Artillery

ngatimozart

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Off-tangent discussion for context — Part 1


1. In a high end war fighting scenario, to my simple mind, I would assume that the enemy can sanitise the air of attack helicopters or UAVs, by use of multi-layer air defences, which is why it is so important to retain fires capability by self propelled 155mm artillery, HIMARS, PrSM and the like. Increasingly, I think any 155mm L/39 even when it is self propelled is a little too short ranged. Self propelled 120mm mortars must also be supported by its own organic UAVs.

2. Long range strike can be used to takeout SAM layers, with F-35As or F-35Bs serving as additional ISR assets
A fixed air defence system is vulnerable to attack from missiles and aircraft as the opening stanza of Desert Storm illustrated when the Iraqi IADS was destroyed in a single night. However mobile GBAD is harder to knock out because its mobility is its best defence.

The British Army are introducing Land Ceptor into service and it's a game changer for them.


On the battlefield this with SPAAG / MANPAD system would offer a good mobile GBAD that could prove challenging to an enemy.

I think the point to remember is that we really don't know what will really work and won't work in the next near peer conflict. Modelling and theory offers some guidance, but at the end of the day once the first shot is fired a lot of that is useless because the actual combat is different to that envisaged. WW2 showed that in copious quantities with many lessons having to be relearnt or learnt painfully and at sometimes great cost in blood and treasure. Hence I believe that we should not forget lessons from WW2 and Korea, by having good, multilayered, plentiful MGBAD for the ground forces. Such MGBAD should be able to keep pace with armoured and other fast paced forces.
 

STURM

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as the opening stanza of Desert Storm illustrated when the Iraqi IADS was destroyed in a single night. .
It was “breached” in a single night but the effort to severely degrade the network took longer if I’m not mistaken.

A lot has been written about the air campaign; i.e. total of sorties flown; types of ordnance used; targets destroyed; etc. Unfortunately however to the best of my knowledge there is no widely available detailed account of things from the Iraqi perspective; i.e. details of their French supplied “Kari” network; gaps in the coverage; chains of command; number of SAMs launched: deception efforts; etc. In sharp contrast: almost everything the Serbs did has been well researched and documented.
 

STURM

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Hence I believe that we should not forget lessons from WW2 and Korea.
The Soviets/Russians certainly haven’t; reflected in the strong emphasis they place on AD; itself predicated on the premise that in an all out war against NATO they will probably lose the initiative in the air; hence a multi layered extensive AD capability which is distributed to almost all levels in Russian ground forces and fully integrated in all levels of operations and planning.

I wonder what direction Chinese planning has taken? Do that expect to be able to deny the use of their airspace to enemy air forces or do they like the Russians adopt the pragmatic approach of assuming that this will not be the case?
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
A interesting article which appeared in 2019. It notes limitations faced by the Royal Artillery and the recommend steps to be taken. The way the Russians organise their arty at brigade level is indicative of the great importance they place in arty (heavily driven by WW2) and it’s hardly surprising that the Chinese have followed suit.

British Army needs bigger guns, study finds

“By contrast a Russian motor-rifle brigade alone fields an organic fires compliment of 81 artillery pieces, ranging from 152-mm and 203-mm self-propelled howitzers to 300-mm, multiple-launch rocket systems, the RUSI study said”
 

Big_Zucchini

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Zucchini,

What is your personal view on towed arty? That they’re simply not survivable on the modern battlefield and Mack the mobility needed to keep pace with manoeuvre units or that it depends on the operational context; that some armies still have a need for them?

You mentioned that an independent commander’s sight seems like a luxury. Apologies if I got it wrong but are you suggesting that such sights in this day and age are not an absolute must have for MBTs? Also; given that the bulk of targets will be unobserved; why would a SPH need an independent commander’s sight?
I believe there are currently too many users for towed artillery.
India and China, for example, are two countries where towed artillery is still a must. Mobility requirements are super strict in their mountainous border regions.

Indeed due to the increased need in mobility, all non-attritable firing assets must be self propelled for a start, in countries that either don't have those extra strict mobility needs, or build expeditionary forces.

The US for example has conducted a shoot-off for wheeled howitzers, most likely to replace the M777.
Russia's making wheeled howitzers and tracked ones at the same time.

New products have popped up over the years, primarily relying on new recoil management tech and guidance down to small rockets. Today you can deploy a 4x4 vehicle carrying a small hive of 122mm rockets, as a pocket artillery that is lighter, less manned, more mobile, and easier on logistics, than any towed howitzer.

Regarding sights, my comments were relevant only for artillery vehicles. They are absolutely a must on frontline vehicles, and we're even seeing new concepts with 2 such sights per vehicle, on top of additional optics.

This is something that western armies need to consider carefully. In a near peer conflict it is absolute folly to presume friendly air superiority and calibres before 30mm really don't hack it any more. Such capabilities amongst these ground forces, especially within the FVEY ground forces are quite pitiful
The JADC2 will at least passively bring the US back to a point of adequate battlefield air defense.
Right now, although we're seeing renewed efforts to bring dedicated gun air defenses back in Germany and USA, it's perhaps not worth the investment when dedicated platforms in that role may start becoming obsolete by the next decade.
That is why said efforts are not very serious.

Dedicated platforms may instead take a much different form, perhaps relying on a lot more sensors and electronic and optical effectors, turning any kinetic effector a secondary choice. If they'll even exist.
Agreed. Ideally all arty, 120mm mortars and MLRS should have an organic UAS capability. The problem is, as you pointed out, in a high end fight those UASs might not be able to operate effectively due to an opponent having adequate hard and soft kill means to counter them.

This I feel is a lesson from Nargano Karabakh which tends to be overlooked. Sure the Azeris made extremely effective and innovative use of UASs but this was against an opponent which lacked the means to counter them.
This does not reduce from the importance of UAS. The current vector of evolution is turning said UAS assets into swarms by increasing autonomy, and decreasing the unit costs.

Peers' warfare will highlight strategies and tactics. But to reach that point, you have to have the tools. UAS are one of many tools and they're not invalidated by countermeasures like tanks were not invalidated ever, by any form of weapon.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
India and China, for example, are two countries where towed artillery is still a must. Mobility requirements are super strict in their mountainous border
I would think that the large numbers of towed pieces in both armies is driven not only by terrain considerations but is also a throwback from a different era: when towed pieces were in line with the doctrine, operational requirements and threat perceptions were different.

The US for example has conducted a shoot-off for wheeled howitzers, most likely to replace the M777.
Do you agree that despite all the clear advantages in having self propelled pieces; that some units like rapid reaction forces or mountain units still have a need for towed pieces (albeit 105mms) due to the lighter footprint? Also; what are your views on 105nm arty? Should they or can they be replaced by 120mm mortars; despite a mortar not being able to be a full substitute for an artillery piece?

This does not reduce from the importance of UAS
Indeed and I wasn’t suggesting so. I was merely making the observation that the successful use of UASs in Nargano Karabakh was enabled by the fact that one side had the capability and employed it to full use; whilst the other side simply did not have the adequate means to counter it.
 
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Big_Zucchini

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Do you agree that despite all the clear advantages in having self propelled pieces; that some units like rapid reaction forces or mountain units still have a need for towed pieces (albeit 105mms) due to the lighter footprint? Also; what are your views on 105nm arty? Should they or can they be replaced by 120mm mortars; despite a mortar not being able to be a full substitute for an artillery piece?
105mm arty does not need to be towed. Look at the Brutus for example.
I do not know how to properly compare mortars and howitzers of any caliber so I will not comment on that, other than perhaps that mountainous regions tend to require higher angles of fire, and occur over shorter ranges, which might favor mortars.

Indeed and I wasn’t suggesting so. I was merely making the observation that the successful use of UASs in Nargano Karabakh was enabled by the fact that one side had the capability and employed it to full use; whilst the other side simply did not have the adequate means to counter it.
Yes, plus the superiority in other areas.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
105mm arty does not need to be towed.
Indeed but I was referring to units with particular requirements; for which nothing larger than 105mm calibre is possible and for something which can be underslung from a helicopter. For which the inherent limitations of a towed 105mm piece are penalties worth incurring.

Anyway thank you for the feedback. Much appreciated.
 

surpreme

Member
Now for something completely different.

Came across this YouTube video on PLA-GF SPAAG based VSHORAD.


Some of looks pretty mean and TBH I would want to be in an attack helo going up against them. They have their version of the Oerlikon twin 30mm which they have upgraded. They also have various 35mm mounts including a revolver similar to the Rheinmettall 35mm Millennium gun. Some of the mounts also have twin MANPAD missiles as well. All of the mounts have radar and most have some form of EO sight. One mount is a quad 25mm and they have a truck mounted naval twin 76mm fast auto cannon with similar capabilities and ammo to the Oto Melera 76mm gun. That's a serious gun to have as a SPAAG.

This has to be considered a serious threat to low level aviation of any type and if the PLA-GF field them in significant numbers within ground formations, they will force a change in how rotary wing aviation is utilised. Secondly, the Russian army has a similar philosophy.

This is something that western armies need to consider carefully. In a near peer conflict it is absolute folly to presume friendly air superiority and calibres before 30mm really don't hack it any more. Such capabilities amongst these ground forces, especially within the FVEY ground forces are quite pitiful.
I will said this western heli army will respect this capabilities as they will not be able to make a run as they wish. Also can be use on land if need be as the syrian was using there AA guns as land weapon
 

Big_Zucchini

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I will said this western heli army will respect this capabilities as they will not be able to make a run as they wish. Also can be use on land if need be as the syrian was using there AA guns as land weapon
That is assuming attack helicopters will remain as they are. But they're not. They're changing and becoming longer ranged, much faster, and carry more.
This capability leap that will be felt in the next decade perhaps, and it helps turn helicopters from recon and CAS platforms to stealthy standoff weapons delivery platforms.
For land applications, they can launch ATGMs to tens of kilometers thus evading any form of short range air defense system, and can also launch loitering munitions and drone swarms.

Such VSHORAD systems will therefore be less relevant for helicopters and more for downing munitions.
And in that case, I hope they aren't using 2A42/72 ripoffs because they're notoriously inaccurate, leading to the embarrassing video of quad Pantsir unit fruitlessly firing salvo upon salvo on a very close by drone.
 

STURM

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And in that case, I hope they aren't using 2A42/72 ripoffs because they're notoriously inaccurate, leading to the embarrassing video of quad Pantsir unit fruitlessly firing salvo upon salvo on a very close by drone.
What was the reason? Was it actually due to a technical deficiency with the system?
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
A fixed air defence system is vulnerable to attack from missiles and aircraft as the opening stanza of Desert Storm illustrated when the Iraqi IADS was destroyed in a single night. However mobile GBAD is harder to knock out because its mobility is its best defence.
Can the Multi-missile NASAMS launcher be fired from the truck or does is need to be dismounted? Just trying to understand if it is self-propelled.

If not then this does seem to be against the self-propelled trend. Is this a concern?

Thanks in advance?

Massive
 

STURM

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I’m also curious if any Western systems developed will have the ability to fire on the move or even if there’s an actual requirement for this capability? As far as I know the Russian Tor has this capability.
 

Big_Zucchini

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An undisclosed Asia-pacific country has signed a $106 million contract for the Elbit Sigma SPH:

The Sigma is a howitzer system built for maximum capabilities, and maximum growth potential.
It is the variant chosen by the IDF, and it features a 155mm L52 gun mounted in a fully automated turret, itself mounted on a 10x10 truck.
Elbit's uniqueness in this product is its other activities where it is considered a world leading player, e.g fire control, turret systems, battle management, sensors and fusion, and the integration of all above aspects.

Basic stats:
155mm L52 gun.
3 crewmen usually.
8 rounds per minute via autoloading.
Autonomous operation.
MRSI-capable.
Platform-agnostic.

What is perhaps most unique about it, is the 10x10 truck. For the existing setup, an 8x8 truck would clearly suffice. Some variants of the Atmos were even 6x6.
The only other 10x10 truck based SPH is Rheinmetall's, as an enabler for longer L60 gun. When not needed at the moment, extra wheels are typically a liability for such systems. So we can assume some serious growth plan is embedded in this system.
The tests of an L58 gun in the US make it a prime candidate for integration on an Israeli SPH, and by extension for its customers.
 

Big_Zucchini

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sark

Member
..as with all weapons, there are 2 issues that affect them:
1. they are part of a combined arms system--air, ground, logistical, communications/etc and they probably will be fighting against another combined arms system = the effectiveness of that weapon is effected by the systems
2. the effectiveness of the weapon depends on training and motivation --this includes training involving multiple units with multiple commands/communications/etc
..a mediocre weapon in trained, motivated hands is better than a great weapon in untrained, unmotivated hands = cheaper does not always mean less effective
 

ngatimozart

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..as with all weapons, there are 2 issues that affect them:
1. they are part of a combined arms system--air, ground, logistical, communications/etc and they probably will be fighting against another combined arms system = the effectiveness of that weapon is effected by the systems
2. the effectiveness of the weapon depends on training and motivation --this includes training involving multiple units with multiple commands/communications/etc
..a mediocre weapon in trained, motivated hands is better than a great weapon in untrained, unmotivated hands = cheaper does not always mean less effective
The Singaporeans are highly effective, very well trained, and well motivated. They would be one of the most effective military's in the Indo-Pacific and easily on par with the Australians. Their average soldier, like the Australian and Kiwi soldier is better trained than the average US soldier. This is because of cultural differences.
 

sark

Member
The Singaporeans are highly effective, very well trained, and well motivated. They would be one of the most effective military's in the Indo-Pacific and easily on par with the Australians. Their average soldier, like the Australian and Kiwi soldier is better trained than the average US soldier. This is because of cultural differences.
....I admire those cultures ...the Japanese were/are known for discipline/etc...the NVA were good .....the US Marines even '''complimented''' them ........2 July 1967 = worst single day for the USMC in Vietnam -- where my wife's uncle was KIA...the NVA set up a '''large''' trap/ambush
 
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