Air Defense for Armored Formations

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pie1536

New Member
air defence

Does this system, Pantsyr-S1 .. detect high heat to operate it sensor.. if so...at some testing groun if use dummy plane... might not hit the target. So this system can be manipulated.. jet plane can flush flare to override the sensor detection in order to avoid it.

I like to see the vulcan gun in action ... it is use radar and can solve the detected object an seconds... and some weapond that oeprated manually.. like the skyguard...yet this syatem also can be make oeprating by radar sensor..semi-manually... But these only for low range air defence... for medium range I like to see the JERNAS from Britain...

Plz reply...
 
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FutureTank

Banned Member
Ths said:
I once counted the anti-aircraft component of a Soviet Division assigned at different levels and found - if memory serves me - that about 20-25 % was dedicated air defence. .
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Apparently due to shortage of funding the Tunguska is not being delivered fast enougth to the 'surviving' Russian divisions. In view of this I have been told that a second Shilka M batery is added to regiments.
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Attacking infantry and vehicles up to IFV should normally be for emergency only.
The ammo is too important to use it regularly and the crew stops concentrating on the skye.
But you are right that when some fire support is needed and nothing else is available a AAA-vehicle works fine. :)
 
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FutureTank

Banned Member
eckherl said:
Lehat - this round is still being tested, and yes it will be for the 120mm.
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If you only knew the story behind Lehat!
Do you have any idea how many engineers from Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and other former republics now work full time or part time in Israel?!

This reminds me....the Russian 125mm rounds don't make that much of a 'splash' when fired because the motor engages after the round leaves the barrel due to low heat tollerance (+/- 50 degrees) of the guidance component. It is therefore even harder to detect by a helicopter then a KE round.
 
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Big-E

Banned Member
FutureTank said:
If you only knew the story behind Lehat!
Do you have any idea how many engineers from Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and other former republics now work full time or part time in Israel?!
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Is this because they are Jewish? Most Israelies are from the FSU.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
FutureTank said:
And does it come with a free air search radar? Is there any practical way to visually search for air targets using tank optics at 8000m?! Seems like another 'upgrade' sale.
I can just see the name for the anti-helo FCS 'Chamelion'! One set of eyes looks close and to the right, and another far and to the left :)
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No, of course not. It would be ridiculously expensive and make that tank in that rubbish Eddie Murphy movie (Best defence?) from the early 80's look like a good idea!! :)

The weapon I was thinking of is primarily designed for "long ranged" pin point strikes, hence the laser designation (sort of a "poor man's" Copperhead), but if a helo should be stupid enough to fly into view, lookout!!!
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
FutureTank said:
If you only knew the story behind Lehat!
Do you have any idea how many engineers from Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and other former republics now work full time or part time in Israel?!

This reminds me....the Russian 125mm rounds don't make that much of a 'splash' when fired because the motor engages after the round leaves the barrel due to low heat tollerance (+/- 50 degrees) of the guidance component. It is therefore even harder to detect by a helicopter then a KE round.
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Yes there alot of Russian engineers in Israel, and I have heard that some of them have been very instrumental in the design of Lehat, along with a few other items.

By the time a helicopter pilot see`s a maingun KE penetrator being fired at him, he will be toast.
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
That's it.
Let's take the DM53/63 fired from a L/55. It leaves the tube with more than 1750 m/s.
Now calculate how fast you have to react if you see the smoke and fire of the shot (And don't forget the shock second). ;)
 
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kams

New Member
pie1536 said:
Does this system, Pantsyr-S1 .. detect high heat to operate it sensor.. if so...at some testing groun if use dummy plane... might not hit the target. So this system can be manipulated.. jet plane can flush flare to override the sensor detection in order to avoid it.

Plz reply...
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Pantysir has two independent guidence channels, Radar and Electro-optic. So its not only thermal imaging.
 
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FutureTank

Banned Member
Big-E said:
Is this because they are Jewish? Most Israelies are from the FSU.
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About 1.6 million Jews have migrated to Israel from FSU since the 70s.

Since 1991 some 300k on-Jews have also moved to Israel (this by the way compounded problems with Palestinians due to competition for work (and the real reason for Intefada proposed in 2002 but ignored by glbal media).

Many of the skilled defence scientists working in Israel do so 'part-time' since there are daily flights to FSU states. Most are not Jewish. They can suplement their lower income n Israel working on projects and still keep jobs in home countries. Quite a few FSU manufacturers have informal and indirect relationships with Israeli counterparts via holding companies, etc. Much of the recent Indian sales were brockered by Israelis who have a long history withIndia, and will provide substantial technical support for integrating mods Indians wnted with some Russian systems.

Btw, US DoD knws about it and very much supports it. India is much better at integratingnto US view of global free marketsthen China or any of the Islamic countries, and has ben able to avoid many issues of technology transfer.
 
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FutureTank

Banned Member
Waylander said:
calculate how fast you have to react if you see the smoke and fire of the shot (And don't forget the shock second). ;)
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Ok, we probably need a helo pilot here, but I note that helicopter do not operate individually, and they do have all sorts of sensors to provide warning.

It seems to me that an acoustic sensor coupled with a link to the ballistic computer and a flight control over-ride would probably 'jerk' the helo a few metres as an automated response to being fired on, but without significantly disturbing the pilot's control of the helo.
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
FutureTank said:
About 1.6 million Jews have migrated to Israel from FSU since the 70s.

Since 1991 some 300k on-Jews have also moved to Israel (this by the way compounded problems with Palestinians due to competition for work (and the real reason for Intefada proposed in 2002 but ignored by glbal media).

Many of the skilled defence scientists working in Israel do so 'part-time' since there are daily flights to FSU states. Most are not Jewish. They can suplement their lower income n Israel working on projects and still keep jobs in home countries. Quite a few FSU manufacturers have informal and indirect relationships with Israeli counterparts via holding companies, etc. Much of the recent Indian sales were brockered by Israelis who have a long history withIndia, and will provide substantial technical support for integrating mods Indians wnted with some Russian systems.

Btw, US DoD knws about it and very much supports it. India is much better at integratingnto US view of global free marketsthen China or any of the Islamic countries, and has ben able to avoid many issues of technology transfer.
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So alot of this type of defence work is being conducted by non Jewish people.
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
FutureTank said:
Ok, we probably need a helo pilot here, but I note that helicopter do not operate individually, and they do have all sorts of sensors to provide warning.

It seems to me that an acoustic sensor coupled with a link to the ballistic computer and a flight control over-ride would probably 'jerk' the helo a few metres as an automated response to being fired on, but without significantly disturbing the pilot's control of the helo.
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Provide warning of what? You laser him and 2 seconds later the round is there. No active radar or so.

As to the acoustic sensor. You are aware of the fact that the round is travelling with round about mach 5? ;)

Be sure that I don't want to claim that tanks and IFVs are the ultimate helicopter killers.
But they can give you some headache, especially in a very complex theater of operations or when the pilots are not that aware of the capabilities of a tank.

This video shows at 2:38 a helicopter being engaged by a Merkava Mrk.IV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T-GKplzI0k
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
FutureTank said:
Ok, we probably need a helo pilot here, but I note that helicopter do not operate individually, and they do have all sorts of sensors to provide warning.

It seems to me that an acoustic sensor coupled with a link to the ballistic computer and a flight control over-ride would probably 'jerk' the helo a few metres as an automated response to being fired on, but without significantly disturbing the pilot's control of the helo.
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Please keep in mind that this would be a last resort option that we have if a attack helicopter poses an immediate threat to you or to your unit.
If attack helicopters are just traveling thru your area and if they are not sizing you up for a tank kill, the golden rule would be to leave them alone because you are correct, if you see one then the chances are that others are in the area as well. While you are engaging them you would be manuvering into a area that he cannot see you or engage you.
Even if you miss him, he will also be taking evasive action so that he doesn`t take a hit.
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It is really confusing to talk in two different threads abput the same topic.
Maybe we should decide to stay here? :)
 
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