Admiral Kusnetzov Vs Charles De Gaulle What Is More Capable And Powerful ??

[kilo]

I'm confused as to were the discussion is going. Is the argument whether the US should use fighters in an air defense role or is it whether Russia should use it's fighters in an air defense role.

Also to get back to the topic of a carrier battle. I think we should all take a moment to think about the complexities of the battle, and don't think about just ships and strike packages. Think about all the individual efforts of the men. Escort commanders, fighter pilots,helicopter pilots, radar operators, submarines in the area, air warfare officers, and ordinary seaman. anyone and everyone you can think of. the variables are enormous all playing a part in the outcome. How can we sit at are computers and predict the thought process's of all those individuals. A carrier battle or any large naval battle will be a crazy place. I don't know if this adds anything to the discussion but it is an interesting thing to think about.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

It all depends on which carrier has not only more jets and weapons, but who also which has more capable weapons and fighters. I don't know how many SAMs and air defense weapons these carriers have and I don't know which is better the SU-33 or the Rafale.

 

[Salty Dog]

It all depends on which carrier has not only more jets and weapons, but who also which has more capable weapons and fighters. I don't know how many SAMs and air defense weapons these carriers have and I don't know which is better the SU-33 or the Rafale.

Technical aspects aside, aircraft employment also may depend on fleet doctrine and policy.

Some carriers are capable of amphibious operations and may change their aircraft loadout/configuration.

In the case of US Navy carriers, their indigenous AAW systems are for short range self defense/point defense (NSSMS, RAM, CIWS), so they are highly dependent on Aegis CG/DDG escorts for long range AAW protection.

If we center the discussion on one or two classes of aircraft carrier we might get somewhere (as this topic is about). However for all carriers in worldwide operations, there are just too many variables to consider.

Here are the hardkill AAW systems:

Charles de Gaulle:
Sylver 8-cell VLS (x4) - Aster 15 (30 km)
Sadral 6-cell launcher (x2) - Mistral (4 km)
Nexter 20F2 CIWS (x8) - 20mm-720 rounds/minute (8 km)

Admiral Kusnetsov:
Klinok ADAM 8-cell VLS (x24) - SA-N-9 "Gauntlet" (15 km)
Kashtan ADGM (x8) - SA-N-11 "Grison" missile (8 km), 2x30mm gun-12,000 rounds/minute (1.5km)
AK 630 CIWS (x6) - 30mm gun 6000 round/minute (4 km)

The Admiral Kusnetsov is quite a bit more heavily defended, reflecting the multiple system redundancy practiced by the (previous) Soviet Navy.

 

[contedicavour]

What are the air to ground capabilities of the embarked navalized Flankers ? In air to air mode the MICA IR and EM are very good matches vs R73 and R77.
The French carrier also has longer autonomy since it is a CVN.

cheers

 

[Chrom]

You must also consider sensor/information sources that are external to the CVBG. The Tu-22/95s are will most likely be picked up as they go wheels-up. The longer the aircraft launch range the better as this allows the CVBG to reconfigure it's layered air defense assets. The CVBG at sea is in a heightened alert status anyway especially if a hostile posture exists.

I do not see how the Su-33 factors into a CVBG attack.

As escort for T-22/95 in final stage. Imagine Kuznecov class carrier 1000-1100km away from US CVBG, providing SU-33 cover for Tu-95/Tu-22 up to AShM's launch point (about 450-600km from US CVBG). That point is at very edge of CVBG fighters reach, so USA fighters will be at great disadvantage even if they manage to encounter russian bombers - which will be also quite hard due to, again, limited range of CVBG fighters.

Only F-14 had decent chances to intercept something at that range - and even then it would be quite hard to achieve decent dencity due to constant need of refueling.

 

[Chrom]

What are the air to ground capabilities of the embarked navalized Flankers ? In air to air mode the MICA IR and EM are very good matches vs R73 and R77.
The French carrier also has longer autonomy since it is a CVN.

cheers

There are no AG capabilities in original Su-33 besides most basic ones with unguided weapon. The lack of USSR missile cruisers autonomy stress one thing - USSR didnt planned to use them as force projection at all, rather as AD support near russian land bases territory.

Simply upgrade to Su-27SM level allow use of usual range of AG and "lighter" AShM's (Kh-59, etc) weapon up to about 100-150km range.

No big monsters like Moskit or Yahont of course.

 

[Salty Dog]

As escort for T-22/95 in final stage. Imagine Kuznecov class carrier 1000-1100km away from US CVBG, providing SU-33 cover for Tu-95/Tu-22 up to AShM's launch point (about 450-600km from US CVBG). That point is at very edge of CVBG fighters reach, so USA fighters will be at great disadvantage even if they manage to encounter russian bombers - which will be also quite hard due to, again, limited range of CVBG fighters.

Only F-14 had decent chances to intercept something at that range - and even then it would be quite hard to achieve decent dencity due to constant need of refueling.

Given your stated parameters The Su-33 will need to escort the Tu-95/22 group some 500Km from the Kusnetsov. About the same range as the F/A-18. I feel the Su-33 range will be even more limited as they may not be able to STOBAR launch with any appreciable fuel and/or weapons load and even if you used Su-33 buddy-refueling you still only have some 12 Su-33 embarked in the first place to work with.

You also mentioned "limited range of CVBG fighters" - this goes both ways.

I don't know how you define "the very edge of fighter reach". The F/A-18s will be in CAP stations on the AAW threat axis 24/7 supported by E-2 and buddy tankers. And even if the CAP were just some 300 Km from the US carrier, they can close the gap to any hostile intruders in hurry.

 

[contedicavour]

There are no AG capabilities in original Su-33 besides most basic ones with unguided weapon. The lack of USSR missile cruisers autonomy stress one thing - USSR didnt planned to use them as force projection at all, rather as AD support near russian land bases territory.

Simply upgrade to Su-27SM level allow use of usual range of AG and "lighter" AShM's (Kh-59, etc) weapon up to about 100-150km range.

No big monsters like Moskit or Yahont of course.

Thank you, very interesting information.
Then in the hypothetical confrontation with a De Gaulle (the thread's title) the Russians wouldn't stand a chance. The Rafale (not the very first batch of 12, but the newer ones) are equipped with ASMP cruise missile, a lot more than 150km range...

cheers

 

[Chrom]

Given your stated parameters The Su-33 will need to escort the Tu-95/22 group some 500Km from the Kusnetsov. About the same range as the F/A-18. I feel the Su-33 range will be even more limited as they may not be able to STOBAR launch with any appreciable fuel and/or weapons load and even if you used Su-33 buddy-refueling you still only have some 12 Su-33 embarked in the first place to work with.

You also mentioned "limited range of CVBG fighters" - this goes both ways.

I don't know how you define "the very edge of fighter reach". The F/A-18s will be in CAP stations on the AAW threat axis 24/7 supported by E-2 and buddy tankers. And even if the CAP were just some 300 Km from the US carrier, they can close the gap to any hostile intruders in hurry.

Ofc, this goes both way. But SU-33 have longer reach than F-18. Su-33 have comparable range to F-14, and have BIG advantage of knowing exactly time & place for attack, so not wasting any fuel loitering or just plain flying to wrongly "predicted" interception point.

Btw, buddy tankers will not work well due to, again, very long range. They will spend all its fuel while reaching 500km range, and will have no fuel for buddy refueling. Also, buddy refueling of that scale even at mid-300km range will greatly reduce CVBG effective fighters availability and put big strain on CVBG logistic.

Either way you look, even IF F-18/F-14 will manage to meet Tu-22/T-95 in time - so more important will be Su-33 cover. Get my point?


Again, keep in mind - Tu-95/Tu-22 launching point is 450-600km from US CVBG.

 

[Salty Dog]

Ofc, this goes both way. But SU-33 have longer reach than F-18. Su-33 have comparable range to F-14, and have BIG advantage of knowing exactly time & place for attack, so not wasting any fuel loitering or just plain flying to wrongly "predicted" interception point.

Btw, buddy tankers will not work well due to, again, very long range. They will spend all its fuel while reaching 500km range, and will have no fuel for buddy refueling. Also, buddy refueling of that scale even at mid-300km range will greatly reduce CVBG effective fighters availability and put big strain on CVBG logistic.

Either way you look, even IF F-18/F-14 will manage to meet Tu-22/T-95 in time - so more important will be Su-33 cover. Get my point?


Again, keep in mind - Tu-95/Tu-22 launching point is 450-600km from US CVBG.

Sorry mate, CAP is made to loiter. They can be pulled back for buddy refueling.

You arguments are based on your perception that the F/A-18 has shorter legs than the Su-33. There are solutions to extend range and onstation time for USV CVBG aircraft.

I´m not sure what you mean by a "wrongly predicted intercept point". As I mentioned prevoiusly the Tu-22/95 are already in the system once they go wheels up from their airfields. The E2 will have this information.

I also do not agree with your statement "mid-300km range will greatly reduce CVBG effective fighters availability and put big strain on CVBG logistic". How did you reach that conclusion? There are plenty of air wing assets available for AAW defense.

 

[Chrom]

Sorry mate, CAP is made to loiter. They can be pulled back for buddy refueling.

You arguments are based on your perception that the F/A-18 has shorter legs than the Su-33. There are solutions to extend range and onstation time for USV CVBG aircraft.

I´m not sure what you mean by a "wrongly predicted intercept point". As I mentioned prevoiusly the Tu-22/95 are already in the system once they go wheels up from their airfields. The E2 will have this information.

I also do not agree with your statement "mid-300km range will greatly reduce CVBG effective fighters availability and put big strain on CVBG logistic". How did you reach that conclusion? There are plenty of air wing assets available for AAW defense.

Pulling back for buddy refueling - require time. The time what can be missed in time of attack. Wrongly predicted point means what Tu-95 may enter 500km mark one way or another, it is hard to predict exact entering point BEFORE they enter protected airspace - they can change vector any time. Defending fighters will be forced to fly to new, differently "predicted" interception point.

Moreover, they can make a circle around protected airspace, forcing defending CVBG fighters to uselessly burning fuel trying to follow.

E2 is not wonder weapon, it can hardly reach 500km mark even against such big targets as Tu-95.

For 300km mark... Ok, suggest a way to keep CONSTANT fighters screen at 300km from CVBG. I see only one possibility - constant buddy-buddy refueling. So, instead of having say all 80 F-18 loitering at 300km, half of them will take-off, buddy-refuel, land, refuel, take-off, etc... All day.

But again, this is just theoretical scenarios you may or may not agree.

However, in any case, you cant deny usefulness of Su-33 in escort role.

 

[Salty Dog]

Pulling back for buddy refueling - require time. The time what can be missed in time of attack. Wrongly predicted point means what Tu-95 may enter 500km mark one way or another, it is hard to predict exact entering point BEFORE they enter protected airspace - they can change vector any time. Defending fighters will be forced to fly to new, differently "predicted" interception point.

Moreover, they can make a circle around protected airspace, forcing defending CVBG fighters to uselessly burning fuel trying to follow.

E2 is not wonder weapon, it can hardly reach 500km mark even against such big targets as Tu-95.

For 300km mark... Ok, suggest a way to keep CONSTANT fighters screen at 300km from CVBG. I see only one possibility - constant buddy-buddy refueling. So, instead of having say all 80 F-18 loitering at 300km, half of them will take-off, buddy-refuel, land, refuel, take-off, etc... All day.

But again, this is just theoretical scenarios you may or may not agree.

However, in any case, you cant deny usefulness of Su-33 in escort role.

Any changes to the Tu-22/95 attack vectors, especially if they circle around the CVBG will burn quite a bit more fuel than keeping CAP station. I doubt the Tu22/95 package with Su-33 in tow have that fuel load, unless they are on a one way mission.

You can not accept that CAP can stay aloft and reach points in the AAW defensive airspace to meet incoming aircraft. You also forgot about the alert aircraft on deck. You don't put all tha aircraft up in CAP, that would be ridiculous. There will probably be 2 F/A-18 each in 2 CAP stations along the threat axis. They can be refueled for two cycles. Others will be on Alert 5.

You are trying to define an intercept point which is in fact an infinite number of points in space constantly changing. So what are you trying to prove?

We can go on with debating the fine points of attacking/defending a CVBG by Tu-22/95. The USN CVBG has practiced AAW defense against such attacks for years.

The E2 can see a Tu-22/95 at 650km with the APS-145. Even better once the newer APY-9 comes online.

I wouldn't use the word "escort" for the fighters. "Cover" is more appropriate as that is what they would do.

 

[Chrom]

Any changes to the Tu-22/95 attack vectors, especially if they circle around the CVBG will burn quite a bit more fuel than keeping CAP station. I doubt the Tu22/95 package with Su-33 in tow have that fuel load, unless they are on a one way mission.

The beautiful thing - Su-33 dont need to follow bombers. They can meet them at known (for them, not for CVBG defending fighters) point. Whereas CVBG defending fighters will be forced to always lead for bombers interception. If they dont - bombers will simply close enough without fighters cover and launch AShM's.

You can not accept that CAP can stay aloft and reach points in the AAW defensive airspace to meet incoming aircraft. You also forgot about the alert aircraft on deck. You don't put all tha aircraft up in CAP, that would be ridiculous. There will probably be 2 F/A-18 each in 2 CAP stations along the threat axis.

2??? I mean WHOLE TWO fighters to stop the swarm of Tu-95/Tu-22 bombers, possible covered by 25+ Su-33 ??? Common, to be effective 300km screen should have at least 20+ fighters, and even then it is barery enough against 20+ Su-33 - and at the same time they should somehow stop swarm of bombers TOO.

P.S. Remember, for fighters at deck it will be already to later to take off when E-2 detected Tu-22M. Only fighters in 300km screen toward incoming attack will have enough time to intercept bombers.

They can be refueled for two cycles. Others will be on Alert 5.

Again, just few aircrafts are useless. A large number of aircrafts in screen will require also large number of aircrafts for buddy-buddy refueling. Aircrafts what cant be used in defending CVBG when needed.

You are trying to define an intercept point which is in fact an infinite number of points in space constantly changing. So what are you trying to prove?

What defending fighters will be forced to follow that "constantly changing" point if they want to meet attacking bombers in time. And lets remember, they cant be refueled while following. And they dont have that much indurance compared to bombers - shift predicted point 400km in different direction - and they will definitely run out of fuel.

We can go on with debating the fine points of attacking/defending a CVBG by Tu-22/95. The USN CVBG has practiced AAW defense against such attacks for years.

And USSR forces practiced attacking US CVBG for years. And?

The E2 can see a Tu-22/95 at 650km with the APS-145. Even better once the newer APY-9 comes online.

We talk mainly about USSR time. Even then, EW will reduce effective detection range.

I wouldn't use the word "escort" for the fighters. "Cover" is more appropriate as that is what they would do.

Both are good imho, and both could be done. Either way, i'm glad you agree they could provide something to Tu-22M/Tu-95

 

[kilo]

Salty Dog why are you so intent on expending a large number fighter attack in a CAP when they could go and strike the the main enemy force; especially when your own force is defended by 100s if not 1000+ SAMs? Why mess around so much with defence? Just go take the fight to the enemy.

 

[Salty Dog]

The beautiful thing - Su-33 dont need to follow bombers. They can meet them at known (for them, not for CVBG defending fighters) point. Whereas CVBG defending fighters will be forced to always lead for bombers interception. If they dont - bombers will simply close enough without fighters cover and launch AShM's.

2??? I mean WHOLE TWO fighters to stop the swarm of Tu-95/Tu-22 bombers, possible covered by 25+ Su-33 ??? Common, to be effective 300km screen should have at least 20+ fighters, and even then it is barery enough against 20+ Su-33 - and at the same time they should somehow stop swarm of bombers TOO.

P.S. Remember, for fighters at deck it will be already to later to take off when E-2 detected Tu-22M. Only fighters in 300km screen toward incoming attack will have enough time to intercept bombers.

Again, just few aircrafts are useless. A large number of aircrafts in screen will require also large number of aircrafts for buddy-buddy refueling. Aircrafts what cant be used in defending CVBG when needed.
What defending fighters will be forced to follow that "constantly changing" point if they want to meet attacking bombers in time. And lets remember, they cant be refueled while following. And they dont have that much indurance compared to bombers - shift predicted point 400km in different direction - and they will definitely run out of fuel.

And USSR forces practiced attacking US CVBG for years. And?

We talk mainly about USSR time. Even then, EW will reduce effective detection range.


Both are good imho, and both could be done. Either way, i'm glad you agree they could provide something to Tu-22M/Tu-95

Well mate, you are way off base with the USN layered air defense scheme of a CVBG. I suggest you read up on that.

"Whereas CVBG defending fighters will be forced to always lead for bombers interception. If they dont - bombers will simply close enough without fighters cover and launch AShM's." - Just what is so difficult about this? So now you are sending the Tu-22/95 w/o fighter cover?? It makes no difference if the Tu-22/95 raid has fighter cover or not. CAP and alert fighters will do their job.

"swarm of Tu-95/Tu-22 bombers, possible covered by 25+ Su-33 ??? Common, to be effective 300km screen should have at least 20+ fighters, and even then it is barery enough against 20+ Su-33 - and at the same time they should somehow stop swarm of bombers TOO." - No problem mate. If you read my comment correctly there are (4) fighters in 2 CAP stations. Once the raid is detected, again once they go wheels-up, the alert fighters go airborne. The incoming raid will have a welcoming party all set to receive them. And now you are bringing large numbers of Su-33 into the fray?? The Admiral Kusnetsov embarks about 12 Su-33. Where are you going to find enough room to hold 30+ Su-33?? How are you going to STOBAR them all in the air and refuel them to get the long range (500+ Km) you mention???Certainly you need to make a trade off between fuel and weapons?? Which will be sacrificed??

"Common, to be effective 300km screen should have at least 20+ fighters" - This is covered by the "welcoming party" mentioned above which consists of CAP and alert fighters. And where did you get this 20+ fighters from??? And what do you mean by screen??

"And USSR forces practiced attacking US CVBG for years. And?" - Great!! You would think they have it right by now. By they way, how are they getting their targetting information??

The CVBG fighters may not get all the attacking bombers, but they can certainly reduce the number of Tu-22/95, force the remaining bombers to launch their ASM at maximum (less than ideal) ranges with little or unreliable target location data, or even force the remaining bombers to return to base.

Aircraft are just the outer layer for CVBG AAW defense. Aegis is the next.

Just what EW assets will reduce the effective detection range??

 

[Salty Dog]

Salty Dog why are you so intent on expending a large number fighter attack in a CAP when they could go and strike the the main enemy force; especially when your own force is defended by 100s if not 1000+ SAMs? Why mess around so much with defence? Just go take the fight to the enemy.

The Kusnetsov battlegroup @ 1000 Km is a bit out of range. They also have SS-N-19s which we need to keep at arms length.

 

[Salty Dog]

I suppose we should be discussing the Kusnetsov and the Charles de Gualle vice USN-Russia. Sorry mates for getting off-track!!

 

[Chrom]

Well mate, you are way off base with the USN layered air defense scheme of a CVBG. I suggest you read up on that.

"Whereas CVBG defending fighters will be forced to always lead for bombers interception. If they dont - bombers will simply close enough without fighters cover and launch AShM's." - Just what is so difficult about this? So now you are sending the Tu-22/95 w/o fighter cover?? It makes no difference if the Tu-22/95 raid has fighter cover or not. CAP and alert fighters will do their job.

I repeat, alert fighters will not have enouth time to reach 500km range. Simple as that. Particulary Tu-22 is able to supersonic aproach last 400-500km before launch, while even F-14 dont have enough fuel for such long supersonic aproach. F-18 is at the edge of its range even at subsonic speed. Remember, Tu-22 is detected 600-700km aways from CVBG (in good case for CVBG...) They need to fly only 100-200 km to launch missiles, while CVBG fighters should take-off, gain alt, and fly 500km to interception point... Even IF Tu-22 are detected 1000km away - alert fighters STILL wouldnt have enouth time for interception.

If Tu-22 have cover - small or even mid-size CAP will be Su-33 job.

"swarm of Tu-95/Tu-22 bombers, possible covered by 25+ Su-33 ??? Common, to be effective 300km screen should have at least 20+ fighters, and even then it is barely enough against 20+ Su-33 - and at the same time they should somehow stop swarm of bombers TOO." - No problem mate. If you read my comment correctly there are (4) fighters in 2 CAP stations. Once the raid is detected, again once they go wheels-up, the alert fighters go airborne.

Not enough time. Do not think in terms of US AShM's missiles and stike aircrafts please. Russian aircrafts dont need to be close to CVBG to launch cruise missiles. Even alert aircrafts will not have enough time to intercept them.

The incoming raid will have a welcoming party all set to receive them. And now you are bringing large numbers of Su-33 into the fray?? The Admiral Kusnetsov embarks about 12 Su-33.

Due to largely training nature. Orginally A. Kusnetsov is meant to carry up to about 40 fighters. Either way, 24 Su-33 is definitely possible.

Where are you going to find enough room to hold 30+ Su-33?? How are you going to STOBAR them all in the air and refuel them to get the long range (500+ Km) you mention???Certainly you need to make a trade off between fuel and weapons?? Which will be sacrificed??

Nothing. AA missiles do not weight much. 20 min is more than enough to take-off for all Su-33. Remember, they dont need to hurry. They know time & place exactly.

"Common, to be effective 300km screen should have at least 20+ fighters" - This is covered by the "welcoming party" mentioned above which consists of CAP and alert fighters. And where did you get this 20+ fighters from??? And what do you mean by screen??

I REPEAT FOR n-th TIME! Only AIRBORNE defending fighters, ALREADY loitering 300km in the direction of INCOMING bombers attack at the time of such attack detection - have time to intercept this attack.

"And USSR forces practiced attacking US CVBG for years. And?" - Great!! You would think they have it right by now. By they way, how are they getting their targetting information??

Realt-time radar satellites like "Legenda", recon planes like Tu-95MR, over-horisont radars... You cant really hide CVBG from these...

The CVBG fighters may not get all the attacking bombers, but they can certainly reduce the number of Tu-22/95, force the remaining bombers to launch their ASM at maximum (less than ideal) ranges with little or unreliable target location data, or even force the remaining bombers to return to base.

If sufficient fighters meet bombers without opposing fighters cover... sure. But to trick is to meet these bombers. Preferable at least 600 km from CVBG - or it will be already too later...

Aircraft are just the outer layer for CVBG AAW defense. Aegis is the next.

Just what EW assets will reduce the effective detection range??

There are some of them. Su-25 special EW version, Tu-95 / Tu-142 EW versions, etc. With such EW, at very edge of E-2 range it would be hard to detect exact direction, number of aircrafts, they type, etc. CVBG commanders wouldnt know for several minutes if it is real attack or just imitation. Either way, i think it is resonable to assume - russian EW will affect detection range of E-2 at least slightly.

 

[Salty Dog]

I repeat, alert fighters will not have enouth time to reach 500km range. Simple as that. Particulary Tu-22 is able to supersonic aproach last 400-500km before launch, while even F-14 dont have enough fuel for such long supersonic aproach. F-18 is at the edge of its range even at subsonic speed. Remember, Tu-22 is detected 600-700km aways from CVBG (in good case for CVBG...) They need to fly only 100-200 km to launch missiles, while CVBG fighters should take-off, gain alt, and fly 500km to interception point... Even IF Tu-22 are detected 1000km away - alert fighters STILL wouldnt have enouth time for interception.

If Tu-22 have cover - small or even mid-size CAP will be Su-33 job.

Sorry mate, you still don't get it. CAP are already onstation. CVBG alert fighters launch once Tu-22/95 package goes wheels up, which means the Tu-22/95 are in the system well over 1000 Km out from the CVBG carrier. Plenty of time to gather a welcoming party. Do you really believe alert fighters will launch only when the Tu-22/95 strike are just 600-700 away??? You still don't understand a layered CVBG air defense. Once a CVBG knows it has incoming, it will reconfigure AAW defense accordingly.

 

[Salty Dog]

Not enough time. Do not think in terms of US AShM's missiles and stike aircrafts please. Russian aircrafts dont need to be close to CVBG to launch cruise missiles. Even alert aircrafts will not have enough time to intercept them.

Understood perfectly the AS launch to be 500+ Km. The CVBG would not want the Tu-22/95 strike to launch any closer than maximum range. In fact the welcoming party will force the attack back or have them launch at max range.