Kiwi Reactions

[Jason_kiwi]

If NZ got attacked after 2010 what would the reactions be?

Say they detected a fleet of 4 frigates coming in. They would probably send out the two anzacs. Orions would be sent out for support(by then they may have antiship capibilities. The OPV's will be sent out for light fire and with the karmens medium capibility. If the enermy pushes to the coast. The NZ MRV will be sent to Waioru to pick up soliders and fighting vehicles,etc. The MRV will land the gear near the enemy. A fight will be drawn. Mistrils will be in place for incoming air attacks and Javilins will be taking out enermy vehicles. As the fight goes on the OPV's will arrive and will give the troops support. The Orions and karmens will be launching missiles and the ANZAC's will be on standby.

Mayby NZ will be able to hold off an attack.

During exercise joint Kiwi. 2 NZ frigates took out 4 Oz frigates, even although the Oz ones were better armed. It is all about skill, which is what the NZDF has. A missile is launched and the kiwis quickly react by taking it down with the phalanx.

By 2010 the LAVs,LOVs,Javilin,OPV,MRV,IPV,orion upgrades,NH90 helis, direct fire support weapons and missile and torp upgrades will be introduced. Making the kiwi defence better than ever. NZ will be able to hold off an attack.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

If NZ got attacked after 2010 what would the reactions be?

Say they detected a fleet of 4 frigates coming in. They would probably send out the two anzacs. Orions would be sent out for support(by then they may have antiship capibilities. The OPV's will be sent out for light fire and with the karmens medium capibility. If the enermy pushes to the coast. The NZ MRV will be sent to Waioru to pick up soliders and fighting vehicles,etc. The MRV will land the gear near the enemy. A fight will be drawn. Mistrils will be in place for incoming air attacks and Javilins will be taking out enermy vehicles. As the fight goes on the OPV's will arrive and will give the troops support. The Orions and karmens will be launching missiles and the ANZAC's will be on standby.

Mayby NZ will be able to hold off an attack.

During exercise joint Kiwi. 2 NZ frigates took out 4 Oz frigates, even although the Oz ones were better armed. It is all about skill, which is what the NZDF has. A missile is launched and the kiwis quickly react by taking it down with the phalanx.

By 2010 the LAVs,LOVs,Javilin,OPV,MRV,IPV,orion upgrades,NH90 helis, direct fire support weapons and missile and torp upgrades will be introduced. Making the kiwi defence better than ever. NZ will be able to hold off an attack.

Some flies in the ointment Jason hehe. One of the Anzacs would probably be on an overseas deployment, the other undergoing it's refit. One of the Orions will take off, only to turn back with engine trouble, the government will meantime be passing the blame around for putting off the harpoon upgrade and letting the fighters go. The OPV will keep well clear, with a piddly 25mm they are next to useless in such a fight, but the Kamens and Orions go in with Mavericks, most get taken out before getting in range by long range SAMs. However some Mavs are launched and a Frigate is badly damaged before the Kamens are out of the fight, destroyed. The Orions, big targets but with self defensive decoys deployed come off a little better, of the 5 launched, only 3 are shot down, 2 return to base. The Frigates get to shore, the MRV is sent to Waioru but is unable to upload as it can't travel overland, Waioru is in the middle of the country, and anyway as Waioru is a training base, most of the North Island ground units are at Linton. Those units are duely loaded and the MRV sets off, it is sighted by one of the frigates helos, and a cruise missile is launched, sending her to the bottom. The enemy, having only Frigates, do not carry any ground vehicles, but demolition sappers are sent off to wreck havoc. All the Mistrals and Javelins were lost on the MRV. The railway and the highway north are destroyed before the LAVs and artillary get past the Bombays. It is winter and the ground is too boggy for the LAV's to go off road. Just when all is thought to be lost, the private volunteer Confederate Air Force arrives on the scene with their Mig 21, Catalina, and sundry other ex WW2 aircraft, loaded with munitions scrounged from various museums and while the Frigate crews are falling over laughing, proceed to take each out with a well placed WW2 heavy weight torpedo, the Mig meanwhile shoots the helo's down, the sappers are captured by several irate farmers with shotguns, pitchforks and pig dogs, and the Government fall over each other in their race to take the credit for the defeat of the enemy, lol.

 

[driftder]

Bravo! Splendid! Good scenario ending. You forgot to put in a role for the FPDA and NZ's other allies e.g. Singapore, Britain. And what about the SAS, air force with the Skyhawks? :

 

[Jason_kiwi]

ok,the equipment from Waioru are ready at the shore line and are loaded on by landinmg craft. An enemy heli does not take the ship out because the ship reaches the landing zone. The enemy heli is takin out earlier by a seasparrow. Missiles that get fired at the ANZACs are repelled by the skill of the PHALANX.The Mavricks take out 1 frig. Our frigs take out atleast 2(as show in exercise kiwi, 2 anzacs took out 4 Oz anzacs) sso 1 frigate remains. It goes as an all out battle, and NZ wins.

By 2010 the orions will be upgraded and hopefully the ANZAC's, so by then we will have a better capibility.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

Bravo! Splendid! Good scenario ending. You forgot to put in a role for the FPDA and NZ's other allies e.g. Singapore, Britain. And what about the SAS, air force with the Skyhawks? :

The NZDF was designed to hold off an attack untill help comes, which is what it is capible of.

 

[nz enthusiast]

and you forgot the guy who can make cruise missiles in his garage. We will send the surf lifesavers in there inflatables to also, Australia shows up because they are bored of looking at Indonesia all day, when they turn up you might as well consider the enemy frigates gone....

 

[gf0012-aust]

The NZDF was designed to hold off an attack untill help comes, which is what it is capible of.

at an air level alone - Not with 3 airworthy scooters - and definitely not with maverick armed orions.

remember the orions need CAP - they're unable to defend themselves. they're not railed for air defence/self protection

as for 2 x NZ ANZACs knocking off 4 x Oz ANZACs - AFAIK we've never had 4 ANZACs all at one exercise. - apart from that, exercises aren't scripted like that. A local reference would be nice, I don't have any records indicating any of what you've said re NavEx's.

NavEx's are like DACT, they're designed around training scenarios - not around establishing a winner and a loser.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Who do the frigates belong to, what is the purpose of their attack on NZ, I can't see the point unless they were intending to mine the approaches to Auckland to keep our forces bottled up, I really can't think of anything else. To spy, come in as a tourist. To sink our naval forces to prevent them joining in a larger battle somewhere, perhaps an allie has been attacked, maybe, though sending 4 frigates here would indicate it is a fairly major power, in which case, what we can add to a jpoint task force would be inconsequential.

 

[Stryker001]

Australia would not allow a hypothetical attack of that nature to occur to our allie NZ. One because it's in our region, second due to the ANZAC history we share with our NZ brothers.

If a Hypothetical attack of that nature occurred it would mean that Australia would already be engaged in operations, be it offensive or in a defence fashion, in which case I would assume NZ would already be involved.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Jason, the first time a single ASM was fired at a New Zealand frigate, from a foreign vessel a tactical withdrawal (the polite way of saying running away) would immediately occur. This is no reflection on the courage or ability of RNZN sailors and RNZAF airmen. The RNZAF and RNZN ANZAC frigate are simply not equipped to tackle ASM equipped ships.

Te Kaha and Te Kana possess minimal ASM defences (the Phalanx is a LAST ditch weapon, not an immediate response). The Sea sparrow SAM system is designed to shoot down aircraft, not ASM's.

I'd also imagine your Naval exercise you refer to was operating with either "notional equipment levels" or ignoring particular capabilities of the RAN frigates. For instance how could a RNZN ANZAC frigate "deal" with repeated Harpoon II missile shots, bearing in mind that the Harpoon missile has a 130k range, let alone a helo armed missile capability? Do you think a Navy would fire a single missile and see what happens? Particularly one that outnumbered it's opponent 2 to 1...

 

[Jason_kiwi]

If you had a look at the start of the thread, I said 2010. Which means by then the RNZN ANZAC's probably will have harpoon missiles. And what would an Oz frigate go if a french frigate fired a missile at it, it would get out of their too.(the reson I said france is because it is a country alot bigger than Oz.

 

[gf0012-aust]

If you had a look at the start of the thread, I said 2010. Which means by then the RNZN ANZAC's probably will have harpoon missiles. And what would an Oz frigate go if a french frigate fired a missile at it, it would get out of their too.(the reson I said france is because it is a country alot bigger than Oz.

Interestingly enough a few of us have wargamed a theoretical against a French Strike Force (incl N Carrier) launching a raid from New Caledonia ( the only close logistical point)

In every scenario the French got a hiding.

There are only two countries capable of mounting an expeditionary event against Oz - and it's not the French in that group. Even the US acknowledges that war against Oz is very unattractive for a variety of reasons.

Jason you really need to study warfighting and comprehend logistics rather than get excited about single platform capability.

The bottom line is that NZ is unable to defend her shores with her current fleet - even in 5 years time. The chances of NZ getting Harp2 are almost negligible unless there is a dramatic change to her threat matrix.

Mil spending is still dirty word in NZ.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

What do u mean 2 countries? Germany,france,tones, even NZ could send a few frigs upto the coast and take out a few 100 000 people.

 

[gf0012-aust]

What do u mean 2 countries? Germany,france,tones, even NZ could send a few frigs upto the coast and take out a few 100 000 people.

I assume that you're joking. Are you seriously trying to state on a public forum that Germany, France and/or NZ are capable of mounting expeditionary warfare on an island continent?

NZ doesn't even have the basics for low level insertion expeditionary events.

Try and study force protection and logistics before commenting.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

I said nz could go in a kill a pile of people before getting pushed back out.

Any big country like germany,france,uk,us,china and countried that hav a big naval force and large airforce could easily take over

 

[gf0012-aust]

Any big country like germany,france,uk,us,china and countried that hav a big naval force and large airforce could easily take over

Once again, try and study force protection and logistics before commenting.

Go away for a week and try and learn something about expeditonary warfare (even the Falklands will be a useful example) and then come back to continue the discussion.

If you aren't going to make the effort to understand how complex this subject is, then you aren't going to get very far.

There are 5 x essential "P's" in warfighting at an intercontinental expeditionary level - France, Germany and definitely NZ don't have them in place.

When you demonstrate to me that you can grasp even the basics of what is required (and it's not warload) then we might begin to make some progress.

 

[nz enthusiast]

New Zealand lacks the ability to supply its frigates with ammunitions at sea, so we would blast off our guns and then we would become cannon fudder. France, Germany etc aren't actually that amazing if you look through the size of their navy, and compare into the number of ships countries like Germany and the US had in WW2 they know were near anygood.

There is actually no first world country in the world now that could actually take over another first world country without taking an obsolute knocking in the process. Know one really stands out from the crowd, most countries have some capability to protect themselves, and have a whole heap of friends and allies. No one will try anything in the fear of being gang bashed.

The ANZAC frigates aren't in any state for real combat, they carry all that they need to do patroling, and sometimes not even that. The NZ government even knows the frigates aren't ready and say they won't send them in unless they get the upgrading comparable to what Australia is giving theres. Even the Canterbury (no being retired) could have given the nz anzac frigates some trouble. The anzac is just not fit for real warfare.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Jason, it seems you are unable or unwilling to listen or learn from those who actually have spent their lives working in defence, you are throwing various threads and scenerios around looking for someone to agree with you and say that NZ's defence forces are kick arse, they are not. It is pointless saying that this and that MAY BE done in 5 years, when we could have several changes of government in that time, ignoring the changes in the world climate over the next 5 years. Look at the 2 additional Anzac options and the F-16's, both were agreed to and funded, but were are they.
You are too young to be an expert in defence, you really do not know everything when it comes to defence, NZ's or anyones elses. You are keen and enthusiatic, good, stop this NZ defence is great BS and use this forum to learn and ask questions on points you don't understand, but listen and learn. If you want to join our navy and one day command one of our ships, then you are going to need to be able to study, learn, accept weaknesses, strategise, look for your strenghts and the oppositions weaknesses etc. If you go in with this current altitude you are going to get yourself and the men under you killed.
In video games, the weak are always winning over incredible odds, same as in the movies, but that isn't real, in real life the strong generally win over the weak. That is reality.
War and the preparation for it is not a simple exercise of platforms and weapons, as Gary oftens points out, it has everything to do with behind the scenes planning and supply. Japan and Germany lost WW2 because both thought that "mine is better than yours" and both were proved wrong. A plane is no good with no av gas, a ship useless when the weapons are expended. If a warship is attacked these days, it will not be 1 subsonic missile, it will be many, from different directions, and they could be supersonic and manuvering. A phalanx is almost at the point where it is becoming ineffective in preventing a warhead getting through, and it only takes 1. Hence the move to RAM and directed energy weapons. Sea sparrows are designed to take down aircraft, not missiles, so if a couple of missiles are launched at an Anzac, it is probably going to be hit. If launched at the MRV, OPV, Endeavour or any other of our ships, they are dead. If someone has told you that a MSI Bushmaster can shot down a missile, they are wrong, if the radar directed computer controlled close coupled phalanx is stretched, well you see the point.
We are sending troops overseas and expecting our allies to protect them. A lot of our shipping has to traverse the waters north west of Australia where pirates abound, and where future tensions over resources could boil over into regional conflict, should we expect our allies to escort our shipping. If Australia is invaded by a country low on resources and crowded and seeing Oz as a way to relieve it's population pressure and lack of resources, Australia is going to need help from it's friends, the US will almost certainly help her, can we, do we have the capability or are we only takers. When the debate was on over the LAV's, one comment was that a C-130 with a LAV couldn't carry enough fuel to make Australia. We couldn't send fighters to help defend her airspace, our Orions can't help to defend her and our shipping from submarines or ships, the Anzacs would have to keep their distance due to their inability to defend against more than 1 subsonic missile attack at a time.
Our forces are inadequent even for the peacekeeping role assigned to them, the defence budget is inadequent to provide a decent force structure. Remember, whenever we say that an allie can carry part of our load, we are really saying that we are expecting their taxpayers to do so, when they have the same pressures for improved health and education and social services as we have, why should they go without to help us when we are not much of an effort ourselves.
Me thinks I have just unloaded a lot of my own fustrations in this diatribe lol. I hope I haven't offended too many with my rant

 

[driftder]

A very good point by point observation. Especially the part about future tensions over resources boiling over into regional conflict. A few countries in ASEAN that might be embroiled in such future conflicts are renewing their budget for arms purchases, including mine.

Still I would like to remind that we would come if you called, those under the FPDA agreement. A personal observation - I have worked with Anzacs before when they are based with us. They are tops and I include not just their SF but the plain infantry and staff too. They have a high spirit of innovation and cockiness that rubs off and impress, regardless of their TOE.

A proper solution, if I dare say so, is for the NZ govt to acknowledge that the world is a not so nice place nowaday as before and that security and military spending is a must, no matter how reprehensible it might be. A steadfast budget allocation for defense over the next few years, regardless of the political party in power, will be the right fix but it won't be immediate. It will be over a period of time - 10 years perhaps? Just my 2 cents, and please correct any errors on my part.

 

[Aussie Digger]

The RAN would deal with a French Frigate, the same way as anyone else (similiarly equipped) would. ANZAC frigates don't generally work on their own (except NZ as it doesn't have any other options). Both RAN ANZAC and FFG frigates are being equipped with Harp2.

HMAS Warramunga (ANZAC Class) already has them and the rest of class is to be equipped by 2006. No French ASM (to the best of my knowledge) possesses the range that Harp2 does, with the exception of the Block 3 version of the MM-40 Exocet. This missile however is not yet in service.

In addition, the French 100mm guns they use on their frigates are markedly inferior to the 127mm Mk 45 Mod 2 guns on ANZAC class frigates in terms of range and effects and only marginally superior to the 76mm gun fitted to the FFG's.

The RAN's ANZAC class frigates will be fitted with the new ESSM, (3 of the class of 8 are already fitted with ESSM) which is specifically designed to destroy new generation anti-ship missiles, including supersonic missiles. The ANZAC's will also be fitted with additional fire control capabilities incorporating a second channel of fire (ie: an ability to engage 2 threats simultaneously) and 2 new close in weapon systems by 2010.

The RAN's FFG's are being upgraded and fitted with SM-2 Block IIIA long range surface to air missiles and ESSM. Their radar systems are also being upgraded and whilst not quite achieving AEGIS type capabilities, they aren't far off and are becoming the most capable FFG class frigate in the world. The upgrades should be completed easily by 2010.

Try some conducting some research into these capabilities and you'll see just what people are talking about here. These sorts of capabilities make the RAN ships compare very favourably to any similar class of ships in ANY Navy. Without trying to be insulting, the RNZN would probably drool over a possibility of acquiring a similar capability. The French might too...