside for the JSF... Or would the scenario play out like this - billions of dollars additional for defence and a PM being asked by Kerry O'Brien, Can you explain to the Australian people Prime Minister, why we needed to make our own C130 replacements when we could have bought off the shelf from Lockheed for hundreds of millions of dollars less per airframe?
What billions of dollars? The RAAF know the C-130 inside out. Lots of other nations fly C-130s and woudl not mind purchasing something equivalent, but not priced in US dollars.

Artillery - same deal. We need what 50 tubes total? Again you would be looking at probably a billion dollar plus program to produce one calibre (say the 155's) you could leverage off that for a few hundred million for the 105's. Again, how much do you want to pay per gun?
Ok, we need more than 50 tubes really, but India needs several hundred. There are other countries we could sell to. However, lets say we don't have the technology to make the actual tubes. Can we make the rest fo the ordnance, carriage, trails, recoil mechanism, that the tube bought elsewhere can be mounted into? Can we make a self-propelled platform for the weapon?
How did it get that South Korea, South Africa and Singapore are bidding to supply ADF its guns?

Question Future Tank, assuming you have a car, why did you buy a ready made one? After all I'm sure you could have comissioned a team of engineers and stylists yourself. Could it be that you would consider it far too expensive to do that? Why is Australia any different?
That is disingenuous as a question. Lots of Australians do make their own cars by assembling them, often from specially made parts, and matching engines and other components to make far better performers than the production models from Ford, Toyota or dare I say Holden.
Australia used to be able to make its own cars until GM forced its own design on Holden. And then the Government laments of the brain drain when there is no way for the brains to make a decent dollar from exporting manufactured goods because everything is bought in.

However, if I don't have a car, I can try my luck with public transport.
What do you do when you don't have a defence industry, or have one that runs like the public transport, slow, never on time, shared for convenience, and stops blocks away from where you want to be. That's why people get cars. They own the problem of transport, and are in control of the process of getting from A to B.
From 20 years of looking I don't see the ADF being in control.

There is a myth that "small players" can't compete or indeed be profitable. Its not true. Look at the number of countries not so much larger than Australia in terms of population and economy, and some quite a bit smaller, being successful in the global defence industry. The media always points to the USA when talking about Australian defence procurement, but the US is itself now buying from the smaller more efficient producers than from the decades-long project dinosaurs like Lockheed.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
In any case, the question was, is Australia not ready for war, and the answer is yes its not ready. To be ready for war, one has to have the logistic support to sustain it, and currently that logistic support comes predominantly from a variety of suppliers in the USA and Europe, and soon maybe Asia and Africa. This means that the ADF has to fight with what it has until that breaks down or runs out of ammo. Unless the ADF is hoping for the 2003-type "quick victory"? Australian geographic position almost obligates self-sufficiency in terms of defence because the "cavalry" may not always arrive in time as it did during the Second World War.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #37
There is no point in manufacturing a copy of a C-130. The C-130 modern varients are extremely complicated and the C-17 is even more complicated (which we would forfit buy designing and making C-130 copies). We do not operate enough frames to make this an acceptable choice. Airbus has nations like France, germany and UK all buying airframes and still haven't made anything decent out of it.

We do make parts for the C-130 here, flaps and the like out of carbon fiber, its not fantastic but if your arguement is more local production of parts (licenced) then yes. Lets persue that!

Australia should have persued a Bou replacement (perhaps not like the C27J) before, but again we would have to partner with someone like the UK or Canada to ensure enough airframes. We could have done something like that.

We could have made some sort of cheap training aircraft if we had partnered with other countries.

We can't intergrate modern flight systems for a helicopter. Seasprite.

We can make submarines essentially from scratch. That is impressive, we do assemble fighter, helicopters and ships here. We do design and make ships/boats. We should take more steps in local production in this area.

Bushmaster is a fine vechical that was the right product at the right time. Its a project that did well, that is finding overseas customers. Its not all about making T-72 knock offs, we are not china.

Ford and Holden are exactly the sort of vechical you should buy. There are largely designed and made in Australia and add massive manufacturing capability for Aerospace industries.

Ford making aluminium I6 blocks locally will mean Australia can now produce large quanities of aluminium engines. Holden wanted to and couldn't find funding for the V6 plant, Ion/BTR are dead and we lost lots of manufacturing capacity with them.

Its not about milling up your own V12 block and making your own spaceframe. Its about having sustainable, profitable mass manufacting industries in Australia. We need more aluminium capabilities, more carbon fiber capabilities. Sustainable planning for all defence industries.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
There is no point in manufacturing a copy of a C-130. The C-130 modern varients are extremely complicated and the C-17 is even more complicated (which we would forfit buy designing and making C-130 copies). We do not operate enough frames to make this an acceptable choice. Airbus has nations like France, germany and UK all buying airframes and still haven't made anything decent out of it.

We do make parts for the C-130 here, flaps and the like out of carbon fiber, its not fantastic but if your arguement is more local production of parts (licenced) then yes. Lets persue that!
I beg to differ, but if the Australian industry can not make an aircraft that has been flown by the RAAF for yonks, it should go back to competing in moped manufacture with Thailand.
The basic airframe can be manufactured in Australia. Hydraulics, fuel systems, control systems, all can be made in Australia. Ok, so we can't make a whole engine, but we should be able to licence produce one in Australia. Or at least major blocks of one. That we can't make flight controls for a military aircraft is pathetic. I know I am oversimplifying it, but we are not talking a high performance strike fighter here.
The question is, can the RAAF transport aircraft be sustained in a conventional war situation, and the answer is....not without the USA logistic support. That support is 11,631km away from Townsville! Maybe Americans will set up a special support facility for us in Hawaii 7,523km away, but suppliers capable of manufacturing all the parts around Australia would be a lot better.

Australia should have persued a Bou replacement (perhaps not like the C27J) before, but again we would have to partner with someone like the UK or Canada to ensure enough airframes. We could have done something like that.
And why do we have to partner just with the NATO countries? Both the Labour (Keating) and the Liberal (Howard) governments bleated about Australia not benefiting from the sort of economic scales of production that are available to the EU countries, but NEITHER had done much to try and foster this sort of economic cooperation in the I-P region. And mind you, the South Koreans, Singaporeans and the Japanese, never mind the Taiwanese, all design their weapons to fit NATO standards. We had at least a 20 year gap to design and build a Caribou replacement! In that time I recon I could have built one by hand in the back of the house! This is not even a C-130! Let me give you the specs, simple, low maintenance, turboprop to lift an infantry platoon or small vehicle. Just needs rough landing gear. Americans put together the F-35 in 20 years, and Australia could not even replace a light tactical cargo aircraft! How ready are we for war?

We could have made some sort of cheap training aircraft if we had partnered with other countries.
What's complicated about the BAe Hawk? Why would we even want to partner? Its 1960s technology with two decades of refinement. In fact all we had to do is redesign the A-4s into something smaller and more economical, and would have had ourselves not only a decent training jet, but also a light attack one also. Instead of glorying about how we always beat the Poms in cricket, maybe just once we can make something without writing to London about it, and let them have the Ashes for a year?

We can't intergrate modern flight systems for a helicopter. Seasprite.
Yes, and I see that we are getting 27 replacements helos. Someone should go to jail over that waste of A$1.1 billion, but no one will. I wonder where we can get extra money for domestic R&D effort and supporting defence industry? How about not buying crap from others, or trying to refurbish old technology?

We can make submarines essentially from scratch. That is impressive, we do assemble fighter, helicopters and ships here. We do design and make ships/boats. We should take more steps in local production in this area.
Yes, from scratch, but in a wartime we would not have a decade, or even 24 months to complete one. Mind you the Collins experience I'm sure will have taught some lessons in Adelaide.

Bushmaster is a fine vechical that was the right product at the right time. Its a project that did well, that is finding overseas customers. Its not all about making T-72 knock offs, we are not china.
The only problem is, its not really an infantry combat vehicle, is it? You would not send infantry off against T-72 knock-offs in a Bushmaster. By the way, the M1 was made to counter the T-72s, so if Australia could build something more up to date in terms of design, but on same principles, maybe like the Leclerc? We don't need a high rate of production, or volume. But, domestic capability could have resulted in three regiments rather than one, which would have made the Australian Army far more ready for war since 1996 when the Army should have started looking for a replacement. It is still looking for a replacement to the M113. I think the only other significant country in I-P region without an IFV is the Philipines, although it does have some AIFVs that were successors to the M113.

Ford and Holden are exactly the sort of vechical you should buy. There are largely designed and made in Australia and add massive manufacturing capability for Aerospace industries.

Ford making aluminium I6 blocks locally will mean Australia can now produce large quanities of aluminium engines. Holden wanted to and couldn't find funding for the V6 plant, Ion/BTR are dead and we lost lots of manufacturing capacity with them.
And? Can we build replacements for the Land Rovers or not? Most of the public may not realise it, but they are really valuable type of vehicles in a war.

Its not about milling up your own V12 block and making your own spaceframe.
Agreed.

Its about having sustainable, profitable mass manufacting industries in Australia. We need more aluminium capabilities, more carbon fiber capabilities. Sustainable planning for all defence industries.
Yes...but who's job is it to manage that? By the way, why do they have to be profitable? What they are manufacturing, is usually equipment that is going to be consumed over 20-30 years by a client that is more into survival than profitability. The cost of recruiting, training and keeping a squad of infantrymen in service over their initial three-four years easily equals the cost of a production IFV, assuming it is not a Bradley. With all the upgrades and maintenance, over a generation the vehicle more than pays back for itself if it is still representing a viable combat platform. Can this be said for the M113 now? How well do you think they will go against Indonesian BMPs in one possible scenario? So, ready for war?

I had been following Australian Defence matters for about 20 years now. What I have noticed are two trend: the ADF is always talking about the future while never having actual NOW capability, and Defence is usually up there with sex and religion, not to be discussed in polite company.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
He's actually absolutely correct. You're advocating developing

1) Tactical lift.
2) Naval production.
3) Artillery.
4) Light armor.

The price tag for all of that development and integration is huge. And if you're thinking about exports, think again. The export market is a very harsh place. Look at Sweden, who has a long time history of independent development. They're currently being forced to cut back on development, and instead are working closer with other European countries, and in particular with the US. Mainly because they can no longer offset the development costs with domestic purchases, and can't win enough export orders to make it worth while.

And the bottom line is that it's just cheaper to get it abroad. Now you talk about mismanagement. Can you point out specific instances? Or is that your general opinion without anything to support it?
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Fitzgibbon

"New threats, new tactics and new technologies will continue to evolve and we as a defence organisation need to use gatherings such as this to stay ahead of the game and ensure that the forces we field to meet the threats of the 21st century are the best trained, best equipped and best motivated troops on the modern battlefield."

New threats?

New tactics?

New technologies?

Does the Minister know what he is talking about?
To my best knowledge there has not been any evidence of new threats for the past decade since the operation in East Timor. Indonesia is now a potential threat to Timor Leste, and Australia underwrites its security.
The tactics used on land, at sea and in the air remain at those of Cold War or earlier. Certainly the operations in Afghanistan continue in the same way they had as far back as the Soviet period, the refugees take the same routes to reach Australia, and nothing much changed in the air.
The only new technologies that might pose a threat to Australia has been the development of nuclear weapons in India and Pakistan, mostly Pakistan. If Pakistan turns an Islamic state, the anti-ballistic capability of the ships to be purchased by the RAN will come in handy since Australian infidels are busy in Afghanistan now. However, this is a capability Australia should have had a long time ago because China is still a communist state, and so no different to the Soviet Union of the Cold War days.

Best trained troops? Well, if we only had enough of them. Even most regular battalions are under strength, and the Navy can't effectively crew all its ships now, while the RAAF is always looking for more aircraft support personnel. Probably Australian troops are best trained because many are also overworked.

Best equipped, but for what? He has now approved what amounts to a complete replacement of the old M113 fleet with the Bushmasters that are only good for internal security duties in a low intensity conflict scenario. The refurbished M113s are still representing the thinking of 1960s in terms of employing infantry, which is the most numerous and important part of the Army. While another navy of RAN size and disposing of same budged can put to sea two task forces with each having a small F-35B equipped aircraft carrier and an LPD, both with troops trained to dedicated operations from these vessels, Australia will have only the LHD in its TF and no fixed wing element. It will use the regular infantry who will cross-train for land and amphibious operations. When they go ashore in their modified M113s and escorted by the new Abrams tanks, they will have no air cover or air defence because the RBS70 the Army has can not be fired on the move from atop the M113. With the elimination of the F-111s Australia, located at the edge of the Indian-Pacific region, will not have a long range strike element either.

Best motivated by what, denying combat service to the infantry, or giving the gunners 120mm mortars?
From May 2005 to December 2007 the Army accepted for service ten Tiger helicopters, but the Dutch still provide aviation fire support for Australian troops in Afghanistan. I would have though that the Army could train eight pilots and their support crews in three years. The RAAF could also help out, if only by deploying the Hawks in light attack role that can also be used to train Afghani pilots, but nope, no RAAF for combat duties. Maybe a RAN patrol boat or two to operate from Kenya (a Commonwealth country) in counter-pirate role? Nope, stretched with the boat people as it is.

The Minister also thinks that "We must pay attention to providing the best protection possible to the soldiers we put into harm's way by ensuring our vehicles take advantage of the most up-to-date protective technologies to ensure their survivability against modern-day threats,".
What up-to-date protective technologies does he think can be added to the Bushmaster to counter 12.7mm or larger calibre fire, or some of the more modern Russian RPGs? Maybe he is talking about the LAND 121 vehicles, but the United States' Joint Light Tactical Vehicle Program is unlikely to be delivered inside 3 years, and the Obama Administration really hope to be out of Afghanistan by then.
 
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