A hypothetical carrier buy for the RAN?

[spoz]

There is a pretty big 'tent' that the RN adds when helos are embarked. Fills the space between the forward crane and the superstructure. It could hold at least four MRH sized helos, maybe more. But for the RAN as a sealift ship as is seems almost perfect as her role would be to ferry stuff between logsitics port and the LHDs so whe doesn't need to be able to operate helos just land them, carry them and launch them once.

Agree that she would be about perfect as she is; but keeping access to the tent or some similar would increase her versatility. And, we already have a great name - as I said in another place - Jervis Bay III for sure. So, people in the right places in CDG, let's just do it!!

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Jervis Bay? Name the ship after one of many forgettable coastal features in a forgettable coast (NSW South Coast) that has been carried by two equally forgettable RAN ships? Now Tobruk is a name with meaning and purpose. Where Army and Navy did their best against the best and won.

 

[aussienscale]

Agree that she would be about perfect as she is; but keeping access to the tent or some similar would increase her versatility. And, we already have a great name - as I said in another place - Jervis Bay III for sure. So, people in the right places in CDG, let's just do it!!

ANYTHING but JB :shudder, may be too soon to re-use Tobruk, but what about something like Kakoda ? Although not technically Navy campaign, but potentially fitting ?

 

[SASWanabe]

I Vote Savo Island... seeing her main role would be to support HMAS Canberra

 

[spoz]

Jervis Bay? Name the ship after one of many forgettable coastal features in a forgettable coast (NSW South Coast) that has been carried by two equally forgettable RAN ships? Now Tobruk is a name with meaning and purpose. Where Army and Navy did their best against the best and won.

Thank god for that - I thought we were agreeing on too much!!

Savo Island as a support for Canberra? - very droll

As for Kakoda - no. Most of the best of the WW2 amphibious ops names were taken by the LCHs; but Milne Bay has never been used - a possibility?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Thank god for that - I thought we were agreeing on too much!!

Of course. I do get the Bay class “Jervis Bay” and surely the RN has more reason to name a HMS Jervis Bay rather than the RAN? Yes it is a big part of the RAN culture but its an Army ship too.

Savo Island as a support for Canberra? - very droll

I would have said rather inappropriate.

As for Kakoda - no. Most of the best of the WW2 amphibious ops names were taken by the LCHs; but Milne Bay has never been used - a possibility?

There aren’t many amphibious actions involving both the Australian Army and RAN that haven’t been used for ship names including. Sphakia (Crete) and Porton Plantation (Bougainville Campaign) come to mind but neither were assaults or major actions. Milne Bay was the defeat of a Japanese amphibious landing and the only significant RAN involvement was HMAS Arunta running away to Moresby before the Japs arrived. There were several more landings conducted by the RAN but with American troops including Aitape, Arawe, Hollandia and Morotai.

Perhaps a fitting name to honour the sealift role would be HMAS Vung Tau as it was the primary logistics base and port for the Australians in VietNam and also part of the HMAS Sydney (III) tradition.

 

[StoresBasher]

I agree AG about the Ark Royal, only as a stop gap measure if the LPAs can't last. Snatching one of Bays when available is another story... Helicopter hangars can be added later if necessary...

The LPA's will last and AR is just a pipe dream.
I asked my boss today onboard Manoora, an ex RN CPO of 20 years, who has served on AR.
He mentioned the amout of training for us to man it would be incredible, just for starters.

 

[Sea Toby]

Haven't WWII vets had their share of ship names already? I prefer a ship name from a much earlier conflict or operation. How about Dili or East Timor? Remind folks with far less age and memories why Australia requires such a vessel...

 

[jeffb]

Haven't WWII vets had their share of ship names already? I prefer a ship name from a much earlier conflict or operation. How about Dili or East Timor? Remind folks with far less age and memories why Australia requires such a vessel...

Thats the thing though, outside of further break up of Indonesia or more adventures in the Middle East, is there really a need for major sealift at this point? I can't see either of those two things happening. Its hard to make the case for urgent replacement of the LPAs, even in the worst case scenario where they can't sail.

 

[Todjaeger]

Thats the thing though, outside of further break up of Indonesia or more adventures in the Middle East, is there really a need for major sealift at this point? I can't see either of those two things happening. Its hard to make the case for urgent replacement of the LPAs, even in the worst case scenario where they can't sail.

A capable sealift ship is a very useful capability, not just for military 'adventures'. Particularly with respect the environmental changes in the region.

In the event of a natural disaster (flood, tropical cyclone, earthquake or eruption...) having a sealift ship which can be moved into a nearby position offshore would allow for lift (air and sea) medical and command/control coverage for disaster response. This can be invaluable when land-based infrastructure in the effected area would likely be either unavailable for insufficient for the amount of demand.

Now, if an intervention was required due to political, social or economic instabiliy within the ASEAN/S Pacific region, either like that in Timor Leste or RAMSI, again having some form of sealift to transport the personnel and provide a staging area and command platform to operate from is again invaluable.

-Cheers

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Thats the thing though, outside of further break up of Indonesia or more adventures in the Middle East, is there really a need for major sealift at this point? I can't see either of those two things happening. Its hard to make the case for urgent replacement of the LPAs, even in the worst case scenario where they can't sail.

There are many strong reasons (far more than mentioned above) for the ADF to be able to deploy and sustain an amphibious task group. But apart from the opinion of any casual observer it is the requirement given to the ADF by the Government to be ready with the amphibious task group. You may not agree with this but if so such an opinion is as relevant in this case as fronting a court of law and insisting that you don’t believe the state has a right to punish you for committing murder after you’ve done such a deed.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Thats the thing though, outside of further break up of Indonesia or more adventures in the Middle East, is there really a need for major sealift at this point? I can't see either of those two things happening. Its hard to make the case for urgent replacement of the LPAs, even in the worst case scenario where they can't sail.

Definitely. Maintenance of ADF amphibious capability. ADF command and control capabilities on deployed operations are a significant part of the LPA's role.

Deployment to incidents such as has happened in Fiji, Soloman Islands and East Timor in the last decade.

Australia is an island nation. For our defence forces to meet the requirements Government places upon them, they HAVE to be able to go elsewhere and an LPA is the best capability we have to do that at present. If they had to be removed from service due to some major fault within the vessels, we should be looking to rapidly acquire a vessel capable of taking up some part of their role or risk a large amount of irrelevance in the Asia Pacific region.

 

[Sea Toby]

Jeffb: While Australia is an island continent, there are also many islands off the mainland that need to be protected as well, such as Tasmania. What good is the Australian army's major forces on the mainland if Tasmania suffered the fate of invasion, well, faced an earthquake or another natural disaster? Is there a highway or railway bridge to Tasmania? A tunnel?

Keep in mind with East Timor the vast majority of supplies and vehicles arrived via the sea, not via the air... Australia is also responsible for the Heard Island, Cocos Islands, and Norfolk Island among others without commercial ferries Tasmania have for sealift...

Are you advocating a Brisbane Line again, that Tasmania should not be defended? I was under the impression a prime minster from Fremantle settled this during WWII...

Oh, its so easy for mainlanders to forgo the defenses of those not living on the mainland, never mind the islanders pay taxes too....

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Are you advocating a Brisbane Line again, that Tasmania should not be defended? I was under the impression a prime minster from Fremantle settled this during WWII...

Are you being serious? The ADF has no plans to defend Australia lest of all Tasmania from invasion because there is no threat. And even when we were planning to defend the country from invasion in recent years thanks to BS fantasy strategy something like an LHD is the best way to get forces to the isolated north west of Australia. It may look like solid ground on a political scale map but the are no lines of communications ‘cept the seaways.

Anyway the LHDs are for force projection into the rest of the world. For which there are a huge number of potential missions very close at home. This is obvious to anyone with more than a passing assessment of the south Pacific, south east Asia and other nearby trouble spots (sout west Asia, north east Asia).

 

[Sea Toby]

Are you being serious? The ADF has no plans to defend Australia lest of all Tasmania from invasion because there is no threat. And even when we were planning to defend the country from invasion in recent years thanks to BS fantasy strategy something like an LHD is the best way to get forces to the isolated north west of Australia. It may look like solid ground on a political scale map but the are no lines of communications ‘cept the seaways.

Anyway the LHDs are for force projection into the rest of the world. For which there are a huge number of potential missions very close at home. This is obvious to anyone with more than a passing assessment of the south Pacific, south east Asia and other nearby trouble spots (sout west Asia, north east Asia).

Don't pretend the Brisbane Line didn't exist. Google it, there are many, many links...

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Don't pretend the Brisbane Line didn't exist. Google it, there are many, many links...

LOL. The Brisbane line was 1942. Not only did it exist it was a good strategy. Would have won us the campaign if the Japanese had decided to invade. But this has got nothing to do with the here and now and what I posted.

So I guess you are serious about the need for LHDs to defend Tasmania and Heard Island (etc)? Well that may be crazy but its less crazy than the “no need” for amphibious forces opinion expressed up above.

 

[riksavage]

LOL. The Brisbane line was 1942. Not only did it exist it was a good strategy. Would have won us the campaign if the Japanese had decided to invade. But this has got nothing to do with the here and now and what I posted.

So I guess you are serious about the need for LHDs to defend Tasmania and Heard Island (etc)? Well that may be crazy but its less crazy than the “no need” for amphibious forces opinion expressed up above.

I don't know why the RAN doesn't do what the RN does, pick a letter of the Alphabet and name the ships accordingly, the letter 'C' being easy for the new AEW's: Cutlass, Courage, Corsair. Or pick a subject. Greek mythology for example: Achilles, Ajax, Zeus, Agamemnon, Poseidon etc.

Stuck this comment in wrong thread!!!

 

[icelord]

The brisbane line worked during the battle of Brissie, Damn Yanks invading our city and stealing our women!

Id rather we didnt use the Name Jervis Bay, anyone in the eastern fleet(especially hunters) will tell you there loathe for the place, its a mandatory port for all ships no matter what, odd sailing to brissie from Sydney Via JB...it happens.

Id rather stick to a 'bay' name with a UK 'bay' class, would make sense. Theres always Harvey bay.

Umm, my question in regard to attacking Tasmania...when have we been at war with the penquins cause all that would invade via the south...

 

[Volkodav]

The only rationale for this idea would be that the LPAs just can’t sail. Obviously most of us are not privy to a detailed knowledge of the LPA’s mechanical standard. Reports to date range from ‘will break in half in a swell’ to ‘just a few pipes need replacing’. The real standard is no doubt somewhere in between and the reports from crew on this thread sway in the direction of four more years of sailing. Otherwise the cost, training demand, etc of a gap fill replacement just isn’t worth it. Training on big flight decks is not such a critical issue it can’t be done as part of the LHD introduction into service. If we were planning on a CTOL carrier instead of an LHD this might be a very different case but of course we aren’t.



Any significant structural, systems change should be avoided in any short term gap fill lease – no matter what the ship is. Sure you need to change radios and the like so you can talk to other people and perhaps deactivate or remove weapon systems you don’t have an ammunition supply for. Anyway when it comes to CIWS this is a moot point. Ark Royal is fitted with Phalanx her Goalkeepers were replaced some time ago. Also if the RN was to sell/lease Ark Royal onto another party it would most likely keep her Phalanx for reuse as they are quite easy (by naval standards) to remove and reinstall on another ship.

Yes agreed thats why I used the word interim. It goes without saying that acquiring Ark would only be an option if the LPAs were unable to return to sea. It will come down to risk assessments by people more qualified than you or I. That said a Naval Arch I work with, who has intimate knowledge of the LPAs, expressed the opinion before the latest issues that he was surprised they have lasted as long as they have.

Fair call on the Phalanx, I had assumed she had Goal Keeper and stand corrected.

 

[Volkodav]

The brisbane line worked during the battle of Brissie, Damn Yanks invading our city and stealing our women!

Id rather we didnt use the Name Jervis Bay, anyone in the eastern fleet(especially hunters) will tell you there loathe for the place, its a mandatory port for all ships no matter what, odd sailing to brissie from Sydney Via JB...it happens.

Id rather stick to a 'bay' name with a UK 'bay' class, would make sense. Theres always Harvey bay.

Umm, my question in regard to attacking Tasmania...when have we been at war with the penquins cause all that would invade via the south...

Just an idea, how about Gallipoli. It was an amphibious landing that involved both the RAN and the Army as well as being the start of the ANZAC legend.