.50 vs 20mm

lobbie111

New Member
This has come up before, well I know I actively posted in it. But I'm looking at designing an active protection system for any armored vehicle and I was going to use a cannon for the interception of the missile, now its slaved to a radar and I wanted it to be used as a secondary weapon for the tank. In that, if its not being used by the system is then slaves to the commanders sight, now I was wondering what would be the ideal caliber to use for the system. I have my eye on a 20mm but I'm open to ideas.


by the way, this is more for MBT's and STRYKER's a lighter version with say a 7.62 will be used for 4x4's

Thanking you in advance Lobbie...
 

Chrom

New Member
This has come up before, well I know I actively posted in it. But I'm looking at designing an active protection system for any armored vehicle and I was going to use a cannon for the interception of the missile, now its slaved to a radar and I wanted it to be used as a secondary weapon for the tank. In that, if its not being used by the system is then slaves to the commanders sight, now I was wondering what would be the ideal caliber to use for the system. I have my eye on a 20mm but I'm open to ideas.


by the way, this is more for MBT's and STRYKER's a lighter version with say a 7.62 will be used for 4x4's

Thanking you in advance Lobbie...
7.62 or 5.56 will be much better choice than 12.7 as you will need direct hit anyway, and higher ROF and lower weight are huge advantage here. 20mm is also ok - but only with precise dalayed fusing. Such fusing will surery make whole system more expencive, but on the other hand will allow less precise aiming. So it is a good trade-off. Allthought in that case i would propose 30 or even 40mm shells - they have an order of magnitude stronger explosive effect.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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This has come up before, well I know I actively posted in it. But I'm looking at designing an active protection system for any armored vehicle and I was going to use a cannon for the interception of the missile, now its slaved to a radar and I wanted it to be used as a secondary weapon for the tank. In that, if its not being used by the system is then slaves to the commanders sight, now I was wondering what would be the ideal caliber to use for the system. I have my eye on a 20mm but I'm open to ideas.

Are you doing this as private interest/hobby or do you work for a miltech vendor? The reason I ask is that one of the Def-Professionals on here is involved with armour protection development. If a company then flick me more details.
 

McTaff

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7.62 or 5.56 will be much better choice than 12.7 as you will need direct hit anyway, and higher ROF and lower weight are huge advantage here. 20mm is also ok - but only with precise dalayed fusing. Such fusing will surery make whole system more expencive, but on the other hand will allow less precise aiming. So it is a good trade-off. Allthought in that case i would propose 30 or even 40mm shells - they have an order of magnitude stronger explosive effect.
This is pretty much on point. There are two ways to go about intercepting incoming missiles, and they are both covered here.

I'm going to expand a little and use the laymans explanation, so that other people who read this thread can pick it up, and also because I have little direct contact with these systems.

You can opt for the "wall of lead" approach, with smallish calibre and high rate of fire. The advantages are:
-It is cheaper than a fancy prox fuse system
-Easier to manufacture
-Can carry quite a number of projectiles
-High rate of fire
-The system itself is smaller, and has considerable weight savings and can slew quicker for a given size. (Weight savings possibly offset by large magazine)
-Supply lines would use existing boxed ammo, not requiring special resupply considerations to be made

The general idea being to throw so much at the incoming projectile that it simply has to run into something or other before it gets to you. Interception with a kinetic kill, requiring a direct hit, but upping your chances with a high number of attempts.
The other option is to go with a "smart" system and use large calibre, like your 20mm, then you have the advantages of:
-More flexibility as you can engage harder targets while slaved
-Better chance to hit with a given projectile
-Needs less ammo to intercept missiles, leaving more for engaging other targets.

Attempting to intercept the precise way requires some fancy calculations. Nothing a decent computer can't handle - you already have some pretty decent fire-control radar systems for the system already - but still means spending more money per unit.

Looking at the two lists, it's easier to pick the first way out, as any given defence force usually want the cheaper, smaller system that doesn't require anything special. Your advantages don't necessarily outweigh the 'smarter' system, but it's easier to manufacture, cheaper, smaller and uses the same ammunition as something or other out there.

I'd opt for the smaller projectile with the flattest trajectory, and then work up from there with testing. Flattest trajectory for each will depend on a few different things such as barrel length, twist, etc. The objective is to find a round that will positively go straight and direct and have minimal drop or drift, that way you don't have to track and adjust for wind and range constantly.

5.56mm FMJ rounds might not have quite enough mass to destroy the incoming weapon (although I am reasonably sure it would), and .50 calibre might be just that little too bulky to carry. It all depends on the system you come up with, and the proof is definitely in the testing.

Next you have to think about a couple of things:

1) Will your radar see only direct LOS weapons or will it be able to detect top-down missiles? Top down will defend against Javelin, and air-launched missiles, so you'll have to build a radar capable of looking up, and far. That'll make it pretty big.

2) Given the system is going to be active, how are you preventing EW from detecting and tracking you? Jamming? Radiation-seeking missiles? These are all things that need to be addressed, although not insurmountable.

3) How much lead do you want to throw? Are you using an automatic machine gun system? Chain or Gatling gun? Multiple gun system, with two or four linked together? Multiple-shot "Metal Storm" system?

I'd have to say, selling the concept is pretty much like selling the CIWS/Phalanx system for vehicles, and probably isn't new. I'd say there'd be patents existing that would cover the use of a system such as this for vehicles, so that's a hurdle there.

The concept sounds great, and I'm not trying to rain on your parade, even though I sound cynical. I'd think it's a decent idea, although I am not sure you'll be able to make it small enough to fit onto a tank or APC and not have it take up too much space that it would be deemed too big by the people you are trying to sell it to.

Your key points to try to sell the idea is: Low cost, compatibility of ammo, ease of maintenance and small size.
 

lobbie111

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Are you doing this as private interest/hobby or do you work for a miltech vendor? The reason I ask is that one of the Def-Professionals on here is involved with armour protection development. If a company then flick me more details.
No I am not a miltech vendor but I do intend to market the idea, I have not worked out the complete system as yet but this is the basic idea, I have expirience in industrial design, so I know how its going to fit together and how everything works, I will try to get some renderings of it out if I can.

- AESA tracking radar
- PESA targeting and verification radar, which is slaved to cannon/gun
- Shares commonality with CROWS mount
- Able to be lowered and raised, offers variable levels of protection based on commanders assessment of threat level.
- Smoke and Air-burst Grenades
- Able to be slaved to commanders sight (secondary weapon)

And this is how it works:

The AESA radar covers every angle around the vehicle to a distance of around 55m it sends out a short range radar signal that in addition to detecting a projectile attempts to jam any radar signals that the enemy may have operating to find the tank, to solve the problem of the cannon firing at random targets the radar sweeps again and verifies the time the object took to travel to 50m out from the tank, if it is not going fast enough the threat is ignored.

The next step is the PESA radar which tracks verifies it is not a friendly projectile (if friendly it will obviously ignore the warning) BUT if the trajectory is calculated by the processor to be coming at the vehicle, it will engage and destroy the target which will be destroyed by the cannon/gun system.

THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO REPLACE CURRENT ARMOUR BECAUSE THE DISTANCES I AM TALKING ABOUT HERE IS VERY SMALL IN TERMS OF PROJECTILE SPEED AND THE DISTANCE FROM INTERCEPTION TO DESTRUCTION
 

lobbie111

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1) Will your radar see only direct LOS weapons or will it be able to detect top-down missiles? Top down will defend against Javelin, and air-launched missiles, so you'll have to build a radar capable of looking up, and far. That'll make it pretty big.

2) Given the system is going to be active, how are you preventing EW from detecting and tracking you? Jamming? Radiation-seeking missiles? These are all things that need to be addressed, although not insurmountable.

3) How much lead do you want to throw? Are you using an automatic machine gun system? Chain or Gatling gun? Multiple gun system, with two or four linked together? Multiple-shot "Metal Storm" system?
1) The system uses the AESA radar which is basically a big thing of sensors covering every angle

2) See above post well the basic idea is the whole system is a jamming pod that jams enemy radiation (it might sound confusing because I'm emmiting radiation)

3) I was thinking about either the rheinmetal Mk20 RH202 20mm but I think from what Ive been told I'll use a 7.62mm-12.7mm gatling stlye but the drawback is the slow warmup time so the best Idea would be to use a modified M2 .50 or M240...

Multiple gun systems would be good, but who's got time to clean and maintain all those guns when your talking about a secondary armament here...
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
Sounds like a pretty good idea, but I don't want to be a soldier who has to stand near a vehicle equipped with such a "CIWS".
Don't forget that a combat vehicle does not work on its own on a battlefield.
 

lobbie111

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Sounds like a pretty good idea, but I don't want to be a soldier who has to stand near a vehicle equipped with such a "CIWS".
Don't forget that a combat vehicle does not work on its own on a battlefield.
This is just the prototype, I had considered that already and I was thinking if extending the radars range to 100 m giving the effective engagement range of around 60-70m, but that I think would require some type of 40mm shotgun system which I havn't ruled out.

Well I got the idea from when I had a go at clay pigeons, a shotgun type system would be best except with maybe 40mm solid slugs or something smaller like 7.62FMJ
 
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McTaff

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Unfortunately, you are going to seriously rethink the strategy of what you are trying to achieve.

Most hand-held anti-tank missiles travel at approximately 200 to 280 m/s. This gives you (at a radar range of 100m) approximately half a second to detect, compute initial solution, fire, adjust and fire for effect. (continuous firing or no, the re-adjustment still takes time).

If your unit is pointed the wrong way, your system would have to have extremely large and powerful motors to slew so fast and precisely.

Even at a range of 500m, your system has only two seconds to respond.

Ideally, you should have a radar which can see up to 4km, which is the outer limits of most crew-served and hand held launchers. This creates issues with EM emissions with respect to OH&S, but that's an entirely different matter.

The 'shotgun' style of defence would work, but you'd forget slaving it in the first place as that type of system would carry an extremely limited number of rounds (due to size) and would be ineffective against anything other than soft targets.

Adding an EW system is a moot point against most systems that use laser designation, TV or IR tracking.
 

lobbie111

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Most hand-held anti-tank missiles travel at approximately 200 to 280 m/s. This gives you (at a radar range of 100m) approximately half a second to detect, compute initial solution, fire, adjust and fire for effect. (continuous firing or no, the re-adjustment still takes time).
One of the Russians ADS detects and destroys targets in about 2 microseconds my system will probably have the same processing power but it will take a tad longer for the gun to swing around (it uses computer controlled compressed air actuators VERY FAST).

I see what you are saying in terms of detection capability but the thing is if its going to have a range of that much its going to be a large and costly system, you may as well have a separate vehicle.

Oh I forgot to mention the Pesa radar acts similar to a laser continually focusing on the target giving the gun a line to fire on, similar to the phalnax how the more it shoots the more accurate it gets. The gun just shoots on that line until the target is destroyed.

(hope you understood that last paragraph)
 

Chrom

New Member
Adding an EW system is a moot point against most systems that use laser designation, TV or IR tracking.
EW system work quite well against laser and IR tracking. EW systems dont work against laser beam riding missiles like russian ATGM's, but work well against laser beam homing systems like Hellfire, LAHAT or other laser homing missiles. Addidionally, special coats and covers also could greatly reduce laser homing and IR tracking effectivity.
 

lobbie111

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EW system work quite well against laser and IR tracking. EW systems dont work against laser beam riding missiles like russian ATGM's, but work well against laser beam homing systems like Hellfire, LAHAT or other laser homing missiles. Addidionally, special coats and covers also could greatly reduce laser homing and IR tracking effectivity.
You could in theory with a system like this when the beam is broken by an infrared or laser signal also get it to fire on that trajectory automatically. But this is nothing new I think (but am not sure) the British use a system where when as laser beam hits the tank the tanks main Ordnance fire on the target.
 

Chrom

New Member
You could in theory with a system like this when the beam is broken by an infrared or laser signal also get it to fire on that trajectory automatically. But this is nothing new I think (but am not sure) the British use a system where when as laser beam hits the tank the tanks main Ordnance fire on the target.
Russian Shtora work that way, and it is pretty old system. Most tanks EWR behave similar.
 

lobbie111

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It's a pretty simple and effective system but there is room for improvment. So can anyone reccomend a calibre, I've got my sights on a 40mm Shotgun or a 7.62mm Machine Gun
 

Awang se

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I always wonder how effective is the APS against a Rocket?ATGM attack from very close range (less then 100 metres). will the system have enough time to react?

1) The system uses the AESA radar which is basically a big thing of sensors covering every angle

2) See above post well the basic idea is the whole system is a jamming pod that jams enemy radiation (it might sound confusing because I'm emmiting radiation)

3) I was thinking about either the rheinmetal Mk20 RH202 20mm but I think from what Ive been told I'll use a 7.62mm-12.7mm gatling stlye but the drawback is the slow warmup time so the best Idea would be to use a modified M2 .50 or M240...

Multiple gun systems would be good, but who's got time to clean and maintain all those guns when your talking about a secondary armament here...
- If you're using AESA, then the fast scan rate will make the enemy ESM effort rather difficult. beside, the AESA can also serve as a jammer/target tracking at the same time. so you have extra bonus there. with Radar targeting, smoke screen and foggy condition will be useless to protect the target. but i wonder if there's any AESA system small enough to fit inside tank.

- MG/Cannon system is no good. the basic tactic to engage a Tank with RPG is to engage the tank with several RPGs from sveral different direction around the tank. you need a system that can tackle the incomings from all points of compass at almost the same time.
 
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Wooki

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I always wonder how effective is the APS against a Rocket?ATGM attack from very close range (less then 100 metres). will the system have enough time to react?



- If you're using AESA, then the fast scan rate will make the enemy ESM effort rather difficult. beside, the AESA can also serve as a jammer/target tracking at the same time. so you have extra bonus there. with Radar targeting, smoke screen and foggy condition will be useless to protect the target. but i wonder if there's any AESA system small enough to fit inside tank.

- MG/Cannon system is no good. the basic tactic to engage a Tank with RPG is to engage the tank with several RPGs from sveral different direction around the tank. you need a system that can tackle the incomings from all points of compass at almost the same time.
Well, there in lies the rub, eh? And highlights a key weakness of any APS. You need a computer to run it. Reaction times are not a problem, especially if you converted, I dunno, a swimmer detection port survelliance radar.

But it is what slows the reaction time of the system down from a sedately and unstressed 50 micro seconds to detect and respond to threat to 80 microseconds, to 100 and then to failure all together.

The real enemy for an APS is heat. For example (not that you would run an APS off this, but a Pentium 3M loses its RAM at 63 degrees Celsius). That means for a system relying on the older chipsets out there and running a new fancy "spray cool" cabinet or the like, you can only get away with about 50 degrees C ambient outside the vehicle before things start to get a bit dicky.

To counter this you add cooling systems and more robust chipsets and there in lies the other weakness of APS'.... cost.

So the bottle neck or choke point on all APS systems is the actual computing system and its ability to handle heat without taking up the entire volume of the vehicle.

cheers

w
 

lobbie111

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To counter this you add cooling systems and more robust chipsets and there in lies the other weakness of APS'.... cost.
Well, like my friends computer processor sounds like, you could always put a cold air jet turbine on there...

To counter multiple threats it has a multiple shot reloadable air burst grenade system to defeat multiple incoming targets.
 

gf0012-aust

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Well, like my friends computer processor sounds like, you could always put a cold air jet turbine on there...
actually, the thing you want to do is reduce power consumption issues - not increase them by adding extra electronic cooling systems.

that may mean using a peltier solution, but I'm not aware of any milspec peltiers.

processor cooling is better served by smaller and smarter coding practice etc..... eg, ASM/ADA may not be elegant, but its a hell of a lot more efficient than microsoft bloat C+ etc......
 

Waylander

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How about putting the processor of the APS into the FCS compartment of a modern AFV?
This is better shielded against heat und many modern vehicles already feature air conditions for their electronics.
Or does it have to be in one package so that it can be easily installed and removed?

I agree that explosives shot into the direction of the incoming missile threat are the better solution.
5.56/7.62mm flies a long way (Not to talk of 20mm) and can be a much too big risk for other troops in the area.
Nobody who is sane would advertise to fire rounds nearly randomly into every direction.
 
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