alternative comparative analysis: LCA vs JF-17 / FC-1

[pshamim]

I must say that there is a clear similarity between the LCA and the JF-17. Both have engine problems. Supporters of both aircrafts think that there are no problems.

Kaveri will not be available as it has failed. Now Indians are inviting foreign manufacturers to submit proposals and help. No one knows as to how many more decades will pass before Kaveri becomes a reality. Yes GE is available but it is foreign and LCA is an indigenous product.

RD-93 is being denied by the Russians for JF-17 but Pakistanis are acting as if there is no problem and talk about so many other engines which can not be fitted on.

What I can hear a is a lot of patriotic and emotional talk in defending their Tejas and Thunders. But no one is being realistic.

 

[aaaditya]

I must say that there is a clear similarity between the LCA and the JF-17. Both have engine problems. Supporters of both aircrafts think that there are no problems.

Kaveri will not be available as it has failed. Now Indians are inviting foreign manufacturers to submit proposals and help. No one knows as to how many more decades will pass before Kaveri becomes a reality. Yes GE is available but it is foreign and LCA is an indigenous product.

RD-93 is being denied by the Russians for JF-17 but Pakistanis are acting as if there is no problem and talk about so many other engines which can not be fitted on.

What I can hear a is a lot of patriotic and emotional talk in defending their Tejas and Thunders. But no one is being realistic.

the tenders have been invited not for a new engine but for the company to serve as a consultant for the kaveri engine project.
i hope that you are not thinking that the winner will design a completely new engine based on an existing engine specifically for the lca.
the kaveri project cannot be considered as a total failure as long as the government is putting money in it.even if the kaveri project ends up as a failure the lca can be equipped with the uprated ge-f-414-in20 engine which ge has offered to india with full tot,this should serve the iaf very well though it will destroy the export potential of the lca.

 

[maglomanic]

What about a Chinese engine WS-13 for JF-17. i know it might take them some time (year or two) but certainly they are putting alot of effort into WS-10 and WS-13.
Also, i would like to see a clear indication from Russia barring chinese sell of JF-17 to Pakistan equipped with RD-93.

 

[crobato]

It may take a while to develop an engine such as the WS-13 and personally I don't expect to see it till the end of this decade, and for that reason I feel the same way to the Kaveri. Even the development of the WS-10A seems ardous and slow, even though it has recently passed a four month endurance test and has been powering flying Su-27 prototypes since 2002.

The Russians give a lot of contradictory messages about the RD-93 and it seems their position flipflops as often as John Kerry to whoever their audience is. Last I heard, some RD-93 deliveries have already begun this month from the 100 engine order China made earlier this year.

From what I believe is this. If India does not buy 126 MiG-29s in their upcoming fighter requirement and bought stuff like Mirage 2000s instead, you can be pretty sure that the Russians will sell the RD-93s and allow them on the Pakistani FC-1s. You scratch my back, I scratch yours. If not, it will be tit for tat.

 

[ajaybhutani]

It may take a while to develop an engine such as the WS-13 and personally I don't expect to see it till the end of this decade, and for that reason I feel the same way to the Kaveri. Even the development of the WS-10A seems ardous and slow, even though it has recently passed a four month endurance test and has been powering flying Su-27 prototypes since 2002.

The Russians give a lot of contradictory messages about the RD-93 and it seems their position flipflops as often as John Kerry to whoever their audience is. Last I heard, some RD-93 deliveries have already begun this month from the 100 engine order China made earlier this year.

From what I believe is this. If India does not buy 126 MiG-29s in their upcoming fighter requirement and bought stuff like Mirage 2000s instead, you can be pretty sure that the Russians will sell the RD-93s and allow them on the Pakistani FC-1s. You scratch my back, I scratch yours. If not, it will be tit for tat.

its not just about the small orders like 125 mig29. its much more than that.. what we are yet to even order( and will order only from russia ) is some 3-4 frigades, nuclear sub's TU22's .. money from indian purchases of brahmos( JV) and other joint projects. ). various stuff for the army.. like more tanks, rocket launchers. etc etc.. its a big big list and loosing MRCA wont be a big deal for russians are much more is in the pipeline..
india is the only big buyer for russia whom it can sell without strategic worries.. and so almost anyt tech can be sold.. its a big market for russia .. i dont think they will looose it for small stuff like 100 /200 RD93's

 

[aaaditya]

It may take a while to develop an engine such as the WS-13 and personally I don't expect to see it till the end of this decade, and for that reason I feel the same way to the Kaveri. Even the development of the WS-10A seems ardous and slow, even though it has recently passed a four month endurance test and has been powering flying Su-27 prototypes since 2002.

The Russians give a lot of contradictory messages about the RD-93 and it seems their position flipflops as often as John Kerry to whoever their audience is. Last I heard, some RD-93 deliveries have already begun this month from the 100 engine order China made earlier this year.

From what I believe is this. If India does not buy 126 MiG-29s in their upcoming fighter requirement and bought stuff like Mirage 2000s instead, you can be pretty sure that the Russians will sell the RD-93s and allow them on the Pakistani FC-1s. You scratch my back, I scratch yours. If not, it will be tit for tat.

india is investing nearly 30 billion dollars in the russian defence industry ,india has already purchased defence technology and services from russia worth 10 billion dollars of which 7 billion dollars worth have already been supplied the remaining is to be supplied by 2010,recently when the indian defence minister and prime minister visited russia an agreement was signed to acquire or jointly develop defence technology with russia worth another 10 billion dollars in the time frame of 2010-2020.

hence you can be rest assured ,the russia will not mind losing a couple of deals,as long as its prefferential customer is willing to fund its defence industry and to continue acquiring defence technology on a regular basis.

 

[webmaster]

As always a reminder:

Please stick to the TOPIC: alternative comparative analysis: LCA vs JF-17 / FC-1

Everyone lets leave the brags and boastful comments out of the discussion.

 

[aaaditya]

well here is an interesting news article which gives us an idea of the current status of the lca project and the future milestones:

Tejas maiden flight likely in June

Staff Reporter

Maiden flight to follow third prototype of Tejas
Production is at an advanced stage and ahead of schedule

BANGALORE: The maiden flight of the first production variant of the indigenously-developed supersonic Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, will take place in June next year.
The aircraft will be one of the eight being made under the limited series production (LSP) ordered by the Indian Air Force.
According to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Bangalore Complex Managing Director A.K. Saxena, the maiden flight would follow the third prototype of Tejas.
The production of the first Tejas under limited series production is at an advanced stage and ahead of schedule, Mr. Saxena said on the sidelines of a session on `Corporate social responsibility and global compact to improve competitiveness.' He said the LSP is based on the development of the second prototype of Tejas. The flight trials of this aircraft are satisfactory, he said.

here is the link:

http://www.hindu.com/2005/12/21/stories/2005122109261200.htm

 

[kilo_4que]

about time id say, this project has been so fragile that it hasnt got anywhere near completion for so long. Regardless of it being their first indegneous project, the time it has taken has been rediculous.

I personally am or shall i say was a fan of the LCA. I liked its Mirage like features and was amazed by its ultra light weight, but pitty it never evolved.

I think Indias counterparts are having much more success to say the least. Even with flawless prototype they are already mingling around with the design so much so that a fourth prototype has been unveiled. Yes to the public this is in the form of mock ups thought im sure the designs have been implement, only a matter of short time till we see it hit the skies.

 

[aaaditya]

about time id say, this project has been so fragile that it hasnt got anywhere near completion for so long. Regardless of it being their first indegneous project, the time it has taken has been rediculous.

I personally am or shall i say was a fan of the LCA. I liked its Mirage like features and was amazed by its ultra light weight, but pitty it never evolved.

I think Indias counterparts are having much more success to say the least. Even with flawless prototype they are already mingling around with the design so much so that a fourth prototype has been unveiled. Yes to the public this is in the form of mock ups thought im sure the designs have been implement, only a matter of short time till we see it hit the skies.

the project took just 20 years (of which the development aspect actually started from 1990 .)it took just 25 years to reach this stage and that too despite us sanctions.tell me which modern fourth generation combat aircraft project too less than 30 years(ef2000,jas39gripen,rafale etc),the european union,france,sweden all had combat aircraft development history and continuity which india did not have(the last combat aircraft thet they developed was the hf24marut way back in 1975) and also none of these countries had to face sanctions?

so the very fact the lca has reached this stage in just about 20-25 years is pretty impressive.and also india is seeing the benefit of the experience gained from the lca project now in the development of the hjt36(36months from the concept stage)and the hjt39.

 

[kilo_4que]

first and foremost i dont think the LCA is anywhere comparable to the likes of the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter. these are state of the art fighters.

Consequently, what major US sanctions have been imposed on India that it reduced productivity of the fighter so much, please elaborate.

I think the only nation that has been hit with so many sanctions is ure neighbour pakistan. With the mamoth sanctions imposed on them, they started so long after you and are so far ahead.

As far as im aware the super 7 project was initially started in 1991 but stopped immediately. It was resumed in 1997/98 and to date one could say that the project has taken 10 years. Already it is looking promising and I believe that a top end of 15 years would show the world a new fighter courtesy of the sinopak ventures.

Before picking up on the issue of sinopak, India hasnt been a lone player in the LCA since they have had vast amounts of inputs from Russia, France and Israel. That says it all

So looking at all the facts aaaditya, i dont think its something to be too pleased about since countries with lesser fortunes as yourself are far ahead in indegnous projects and the other nations that have taken the same amount of time as yourselves are those countries that have develped machines beyond our imaginations.

 

[webmaster]

Folks, we need to get back on to the TECHNICAL aspects of the fighters rather than their troubled history.

 

[kashifshahzad]

first and foremost i dont think the LCA is anywhere comparable to the likes of the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter. these are state of the art fighters.

Consequently, what major US sanctions have been imposed on India that it reduced productivity of the fighter so much, please elaborate.

I think the only nation that has been hit with so many sanctions is ure neighbour pakistan. With the mamoth sanctions imposed on them, they started so long after you and are so far ahead.

As far as im aware the super 7 project was initially started in 1991 but stopped immediately. It was resumed in 1997/98 and to date one could say that the project has taken 10 years. Already it is looking promising and I believe that a top end of 15 years would show the world a new fighter courtesy of the sinopak ventures.

Before picking up on the issue of sinopak, India hasnt been a lone player in the LCA since they have had vast amounts of inputs from Russia, France and Israel. That says it all

So looking at all the facts aaaditya, i dont think its something to be too pleased about since countries with lesser fortunes as yourself are far ahead in indegnous projects and the other nations that have taken the same amount of time as yourselves are those countries that have develped machines beyond our imaginations.

And I also want to add that LCA was meant to replace the ageing fleet of migs which are way ahead of their life.Now this is the time that India is spending billion of dollars on the replacement of AC's.What did really India got was the vast so called experience in the Air Craft field.But it is most important that the projest should have an out put rahter then the experience.
Aaaditya when you are saying that there were sanctions on India and it affected the LCA project Lol it was Pakistan which was directly affected by the sanctions India was and is getting its defence materials from Russia so your statement is baseless.
Or simply I should say you are never going to recognise that LCA took longer time then it should have taken then ok LCA completed in that much time which it was supposed to be completed in and can someone here tell me that is there any export markt of LCA.PAF has already found markets for thunder and it will also replace the ageing fleet of Mirage,A-5s and F-7s.

Folks, we need to get back on to the TECHNICAL aspects of the fighters rather than their troubled history.

Webby there are already defence professionals which can discuss its technical sides some members here are not that much experienced and they only know other aspects of the militery.Just chill they will be professionals let them take sometime for that.

 

[ajaybhutani]

I think the only nation that has been hit with so many sanctions is ure neighbour pakistan. With the mamoth sanctions imposed on them, they started so long after you and are so far ahead.

1. what plane is pakistan developing ?? and thats different from funding for a dev facility and getting a production factory in return.
2. and how are they so far ahead ??

As far as im aware the super 7 project was initially started in 1991 but stopped immediately. It was resumed in 1997/98 and to date one could say that the project has taken 10 years. Already it is looking promising and I believe that a top end of 15 years would show the world a new fighter courtesy of the sinopak ventures.

just a simple check..
1. look at the composite content of the plane.... does it have any and look at the contents in likes of rafale ef2000.
2. the airframe was redesigned recently. but the plane is ahead in dev than lca whose pv's are flying..
3. whats the current FBW of the plane . the flying ones( dont tell me that its planned with this and this.. tell me what the test planes are flying with.. )..
4. its statically stable.... i.e much less agile.

Before picking up on the issue of sinopak, India hasnt been a lone player in the LCA since they have had vast amounts of inputs from Russia, France and Israel. That says it all

and china was never helped by russia or israel right.. ??

So looking at all the facts aaaditya, i dont think its something to be too pleased about since countries with lesser fortunes as yourself are far ahead in indegnous projects and the other nations that have taken the same amount of time as yourselves are those countries that have develped machines beyond our imaginations.

i didnt see a single fact in all u wrote .. its just what u think.. and that too without a single link to suppport it.. saying that jf-17 is better or lca is a waste wont make a difference. u need to give evidences for it.

 

[ajaybhutani]

And I also want to add that LCA was meant to replace the ageing fleet of migs which are way ahead of their life.Now this is the time that India is spending billion of dollars on the replacement of AC's.What did really India got was the vast so called experience in the Air Craft field.But it is most important that the projest should have an out put rahter then the experience.
Aaaditya when you are saying that there were sanctions on India and it affected the LCA project Lol it was Pakistan which was directly affected by the sanctions India was and is getting its defence materials from Russia so your statement is baseless.

i dont like a logic that india is behind because of sanctions.. thats just an excuse. at the same time i dont see a logic of comparing paksitan with india. in this regard .. jf 17 is not a paksitan's project.. please tell me one component that pakistan is developing in jf17.. ?? just one..

Or simply I should say you are never going to recognise that LCA took longer time then it should have taken then ok LCA completed in that much time which it was supposed to be completed in and can someone here tell me that is there any export markt of LCA.PAF has already found markets for thunder and it will also replace the ageing fleet of Mirage,A-5s and F-7s.

rafale hasnt found a single export market yet.. does that make rafale an inferior plane. while the f7 is sold in so much quantities.. and so its better .. ??


Webby there are already defence professionals which can discuss its technical sides some members here are not that much experienced and they only know other aspects of the militery.Just chill they will be professionals let them take sometime for that.[/QUOTE]

 

[aaaditya]

first and foremost i dont think the LCA is anywhere comparable to the likes of the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter. these are state of the art fighters.

Consequently, what major US sanctions have been imposed on India that it reduced productivity of the fighter so much, please elaborate.

I think the only nation that has been hit with so many sanctions is ure neighbour pakistan. With the mamoth sanctions imposed on them, they started so long after you and are so far ahead.

As far as im aware the super 7 project was initially started in 1991 but stopped immediately. It was resumed in 1997/98 and to date one could say that the project has taken 10 years. Already it is looking promising and I believe that a top end of 15 years would show the world a new fighter courtesy of the sinopak ventures.

Before picking up on the issue of sinopak, India hasnt been a lone player in the LCA since they have had vast amounts of inputs from Russia, France and Israel. That says it all

So looking at all the facts aaaditya, i dont think its something to be too pleased about since countries with lesser fortunes as yourself are far ahead in indegnous projects and the other nations that have taken the same amount of time as yourselves are those countries that have develped machines beyond our imaginations.

maybe you dont know,but usa stopped the sale and the after sales support of the engine (ge-f-404) and the actuators(moog) for several years.

however the biggest blow was that they confisticated thefly by wire flight control system software for which they acted as consultants and which was sent to usa for flight testing on an f-16vista aircraft,the flight control system had to be developed from scratch and the current fcs has nothing to do with the original one.there are also reports that the indian scientists were harrased.

 

[kashifshahzad]

maybe you dont know,but usa stopped the sale and the after sales support of the engine (ge-f-404) and the actuators(moog) for several years.

however the biggest blow was that they confisticated thefly by wire flight control system software for which they acted as consultants and which was sent to usa for flight testing on an f-16vista aircraft,the flight control system had to be developed from scratch and the current fcs has nothing to do with the original one.there are also reports that the indian scientists were harrased.

Aaaditya when India knew that India cant get US engines and the russian engines were and are easily available to India then what was the reason that India designed its AC to just fit only to the US GE engine.If this was the case then India must have changed the design after the nuke tests when the sanction were imposed.
A question which I ask to India is that Russia is a close ally of India and they can also get any kind of defencive materials from there in the war time too so why did they inducted the US engine in the plan this seems ridiculous

 

[vrus]

Kashif you make a point; in my opinion, even the american engines should not have been imported. That would not make it indigenous. I think the reason was to better Indo-US relations, but then I'm sure someone else will have a better reason!

Even getting a russian does not make it indigenous, does it ?
Russia can have its decisions and will altered, so it is not wise to say they will support India during a war, as was seen, ISRO wanted to import the Russian cryogenic upper stage, but US intervention caused only 7 to be purchased and prevented ToT. They should have started R&D on a gas-turbine engine much earlier.... that might have made a better impression of the industry.

Aditya, your rite about the fly-by-wire system, but is there any use for it now if it was returned ? Was ther any negotiation?

Is the thunder prject only a Sino-Pak initiative, or is there any other nation involved ?

 

[kashifshahzad]

Kashif you make a point; in my opinion, even the american engines should not have been imported. That would not make it indigenous. I think the reason was to better Indo-US relations, but then I'm sure someone else will have a better reason!

Even getting a russian does not make it indigenous, does it ?
Russia can have its decisions and will altered, so it is not wise to say they will support India during a war, as was seen, ISRO wanted to import the Russian cryogenic upper stage, but US intervention caused only 7 to be purchased and prevented ToT. They should have started R&D on a gas-turbine engine much earlier.... that might have made a better impression of the industry.

Aditya, your rite about the fly-by-wire system, but is there any use for it now if it was returned ? Was ther any negotiation?

Is the thunder prject only a Sino-Pak initiative, or is there any other nation involved ?

Matey there no such thing like indignous in LCA now if India didnt succeded in the engine development then India can easily have engines from Russia there are no hurdles in this.I know the realtion between the India and US are improving but the country which is supporing you in all aspects of defence why should you prefer them.India just want to get the taste of new US planes but it will become a pudding and India would have to maintain all those types of AC on an expencive price.
I think there is no other nation Involved in the Sino-Pak thunder project except then that of engines which are Russian but i hope it would be solved in the near future