Arms race: Greece & Turkey

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Brit

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There seems no slow down to the Hellenic Airforce’s (Greece) arms build-up, with many significant aircraft/missile orders being made. In fact, Greek air assets appear out of proportion to the country’s size and international standing (sorry to any proud Greeks BTW). The procurement pattern appears to imply an offensive bias rather than defensive, with ever longer ranged aircraft, and enhanced strike equipment.

Bog standard paper analysis: Combat aircraft and related systems

The mainstay is the F-16C/D, about140* of which are in service/on order (at least 100 in service now). They are equipped with AMRAAM and Sidewinder, with 350 IRIS-T advanced missiles to be delivered from 2006 for the latest Block 52+ aircraft. The IRIS-T is an advanced short-range AAM analogous with the AIM-9X, ASRAAM etc. The fact that only 65 corresponding helmet-mounted cueing systems have been order suggests that these missiles won’t be employed on the earlier block30/50 aircraft. The block 52+ aircraft have the conformal tanks, giving them excellent range, and leading to press references about their strike tasking -contradictorily, having IRIS-T suggests an air-air role.

Of the older F-16s, one squadron of F-16 block 50s is equipped with LANTIRN pods for all weather precision strike and the other with HARM anti-radiation missiles for SEAD work. These two squadrons are less likely to be deployed in conventional air-air roles unless pressed. The other Block 30 F-16s remain credible although the gap between them and their newer cousins is widening, though Lightning II targeting pods are on order for them (15 pods, to be shared with the F-4 fleet), implying a shift from air-air to air-ground tasking for the older F-16s.

However, as if this latest order of F-16s isn’t enough, in July 2005 the Greek government confirmed the purchase of 30 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. This came as a bit of a surprise, as previous deals for between 60-90 Eurofighters had floundered and it was generally suspected that the block 52+ F-16 order replaced it. I would speculate that the Eurofighter will be employed primarily for air superiority, where it outclasses everything in the TAF fleet, until any future introduction of F35. The Eurofighter is likely to be equipped with an AMRAAM/IRIS-T weapons fit and possibly Meteor BVR missiles when they become available.

We should not forget the Mirage 2000, which has seen good service in HAF. The original EG/BG models are to be concerntrated in a single squadron equipped with Exocet anti-ship missiles (At least 39 ordered in late 90’s), although they should keep their respectable air-air capabilities (now way short of the later F-16 fleet). They are supplemented by 15 new Mirage 2000-5 aircraft, plus several airframe conversions, equipped with MICA AAMs (100 Radar-guided and 100 IR-guided). The purchase of MICA somewhat duplicates the IRIS-T/AMRAAM purchases, giving the HAF a broader threat profile –which is inherently expensive relative to force rationalization popular in other European airforces;bthe disadvantage of logistics being more than made up for by less reliance on single systems, especially those such as AMRAAM and AIM-9 which the TAF has first hand knowledge of.

Finally for the fast jets, the F-4 fleet is soldiering on in the strike role, whilst the A-7 is all but retired.

The Greek army deploys a squadron of AH-64 gunships and a few Hind (notionally in Cypriot colours). These are likely to be augmented with further attack helicopter purchases, probably more Ah-64s (idle speculation on airframe choices).

The last factor is SAM systems. The Greeks deploy an unusually wide range of SAM systems for a European nation. The older Hawk medium range systems have been augmented with Russian designed SA-8 Gecko as well as the much more advanced SA-15 Gauntlet system. And then some later generation Crotale systems, themselves highly regarded.

The Cypriots have some S-300 (SA-12) which are essentially under Greek control and represent a very formidably long range threat to TAF.

As if the S-300 wasn’t enough, the Greeks also have Patriot SAM. Again, a layered approach implying that they expect combat sooner rather than later (i.e. cost considerations which lead to fleet rationalization being put aside).

The question is, can the Turks compete -anyone know the Turkish situation?



*Not sure of attrition figures
 
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polaris

New Member
Congragulations!!! Your airforces will be the best in Europe! Eagean is yours now.:D
In my opinion we have to forget about the war between Greece and Turkey anymore.Thats impossible. Turkey is aware of that and no need the race now.And no need to pay money foreign defence ind. companies anymore.
Its time to pay money for your own investigations and your own companies which will be supply your own arms soon.Thats why Greek airforces look like much stronger in these days. I would like to count all projects in Turkish army here but its the subject of another thread.
My point is: You cant be the 1st with others arms.But you have some chance if you have yours... This is the main strategy of Turkish army today.
Bestregards...
 

341-Phalanx

New Member
Greece can't race with Turkey in armament. First, There is no balance between Turkey and Greece. Greece maybe can race with Denmark, Netherland or Belgium.

Turkey has 220 F-16 Fighting Falcons. They are Blk30s, Blk40s and Blk50s. F-16 Blk50s have latest avionics and systems. Other Turkish vipers will be upgraded with CCIP(F-16 Common Configuration Implementation) program by 2012. . All of the F16s in TUAF can carry AMRAAM and AIM-9M and fly all weather and night. Block 50s have sead mission capability with HARM missiles.

F-16 Modernization Program for Turkey (CCIP)

180 AN/APG-68(V)9 radars;
7 full mission trainers for upgrade/replacement;
200 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
200 AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles (NVG);
4 AGM-84H Joint Standoff Land Attack Missile-Expanded Response (SLAM-ER);
4 AGM-84 Harpoon missiles;
6 AIM-120C Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
4 drones (aerial targets);
1 AGM-154B Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW);
1 AGM-154A JSOW;
2 AIM-9X Sidewinder missiles;
2 CBU-103 Cluster Bomb Units with Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD);
2 CBU-105 Sensor Fused Weapon with WCMD;
1 AGM-88B High-Speed Anti-Radiation Missiles (HARM);
2 AN/ASQ-213 HARM Targeting System (export) (HTS(E).




TUAF have 154 F-4 Phantom. 56 Phatom upgraded to Terminator 2020 by Israel aircraft industries and partially by the TUAF. With this upgrade these phantoms had powerfull AG mission capability.

Turkish army will order 140 attack helicopter. Competitors for this order are Tiger, Agusta, Ka-50, Apache and King Cobra. Note : Greece's apaches don't have Longbow radar.

Fighters
76 F-16C/D Block 50
104 F-16C/D Block 40
37 F-16C/D Block 30
52 F-4E 2020 Terminator
84 F-4E Phantom
18 RF-4E Phantom
n/a F-5 2000 (48 trainers under delivery)
9 (N)F-5A/B Freedom Fighter (Turkish Stars)


Air-to-air missiles
314 AIM-120A/B AMRAAM (176 AIM-120A + 138 AIM-120B)
367 AIM-7E Sparrow
500 AIM-9M Sidewinder
640 AIM-9L/I Sidewinder
310 AIM-9S Sidewinder
750+ AIM-9P3 Sidewinder


Air-to-ground missiles
96 AGM-88B HARM
100 Popeye I
n/a Delilah II Cruise missile (50 ordered)
274 AGM-65G Maverick IIR
550 AGM-65A/B Maverick
200 GBU 8/B HOBOS
1.200 Paveway I-II
523 BLU 107 Durandal
n/a AN/AVQ 23 Pave Spike (laser designation pod for F-4E)
40 AN/AAQ 14 LANTIRN
40 AN/AAQ 13 LANTIRN
n/a Litening-III (20 under delivery, 20 optional)
12 LOROPS-IR
Anti-aircraft missiles
n/a I-Hawk PIP III (1X3) launchers (48 launchers to be delivered in 2005)
72 MIM-14B Nike Hercules
86 Rapier FSB1 (85 launchers updated to Rapier B1X level. 840 additional Mk2B missiles under delivery)
n/a Zipkin KMS (1X4 FIM-92 mounted Stinger) (32 ordered)
108 FIM-92C Stinger RMP


Tactical transport aircrafts
A400M (10 ordered)
7 C-130E Hercules (to be upgraded)
5 C-130B Hercules (With ELINT/SIGINT equipment)
<16 C-160T Transall
CN 235-100M (3 VIP/16 EW)
7 KC-135R-CRAG Stratotanker


Early warning aircrafts
0 B-737-700/MESA THEIK (4 ordered, 2 optional)


Helicopters
20 AS 532UL Cougar Mk1 (14 SAR+6 CSAR)
36 Bell UH-1H Iroquois (20 SAR, 4 EW, 12 utility)
 
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Brit

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Polaris, not my air force. I'm a Brit as my username implies. And I approach this unbiased. Let’s leave patriotism at the door….

Phalanx... ironic name? j/k.

Interesting stuff. Do you agree that TuAF Block 50 F-16s are not better than Greece's block 52+ aircraft? Remember that Greece also has HARM, PGM etc capability. With the exception of the AIM-9X, which is yet in service with TuAF(?), nearly every armament you’ve mentioned is something that the Greeks have first hand operating experience of, whereas the same is not true vice versa. Consequently, would you agree that the Greeks are in a better position to employ countermeasures against say TuAF AMRAAM than the TuAF would be against HAF MICA?

Both Greece and Turkey's F-4s are somewhat upgraded, the Turkish Terminator appears to have the edge. But as a strike aircraft, it would come into direct threat of HAF F-16s, Mirage and in the not too distant future, Eurofighter aircraft, not to mention a myriad of advanced SAM systems -introduction over Greek territory would be no push-over(?). Turkish F-16s are no doubt a worthy adversary for anyone, but can they really maintain sufficient air superiority over Greek territory to allow the TuAF F-4s to operate anything like as freely as, say, USAF interdiction aircraft did over Iraq?

Also, who has the most attack helicopters is a moot point. Greece already has some Apaches and Hind, whilst Turkey has some aging Cobras. Both are effective –Turkish future attack helicopter numbers are every bit as notional as Greece’s, who are similarly reported to be intending to buy more. Let’s face it; the Turkish AH acquisition has been every bit as laborious as the Greek’s Eurofighter sagas, if not moreso. Don’t count your eggs before they hatch.

And at any rate, attack helicopters are primarily defensive, against troops and armor. It’s not so much who has more, as whether both sides can employ them effectively in any land battle that may ensue. On their own territory, the likely answer is yes in both cases. Over eachother’s territory, it becomes less likely.

So the crux, as ever, falls to air superiority. In any situation, who is most likely to have it. If neither can achieve it, which seems likely, then systems like F-4, attack helicopters etc, seem less decisive. Agreed?


EDIT: purhaps the only good news for the TuAF is that with Greece buying so many F-16s/Eurofighters, it probably won't be in a position to byuy F-35s for some time to come.
 
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polaris

New Member
Im a patriot but not a fashist nasionalist. i Thought there are some diffrences between them right?;)

What i mean that Greece modernizing its airforce in a heavy motion but what for?? I totally respect their decision if its to protect their country against to Macedonia:p: . But i suggest them no need to pay much money if they are purchasing them against Turkey.Cause there is no danger from this side anymore. And i think no one thinks they are preparing to make convince Turkey to agree their politics in eagean cyprus by buying too many aircrafts, tanks etc...

Turkish army's purpose is to protect its main land and politics and they manage to do it in all the way which Turkey was built 82 years ago and now there is no serious thread from outside of the country. Greece, Iran, Syria (Armenia:D ) is not a threat to Turkey anymore. So no need to buy big cost armements.

I hope i never see that kind of news :"Turkey made deal with Germany to buy 1000 Leopard 2 A6 EX". We have time now that we never had before to make our own armement...
 

turin

New Member
Brit said:
However, as if this latest order of F-16s isn’t enough, in July 2005 the Greek government confirmed the purchase of 30 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. This came as a bit of a surprise, as previous deals for between 60-90 Eurofighters had floundered and it was generally suspected that the block 52+ F-16 order replaced it. I would speculate that the Eurofighter will be employed primarily for air superiority, where it outclasses everything in the TAF fleet, until any future introduction of F35. The Eurofighter is likely to be equipped with an AMRAAM/IRIS-T weapons fit and possibly Meteor BVR missiles when they become available.


You are probably mixing things up here. In July 2005 Greece anounced to procure another 30 used F-16, to be upgraded to Block 52+. After the last elections in 2004 the plans for procurement of 60 Eurofighters were effectively scrapped. The F-16 are meant for slight reinforcement and replacement of lost F-16 AC. It remains to be seen, what kind of 4th generation aircraft the HAF will procure in the future.

See: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=45423#post45423

The last factor is SAM systems. ... The question is, can the Turks compete -anyone know the Turkish situation?
I think that the turkish SAM systems are possibly the one serious weakness of their forces. While they are modernizing existing installations and units, the SAM employed are basically quite dated designs. Greece on the other hand, while employing some dated units itself, employs some more effective systems, namely the Patriot batteries.
 
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Brit

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turin said:
You are probably mixing things up here. In July 2005 Greece anounced to procure another 30 used F-16, to be upgraded to Block 52+. After the last elections in 2004 the plans for procurement of 60 Eurofighters were effectively scrapped. The F-16 are meant for slight reinforcement and replacement of lost F-16 AC. It remains to be seen, what kind of 4th generation aircraft the HAF will procure in the future.

See: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=45423#post45423
No, the situation has change. The Eurofighter is back in -an order 30 Eurofighters announced in July -source AirForces Monthly which, tends to be reliable(?). Same source quotes 60 Block52+ aircraft which I think are newbuild. Anyone care to verify these figures -maybe someone who is a member at Janes?
 

turin

New Member
I am very sure then, they made a mistake (that would be a major one though). Not even on the official homepage of the Eurofighter Consortium such an announcement can be found and I assure you, they would be the first to do so. Dito for every other source I know. All the greek gouvernment said was that there is still a plan to procure some thirty next generation aircraft, so it is (correctly) assumed by several sources, that the Eurofighter is still in the race.
Also I could not find anything verifying the number of 60 F-16. Instead several sources clearly state the number of 30 F-16 Block 52+ and another (older) 10 F-16 for attrition replacements. See for example http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article1414.html . It would make quite a fuss if the EF was selected by another country since the AC as of now only found one customer outside the four countries of the consortium.
 

Brit

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I am very sure then, they made a mistake (that would be a major one though). Not even on the official homepage of the Eurofighter Consortium such an announcement can be found and I assure you, they would be the first to do so. Dito for every other source I know. All the greek gouvernment said was that there is still a plan to procure some thirty next generation aircraft, so it is (correctly) assumed by several sources, that the Eurofighter is still in the race.
Also I could not find anything verifying the number of 60 F-16. Instead several sources clearly state the number of 30 F-16 Block 52+ and another (older) 10 F-16 for attrition replacements. See for example http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article1414.html . It would make quite a fuss if the EF was selected by another country since the AC as of now only found one customer outside the four countries of the consortium.
Thanks, it seems AFM is for once wrong on simething major. :confused:
 

diopos

New Member
Hello to all ! I am new here , and i would like to confirm that for now there is no news about Eurofighter (due to finance reasons).
As you probably know the government now is focused to reduce the deficit under 3% next year (yesterday the commisioner Almugna was in Athens for talks about that).
My prediction is that next year and if everything goes well with the national economy , we will see an order of 30-40 EF.
But untill then perhaps is too early for other talks.

@Polaris
I also wish to see a decline in military orders in the next years (especially now that Turkey has started negotiations and should also focus on other things).
I personally see , a stall in the next years , perhaps some few orders but not like in the past.
I do not see a major conflict , but from time to time "some people" want to create minor tensions so they can sell their weapons again.
(Uncle Sam is not so stupid to loose 2 devoted customers).

@Brit i read your article , perhaps you exaserate a bit .
I dont see something very unusual , its just that the last years there was an upgrade of the air defence , we are a nato country and we should modernize from time to time some systems thats all.
But of course i would also like to see less money spend in military in the next years, other fields of the economy and society need more money.
 

Pursuit Curve

New Member
Brit said:


There seems no slow down to the Hellenic Airforce’s (Greece) arms build-up, with many significant aircraft/missile orders being made. In fact, Greek air assets appear out of proportion to the country’s size and international standing (sorry to any proud Greeks BTW). The procurement pattern appears to imply an offensive bias rather than defensive, with ever longer ranged aircraft, and enhanced strike equipment.

Bog standard paper analysis: Combat aircraft and related systems

The mainstay is the F-16C/D, about140* of which are in service/on order (at least 100 in service now). They are equipped with AMRAAM and Sidewinder, with 350 IRIS-T advanced missiles to be delivered from 2006 for the latest Block 52+ aircraft. The IRIS-T is an advanced short-range AAM analogous with the AIM-9X, ASRAAM etc. The fact that only 65 corresponding helmet-mounted cueing systems have been order suggests that these missiles won’t be employed on the earlier block30/50 aircraft. The block 52+ aircraft have the conformal tanks, giving them excellent range, and leading to press references about their strike tasking -contradictorily, having IRIS-T suggests an air-air role.

Of the older F-16s, one squadron of F-16 block 50s is equipped with LANTIRN pods for all weather precision strike and the other with HARM anti-radiation missiles for SEAD work. These two squadrons are less likely to be deployed in conventional air-air roles unless pressed. The other Block 30 F-16s remain credible although the gap between them and their newer cousins is widening, though Lightning II targeting pods are on order for them (15 pods, to be shared with the F-4 fleet), implying a shift from air-air to air-ground tasking for the older F-16s.

However, as if this latest order of F-16s isn’t enough, in July 2005 the Greek government confirmed the purchase of 30 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. This came as a bit of a surprise, as previous deals for between 60-90 Eurofighters had floundered and it was generally suspected that the block 52+ F-16 order replaced it. I would speculate that the Eurofighter will be employed primarily for air superiority, where it outclasses everything in the TAF fleet, until any future introduction of F35. The Eurofighter is likely to be equipped with an AMRAAM/IRIS-T weapons fit and possibly Meteor BVR missiles when they become available.

We should not forget the Mirage 2000, which has seen good service in HAF. The original EG/BG models are to be concerntrated in a single squadron equipped with Exocet anti-ship missiles (At least 39 ordered in late 90’s), although they should keep their respectable air-air capabilities (now way short of the later F-16 fleet). They are supplemented by 15 new Mirage 2000-5 aircraft, plus several airframe conversions, equipped with MICA AAMs (100 Radar-guided and 100 IR-guided). The purchase of MICA somewhat duplicates the IRIS-T/AMRAAM purchases, giving the HAF a broader threat profile –which is inherently expensive relative to force rationalization popular in other European airforces;bthe disadvantage of logistics being more than made up for by less reliance on single systems, especially those such as AMRAAM and AIM-9 which the TAF has first hand knowledge of.

Finally for the fast jets, the F-4 fleet is soldiering on in the strike role, whilst the A-7 is all but retired.

The Greek army deploys a squadron of AH-64 gunships and a few Hind (notionally in Cypriot colours). These are likely to be augmented with further attack helicopter purchases, probably more Ah-64s (idle speculation on airframe choices).

The last factor is SAM systems. The Greeks deploy an unusually wide range of SAM systems for a European nation. The older Hawk medium range systems have been augmented with Russian designed SA-8 Gecko as well as the much more advanced SA-15 Gauntlet system. And then some later generation Crotale systems, themselves highly regarded.

The Cypriots have some S-300 (SA-12) which are essentially under Greek control and represent a very formidably long range threat to TAF.

As if the S-300 wasn’t enough, the Greeks also have Patriot SAM. Again, a layered approach implying that they expect combat sooner rather than later (i.e. cost considerations which lead to fleet rationalization being put aside).

The question is, can the Turks compete -anyone know the Turkish situation?



*Not sure of attrition figures

In my opinion having so many different platforms, different parts, different pilot requirements etc etc is the sign of an amature defense department or someone that has to much money to spend, I sure feel sorry for the General in charge of logistics on this project. It seems more like the greeks are also buying influence around the western world by buying alot of aircraft and other equipment from as many suppliers as possible.

Whats next, building another Island just to find space to put the extra airfields!
 

diopos

New Member
In my opinion having so many different platforms, different parts, different pilot requirements etc etc is the sign of an amature defense department or someone that has to much money to spend, I sure feel sorry for the General in charge of logistics on this project. It seems more like the greeks are also buying influence around the western world by buying alot of aircraft and other equipment from as many suppliers as possible.

Whats next, building another Island just to find space to put the extra airfields!
Thanks for posting your opinion.

Well the GDP percentage spent in military is among the 5 largest in NATO , but still the money are not so much like in bigger countries.
There is for sure always a political game behind military orders (first teacher of this is US , everytime there is a new announcement for buying a weapon there is huge pressure from ambassadors,Ramsfeld etc. to buy their systems).
But it is far away from thinking of amateur movements , i would call them strategical.
Like some other friends wrote above , even in the framework of NATO it is always better to be less dependent from only one source of equippment.
Dont forget also that the best judges are the same the users of the systems , and they know much better (after real tests- rankings) which system fits their needs.
As an example was the case of the 5 main battle tanks tested all of them under hard conditions in north greece mountains , and the army people decided that the best was Leopard2.
Of course US has a huge military industry and many systems are the best but not all .
There , a free country has the right (and if it has the money also) to buy alternative systems from other countries.
I dont see any problem except the only fact that you have to accept , the more costly and difficult logistic support , but that is a price that you also have to pay if you choose this way.
 

diopos

New Member
341-Phalanx said:
Turkish army will order 140 attack helicopter. Competitors for this order are Tiger, Agusta, Ka-50, Apache and King Cobra. Note : Greece's apaches don't have Longbow radar.
Good luck !
Turkey is large country but with megalomania many times , like another friend wrote above lets look how to make our region more peacefull then antagonize...

Regarding your comment about the Apaches , Greece has 24 AH-64A and has ordered (2003) 12 more AH-64D Longbow Apaches which are currently under delivery. (+3 option)
 

polaris

New Member
I supposed that export of Longbow radar system to other countries is prohibeted by USA. And again i supposed that AH 64 D versions could be exported without that radar.im not sure...

As to megalomania, :) in all issues, Greece have claims not Turkey. We recognize our present borders ( as we called it :misakı milli ) and just trying to protect them according to all legal deals made at past. Thanks to!!! Greece claims and cold war , we needed to had a major army in area when people of anatolia was inable to send their daughters to school because of being poor. So please let us to proud of this army!!!

As i only wanted to tell you is, 12 AH 64 A Aphaches, 24 AH 64 D aphaches never enough for these claims. Its over anymore. Its really over. Turkish Government and especially Turkish Army Officers are now aware of that slogan:" stop armemant. make it by your self if you can"

I hope you understand what i mean.

BRGDS...
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
polaris said:
I supposed that export of Longbow radar system to other countries is prohibeted by USA. And again i supposed that AH 64 D versions could be exported without that radar.im not sure...
Not so, Longbow is exported to other countries...

First AH-64D Apache Longbow for Kuwait Delivered
Boeing Co
Wed, 17 Aug 2005, 15:51



ST. LOUIS: The U.S. government, on behalf of the Government of Kuwait, accepted Kuwait’s first AH-64D Apache Longbow multi-role combat helicopter from Boeing.

The Apache Longbow, delivered in July from The Boeing Mesa, Ariz., facility, is the first of a 16 Apache foreign military sales order with the U.S. Department of Defense for the Kuwaiti government. The aircraft will remain in the United States until next year to undergo a series of qualification tests.



Additional procurements are being considered by Saudi Arabia, Israel, Singapore, Kuwait, Greece and Taiwan. - source
 

turin

New Member
Several countries already operate Longbows, amongst them the UK, the Netherlands, Israel and Egypt, there is no such restriction. Several other countries upgraded existing helicopters or procured new ones, Webmaster already mentioned some of these.

And yes: the AH-64D can be ordered without the Longbow radar. Such a version is also in use with the US Army. It features all the Longbow features, yet lacks the FCR, the RFI (Radar Frequency Interferometer) and the upgraded engines.
 

beleg

New Member
diopos said:
Good luck !
Turkey is large country but with megalomania many times , like another friend wrote above lets look how to make our region more peacefull then antagonize...

Regarding your comment about the Apaches , Greece has 24 AH-64A and has ordered (2003) 12 more AH-64D Longbow Apaches which are currently under delivery. (+3 option)
We are neither megalomaniac nor will order 140 helos in one batch.. Infact being a country with a population of 70 million compared to Greeces 11(roughly x7), and a geography also roughly 6 times bigger to be defended, 140 seems small when compared to 36(+3) of Greeces which is only 4 times of what Greece has.. So who is the megalomaniac here?

Anyway like you said above ay country has right to buy what they see that they need to defend their borders.. Please refain from accusing another countries choices. Attack helos are vital against the fight against terrorist rebels. Most of our attack helos currently serve in eastern Turkey not in west and the ones that will be purchased will also start serving there first.

I dont think that neither Turkey nor Greece will cut the military spendings drastically until the end of this decade at least. If Turkey becomes a member of EU then you can expect a major drop, not before that.

My best regards.
 

diopos

New Member
Beleg you are right , but i was not refering so much to the population which is of course very large , but to military spends compared to other big countries of western europe.But of course it is different becaue Turkey has very long borders in the estern side and also the total area is larger then this of France or Spain .
By the way i read in the last sundays newspapers that the government in Greece is determined to cut the military budjet untill it goes to 3% of GDP instead of more then 5% that it is now.
Probably Turkey will follow since this decade is the decade of negotiations with EU for full membership.
But who knows , (we know that uncle Sam will be completely dissapointed if the two countries stop giving billions of dollars to US companies for buying military products...).
greetings :)
 

beleg

New Member
Hmm.. i though i read the reduction is only for the next year to meet the economical standard of EU and then will return back to normal state (%5+) right after 2007.

I also hope that the future will be brighter for us with less and less money spent on arms but Greece is in a luckier position here, once the threat from east removed for you guys the remaining threat is only from tiny countries like Macedonia (FYROM) and Albania which is only a joke for the power of Greek Armed forces.

On the contrary we will still have to deal with an ambitious Iran on east which is trying to gain access to nuclear weapons. There are the existing issues with Armenia(and her big brother Russia), Syria and Iraq(possibly the Kurds).. I cant be optimist about reducing the spendings much below %5 because of all of these..

Thats is why i am in favor of solving our problems with Greece and join the EU which will increase security and prosperity in the Balkans and Europe thus overall effect both of our countries.. But today it looks only as distant future.
 
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