Argentine navy future

A

Aussie Digger

Guest
contedicavour said:
Very interesting thanks !
What weapons do they use though ? I've only seen Piranhas which are AFAIK short range IR self defence missiles comparable to Sidewinders. Lack of BVR plus a subsonic speed hamper these birds a lot...
What armament did the NZ A4s have before being retired from service ?

cheers
AIM-9L Sidewinders, AGM-65 Maverick missiles, 20mm cannon, Mk 82/83/82 bombs, GBU-10/12/16 bombs, A2G rockets etc. A uesful CAS, light strike and "point" air defence capability, but that was about it.

They also had an APG-66 radar system and a "buddy" A2A refuelling capability...

Such a waste.

Sigh...
 

contedicavour

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
AIM-9L Sidewinders, AGM-65 Maverick missiles, 20mm cannon, Mk 82/83/82 bombs, GBU-10/12/16 bombs, A2G rockets etc. A uesful CAS, light strike and "point" air defence capability, but that was about it.

They also had an APG-66 radar system and a "buddy" A2A refuelling capability...

Such a waste.

Sigh...
Not bad for a relatively small and old plane ! Were the NZ A4s just scrapped ? Brazil could have been interested if only NZ scrapped them a bit later... though I'm not sure all A4s could be as easily navalized as those taken by Brazil from Kuwaiti stock.

thks
cheers
 

Big-E

Banned Member
@ Gollevainen

You say I need to get in the mind set of S. American navies. Your right, I need to understand their needs and geo-political mind set (wether I agree with it or not). So a few questions for you...

What is the goal of the navies of major S. American nations?

What are the threats they face?

How does a carrier integrate into these threats?

Are these threats outside of land based aircraft?

Are the tempos needed going to be met by a Foch style carrier?

I guess I need to hear your thought on these questions before I continue.:D
 

contedicavour

New Member
Big-E said:
@ Gollevainen

You say I need to get in the mind set of S. American navies. Your right, I need to understand their needs and geo-political mind set (wether I agree with it or not). So a few questions for you...

What is the goal of the navies of major S. American nations?

What are the threats they face?

How does a carrier integrate into these threats?

Are these threats outside of land based aircraft?

Are the tempos needed going to be met by a Foch style carrier?

I guess I need to hear your thought on these questions before I continue.:D
If only most governments and defence ministries followed this logical set of questions before taking up ships (and aircrafts and MBTs...) that don't make sense in their inventory ;)

cheers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
contedicavour said:
Very interesting thanks !
What weapons do they use though ? I've only seen Piranhas which are AFAIK short range IR self defence missiles comparable to Sidewinders. Lack of BVR plus a subsonic speed hamper these birds a lot...
What armament did the NZ A4s have before being retired from service ?

cheers
Piranha on the Brasilian A-4s. Argentina used to have R-530, R-550 & Shafrir. I'm not sure what the A-4ARs have. They're equipped to fire AIM-9L/M. BVR AAMs could be integrated, but Argentina doesn't have any.
 

Gollevainen

the corporal
Verified Defense Pro
@ Gollevainen

You say I need to get in the mind set of S. American navies. Your right, I need to understand their needs and geo-political mind set (wether I agree with it or not). So a few questions for you...
Well If you are patient enough to wait untill the next weekend, I will try to awnser you (I need to go trough my sources, mean= I have few good books which gives valuable backup information, but they are in different location than I am at the moment) ;)
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
contedicavour said:
Not bad for a relatively small and old plane ! Were the NZ A4s just scrapped ? Brazil could have been interested if only NZ scrapped them a bit later... though I'm not sure all A4s could be as easily navalized as those taken by Brazil from Kuwaiti stock.

thks
cheers
No NZ still has them and are trying to find a buyer. They are already Navalised as NZ bought them from Australia after we finished operating them off OUR Carrier...
 

contedicavour

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
No NZ still has them and are trying to find a buyer. They are already Navalised as NZ bought them from Australia after we finished operating them off OUR Carrier...
Ah-ha I wasn't aware of that ! Well then Brazil should try to make an offer for them if it wants to preserve its small and ageing Skyhawk force airborne for some more time.
Though how old are the NZ A4s... I'm calculating that the last Australian carrier was retired in the early '80s... may be they are too used after all.

cheers
 

Gollevainen

the corporal
Verified Defense Pro
You say I need to get in the mind set of S. American navies. Your right, I need to understand their needs and geo-political mind set (wether I agree with it or not). So a few questions for you...
Well like I promised, heres my attempt to try to awnser to your questions...


What is the goal of the navies of major S. American nations?
As with any other nations, protect the national intress and show the flag eg. power to other countries. What makes the Latin america different than in other parts of the world is the unique geopolitical situation. USA has considered the both american continents as their "own backyards" keeping other major powers out there. This has generated some sort of "greenhouse" world to the south american countries where they are quite free to focus on each others without intervention of other global players. The four major players in the area, Argentina, Peru, Brazil and Chile have been rivaling with each others (and formed "a pairs" like Brazil vs. Argentina and Chile vs. Peru) As the only reasonble military thread comes from the neighbouring country (USA keeping the Soviets and others away) it makes some the "rules" bit different than with other navies. The mahanian type of direct rivaling between two nations have remained considerably longer than in other parts of the world.

What are the threats they face?
Like I said, each others, Argentina has Brazil as it's main rival, but also Chile which has also Peru as it's opponent.

How does a carrier integrate into these threats?
Quite well. Like the Dreadnouhts in the "good old days" they are powerfull "penis-extensions" with this sort of enviroment. Argentina and Brazil have managed to aquire ones and Chile was offered the HMS Hermes (eventually went to India) and Peru tried to buy the HMS Bulwark. About the actual usabilty of carriers in such a small countries you can speak in many ways, but if you understand the enviroment of the Latin America, then in fact even the modest type of naval airarm is an advantage agaisnt the opponent.

Are these threats outside of land based aircraft?
Yeas and no. None of the South american countries have a good longrange land based aircrafts able to fullfill the strike and Airdefence for the naval units. Argentinian Skyhawks where able to attack against Brazilian and Chilean warhsips even if those where of the range of land bases as they where launched from the carrier. And as the SAM assets of both Chilean and Brazilian navies where pretty inadequate, the effect of the Skyhaws shouldn't be underestimated.

Are the tempos needed going to be met by a Foch style carrier?
Yeas, as it's considerably bigger than the earlier light fleet carriers being used by Argentina and Brazil. The only difference is that now Brazil have the advantage over Argentina as the later has no carrier. If Argentina would have a carrier with better airassets than the Skyhawks, it would again resume the advantage it once had. Is it reasonable? Perhaps not if you look the matter in the eyes of non-latin american but apparently the wievs haven't changed. My quess that the only matter that prevents Argentina to field a new carrier is money...
 

contedicavour

New Member
If the purpose of a carrier is to create local advantage over any other South American navy, then I have 2 objections

(i) the other navies would do better to invest in second-hand DDGs, just as Chile has done with the ex Dutch Heemsmerk. There are now several Type 42s and 2 Audace DDGs available. These ships with Standard SM1 and Aspide or Sea Sparrow (or Sea Dart for the T42s) are enough to shoot down half a dozen carrier-embarked Skyhawks such as the Brazilian ones.

(ii) politically, Latin American countries are now very close to each other and historical conflicts such as Argentine vs Chile have died down. The only remaining hotspots are Chile vs Bolivia (hardly a naval confrontation) or Peru vs Ecuador (with Peru's navy being several times larger and more efficient) or Colombia vs Venezuela. I don't see Brazil or Argentina (the 2 countries which have or have had carriers) threatening anybody or being threatened by anybody.

cheers
 

kilo

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #54
If Argentina is really interested in getting an aircraft carrier they should try and get a deal like India got with the Admiral Gorshkov. Maybe a purchase of 24-36 rafales would convince France to give them the clemenceau. 12 going to the navy and the rest to the air force. Then they could finally get rid of Mirage IIIs and relegate A-4s and super etendards to an attack role. Probably not enough money for this though.
 

WillS

Member
If Argentina is really interested in getting an aircraft carrier they should try and get a deal like India got with the Admiral Gorshkov.
I think the last thing that the Argentinians (or anyone else) needs is a deal like the one India got with the Admiral Gorshkov. Cost overruns, constantly shifting delivery dates and capability gaps. Really, not a good idea.

WillS
www.boilingthefrog.co.uk
 

Musashi_kenshin

Active Member
Maybe a purchase of 24-36 rafales would convince France to give them the clemenceau. 12 going to the navy and the rest to the air force. Then they could finally get rid of Mirage IIIs and relegate A-4s and super etendards to an attack role. Probably not enough money for this though.
You're also assuming the French would deliberately try to piss the UK off when they're trying to get Anglo co-operation over projects like the future aircraft carrier. At the moment Argentina can't offer anything that France really wants.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
If Argentina is really interested in getting an aircraft carrier they should try and get a deal like India got with the Admiral Gorshkov. Maybe a purchase of 24-36 rafales would convince France to give them the clemenceau. 12 going to the navy and the rest to the air force. ....
I doubt Clemenceau is fit to restore to service. She was stripped of everything of value, & sent for scrapping in 2005. If it hadn't been for the fuss over the asbestos & other unpleasant substances aboard, her steel would have been re-used two years ago, but instead, she's been rusting at anchor.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
I doubt Clemenceau is fit to restore to service. She was stripped of everything of value, & sent for scrapping in 2005. If it hadn't been for the fuss over the asbestos & other unpleasant substances aboard, her steel would have been re-used two years ago, but instead, she's been rusting at anchor.
also the similar issue with the LPD which had to be sent back to France which Argentina were meant to have but said no because of the Asbestos problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouragan_class_landing_platform_dock
 

contedicavour

New Member
The Clemenceau's rusting hulk isn't going anywhere. I saw it rusting in Bretagne next to a lot of other old 50s and 60s destroyer escorts.

It is however Brazil that should receive some used Super Etendards as the French Navy receives more Rafales. Super Etendards with SEM modernization will certainly help beyond the very limited capabilities of the A4s.

cheers
 
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