Venezuelan F16s
- Thread starter shrubage
- Start date
I just don't understand your comment. Are you saying that us buying 24 planes is not unjustified? so are we not supposed to have an air force? because I don't think 24 planes is a big number and it doesn't represent a threat to anyone. If you would comment about us buying a 100 or 120 planes is not justified I would agree with you. We have a veto that has obligated us to change all our equipment and believe the planes we bought weren't meant to fight a U.S invasion, those planes were bought because we have to maintain an equilibrium or deterrence with our neighbor, specially with Colombia which we have a long history of territorial dispute. Let me remind you that Colombia has over 300 thousand soldiers (we are not even near half that number) and the biggest spending in defense in LA. We also have Brazil as a neighbor which we have good relations. I also don see any problem with operating 2 types of jets we have always operated 3 and summed up is still a small number.
-regarding the f-16's, most probably we are going to keep replacing them with russian planes. Also, FAV doesn't like too much chinese planes. Our first intuitions were to buy yak's as trainers but they were going to take too long and we needed trainer's right away, so that's why we chose the k-8.
yes we have a project called CAVCA http://fav-club.com/articulos/cavca/CAVCA.pdf
it's for COIN planes
we have a group in facebook called aviamil you guys are more than welcome and a forum called fav-club.com if you guys have problem with the language we will try to help you guys with english or spanish
for my colombian friends I don't mean to create any problems, I disagree and am very ashamed of my governments last action so from a venezuelan I'm sorry
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #43
No you're correct 24 isn't a particularly large number of aircraft, my question related to keeping 3 seperate types of fighter jets (F5, F16, SU 30) in your nations inventory. Is it really neccessary to find a replacement for the F16s and F5s when the SU 30s come into service.
Its not justified by any realistic threat that Venezuela faces. Colombia has 2 dozen old mirage jets with no BVR capability. Rather than ensure your venezuela's security it could spark a regional arms race. I'm sure there are better uses for the money.
Even if Hugo Chavez's nightmare comes true and the US invades, spending every petro dollar in the country on fighter aircraft isn't going to make a difference.
the su-30's are the replacement for the f-16's. Until we don't get a 100% operation capability for the su-30 and get the k-8 for trainers we can't get rid of the f-16's and f-5's.
we have always have air superiority, it is a way to compensate our lack of number that's what I mean by trying to create an equilibrium.
and who says we are spending all of our money buying aircraft, I'm sure if we would have done that it would have been more than 24.
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #45
This is what my original question was in reference to. When the SU 30s go operational is he going to dispose of the F5s and F16s other posters in this thread seem to think that the SU 30s are in addition to any further replacements.
I'm sorry but its completely disingenuous to say that Colombia has a larger army than you. Colombia’s army is heavy on manpower but geared totally towards counter insurgency. Its in no way a threat to the current Venezuelan army, let alone after its finished buying BMP 3s, MI 35s and new MBTs.
I was one of those people that were cautiously optimistic about Hugo Chavez when he was elected. Granted the military needed modernisation. However each one of those SU 30s is the price of a hospital wing, money that could have been better spent on sorting out the myriad of social problems that were the reason for his election in the first place.
What do you think going to happen he orders the next tranche of fighter aircraft, the MI 35s arrive and he places an order for 400 new MBTs. You don't think possibly that a regional arms race is going to start with the US offering cut price goodies to any of his neighbours that want them?. So you'll have a region full of developing economies sinking their money into weapon systems.
Pretty much the whole of South America is re-arming already as equipment reaches the end of it's lifespan, & the US is pulling less & less weight there. The only country they are likely to offer large discounts to is Columbia, & they do that anyway.
The only country making noises in the region about an arms race because of Venezuela is Columbia, which is pretty much a US client state.
The US have sold a big order of F-16's to Chile, as well as updating there older ones, but this was standard arms sales.
Chile has also bought a large order of Leopard tanks from the Germans.
Peru is updating what they can afford, mostly with Russian weaponry because they already have the infrastructure for it as well as it generally being cheaper.
And regional heavyweight Brazil is currently undergoing a large fighter competition, as well as looking to upgrade much of the rest of their forces.
Venezuela's arms purchases are pretty much on par for their position in the region, just better managed than most. (Chile probably ahead by a bit in this though)
As to "each one of those SU 30s is the price of a hospital wing, money that could have been better spent on sorting out the myriad of social problems that were the reason for his election in the first place",
the same could be said about any country, including the US.
As to the original topic, it looks like a squadron of SU-35BM's somewhere around 2011/2012 is the likely choice.
Smart choice in my opinion. They will already have the infrastructure for the similar SU-30's in place, common weapons load, & added capability.
Even though other countries in the region (Brazil, Chile) would be ahead in numbers, this airforce would put in a lot of punch for the numbers, & appropiate respect applied.
Both the SU-30 & SU-35 have excellent multi-role capability with very good range - very suitable for maratime patrol/strike, which is a major factor to take into consideration with Venezuala's long coastline.
The only country making noises in the region about an arms race because of Venezuela is Columbia, which is pretty much a US client state.
The US have sold a big order of F-16's to Chile, as well as updating there older ones, but this was standard arms sales.
Chile has also bought a large order of Leopard tanks from the Germans.
Peru is updating what they can afford, mostly with Russian weaponry because they already have the infrastructure for it as well as it generally being cheaper.
And regional heavyweight Brazil is currently undergoing a large fighter competition, as well as looking to upgrade much of the rest of their forces.
Venezuela's arms purchases are pretty much on par for their position in the region, just better managed than most. (Chile probably ahead by a bit in this though)
As to "each one of those SU 30s is the price of a hospital wing, money that could have been better spent on sorting out the myriad of social problems that were the reason for his election in the first place",
the same could be said about any country, including the US.
As to the original topic, it looks like a squadron of SU-35BM's somewhere around 2011/2012 is the likely choice.
Smart choice in my opinion. They will already have the infrastructure for the similar SU-30's in place, common weapons load, & added capability.
Even though other countries in the region (Brazil, Chile) would be ahead in numbers, this airforce would put in a lot of punch for the numbers, & appropiate respect applied.
Both the SU-30 & SU-35 have excellent multi-role capability with very good range - very suitable for maratime patrol/strike, which is a major factor to take into consideration with Venezuala's long coastline.
the su-30 are a solution for the lack of spear part of the f-16's and f-5's.
OH yes i'm sure you can say that because you are not on the opposite side against a 300 thousand army compared with one that doesn't even make 100
thousand. Ragarding the tanks nothing has been bought yet and they are bought only to replace our obsolete fleet. Also, there are indications that Colombia is going to buy Leo1 tanks faced down by Chile. Why do you want to talk about tanks when this is not the topic?
OH yes I'm sure we can talk about social issues, specialy regarding healthcare in the U.S. But my question is, why do you want to focus on social issues when we are in a military forum?
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #48
The original topic was the implications of 21 F16s being offered on the open market without any end user controls.
Also it’s debatable that the purchase of a twin engine high performance jet with massive maintenance implications is a smart choice. As well as the initial outlay for the aircraft themselves they are going to suck up money from Venezuela’s budget while in service.
As with Macman the majority of posters seem to believe that an additional purchase of Aircraft will replace the F16s and F5s not this particular batch of aircraft. As far as I can tell there is no stated intention to take either the F5s or F16s out of service with the arrival of the SU30s.
Modernisation of the Air Force is overdue. 24 SU 30s while not ideal does it adequately. What I made an issue of was proposed massive expansion in the face of no clear threat.
In my previous post I gave my reasons why comparing manpower between the two armies is disingenuous. A quick glance at the Orbat of both countries shows that the Colombian army and air force are geared almost totally towards counter insurgency hence the huge number of personal. It is possible that Colombia will get some hand-me-down Leopard 1 tanks but that doesn't justify a possible 500 T90s and 48 MI 35s.
So again when people discuss the smart choice for yet further aircraft purchases, I would suggest that its not off topic to discuss some of the repercussions namely a regional arms race and the squandering of Venezuela’s oil wealth.
sir the spare parts for the f-16 and f-5 are vetoed (i dont't Know if that is the correct english word), so it is obvious that they are not going to last too long. About the su-30's they have just arrived so they are not 100% fully operational that's why f-16's and f-5's form still an important role in FAV. Furthermore, the mirage were retired at the beginning of this year. to add more the OV-10 broncos are also vetoed along with the c-130's and I think the tucanos are also vetoed along with the t-6 buckeye which were retired so I don't think modernization is overdue.
about the 500 t-90's I don't know were you got the information but it is wrong.
Also we only bought 12 Mi-35s for the army
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Sir, another point would be against which neighbour would he be able to actively due something? Colombia, which probably has the most experienced army and air force in Latin America right now, due to its continuous drug-funded guerrilla? Or Brazil, which is about 10 times as big, and has a strong industrial base. That base would allow us, in my point of view, to give Chavez really serious problems to think about, even without any international involvement. He may also want to tackle France, since French Guayana is a department of France...
I can´t see any logical reason for his weapons purchase, especially idiotic things such as buying 100000 rifles, and manufacturing licenses for more, for a population aroung 20000000 people...
As far as I can see, which is about one hand from my nose in military related topics, most recent Venezuelan weapon systems acquisitions are hard to justify on a defense basis, and I just can´t see which country Venezuela could have reasonable expectations to need to attack...
Regards to all, and congratulations on the high level of the discussion.
Mario
The MBT purchase was reported recently, when Venezuela took interest in Russian tanks, and were interested in T-72's, but were offered T-90's. A few newspapers ran the article, but nothing has been heard of since.
I was under the impression that the Su-30's were here to replace the Mirage's of the FAV, and the Su-35's were going to replace the F-16's. And finally why would the Su-30's not be operational? Deliveries were completed iirc last year. Even a maintenance center has been set up there by Sukhoi.
I was under the impression that the Su-30's were here to replace the Mirage's of the FAV, and the Su-35's were going to replace the F-16's. And finally why would the Su-30's not be operational? Deliveries were completed iirc last year. Even a maintenance center has been set up there by Sukhoi.
wimpymouse
Banned Member
I dunno if you're testing me here, I find the answers obvious, specially considering you being from Brazil.
In short:
1) The US has since Chavez took power been funding various groups mainly through NED and USAID, but also through other organizations also calling them selves NGO's (even thought they're gvmnt funded) like the IRI. They have also been giving advises through the Albert Einstein institute on democracy destabilizating acts, incl the April 2002 coup and the three month lockout during winter 2002-2003.
This information has come out through the Freedom Of Information Act, FOIA, by request from US-VE civil rights lawyer Eva Golinger and written about in her book, The Chavez Code. All documents are copied into the book. I recomend it to anyone out to understand how the US of today acts in stuff that previously was handled by the CIA; Orange revolution, Serbian equivalent (pink revolution?), et al.
But this all is just a continuation of the Monroe Doctrine.
2) US interests are:
a) Secure energy for their economys future growth (just like what they did/do in Gulf war I and II, their backing of Georgia, and their assurans of keeping various Arab penisula gvmnts in power since the end of WWII).
b) To fight against any alternative leftist ideology and economic system that can show that can show any alternative to "the only way"; capitalism.
3) History has proven that for over 100 years now; agressive rethorics followed by action backed by an ideology that justifies this because it's their "backyard". Lately (2005?) it was Haiti's democraticly elected president Aristide who got ousted because they didn't find him in their taste. The US's primary objective is to secure energy, the secondary is to open markets for their multi national corporations.
Also, they're in A-stan and Iraq out of the same reason they're involeved in VE, it just happens that those two were older or more urgent conflicts back in 2001.
And a short joke:
So an advisor tells George Bush that two Brazilian troops were killed in Iraq. He whistles and says, "Dang, thats alot.......how many zeros in a brazilian?"
Colombia is the biggest military aid in the Americas, only after Israel and Egypt (if I'm correct). The Manta AFB in Equador is closing in exactly 12 months and the US is looking to relocate it to eastern Colombia, next to the oil rich state of Zulia. The're a massive amount of kidnappings in the two neighbouring states already so the Colombians are agressive enough to start stuff, specially since all of L.A. has started to elect far left gvmnts en mass. They sure gonna want to stay in power, not only for the sake of ideology but for the sake of power it self.
Is the SU-30MKV or the SU-35BM any capable for striking ships?
OK, I the only thing I remember reading was that Chavez had been advised to spend less on the tanks by Medvedev (?), as the T-80/90 probably doesn't have any equivalent in the area, and put the money on other military stuff instead. But I only remember this vaguely so I could be wrong.
wimpymouse
Banned Member
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4037
It most likely would. But remember that for Chavez it is of out most importance to create a multi polar world, and by supporting France here he would only be strengthening the current single pole.
France has no problem with VE because of Ingrid Betancourt, and the computers 'proving' connection between FARC and VE have been critisized by Interpol for not being evidence worthy out of many reasons. In fact, much points to that all informaiton was planted.
wimpymouse
Banned Member
With the same ruler, what would any bloody defence do against the US's $700bn defence budget? Spread the word that all countries can stop spending on arms and build their infrastructures and care for their poor uneducated peoples instead, cus it's useless to put up a fight against the US.
What has he been difficult in?
As VE can't get any spares from the US anymore, then describing it as "keeping" their F-5s and F-16s seems quite like a j/k? Besides, aren't F-16A+B's, and even more so the F-5s, singing on their last tune?
I guess the occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq aren't real enough for an occupation of VE to be realistic. Why isn't anybody thinking of Colombia that for all these years has already started the "armsrace"? Brazil is spending like a MF too..
You're forgetting that many countries have put up a fight against big countries and given them a good fight, or even kicked their buttocks, and Colombia 300.000 man army has a major problem with a few tens of thousand guerrillas, don't they? You're also forgetting about that this armament has a major psychological effect on every Venezuelan who doesn't want his country to be a puppet regime of any one.
I know it is off topic, but... I don´t think it would be fair to say Colombia is starting an arms race, with the kind of equipment they buy, and with the internal problems they face, due to their drug-financed terrorist groups.
As for Brazil, if you take values be themselves, it may be thought to be a big spender. If you relate them to economy or population, it would be clear that Brazil is among the countries with lowest spenditures on the military...
Another point is that I do not recall to see either the Brazilian or Colombian goverments with the habit of interfering with internal politics of the neighbours, while Chavez (and that is a whole different thing from Venezuela) does or tries to do that quite frequently, as can be seen by some episodes in the media.
Now getting back to topic, I would say that for now, with the external policy the Venezuelan government follows, it only has Russia as a credible military supplier, with China being a distant second choice. So, since from what I see in the news it would mean a Mig29 or SU30/35 variant, and as they already have some of the latter, that would be a no brainer.
Bombnurazz
New Member
There is no future for the F-16, he will dump his losses and keep importing new russian fighter/bombers...Im sure alot of this was discussed while Russian ships visited that area recently
wimpymouse
Banned Member
I guess that you can continue to cheer then, Chavez is Taking Care of Business in a way that would make Nino Brown and his TCB gang wet their pants. Take a look on Wikipedia and read about the 13, or so, various "missions" that he has started for his needed people.
The US in lagging behind in many things conserning social security compared to VE of today, that's what the fuss is about. The people of L.A. has seen this and it has started to change that continent as we know it.
Good post!
Thanks, that's the info I was looking for.
You're right, the topics intertwine, but you're wrong about any squandering of VE's oil wealth. Listening to the media one is led to belive that VE is buying a shipload of weapons nowdays, but infact they're spending quite similar to what they've done in the last 20 years.
http://milexdata.sipri.org/result.php4
To get some proportions of the year of 2007:
VE $1.884 million or 1.2 of GDP
CO $5.240 million or 4.0 of GDP
USA $511.187 million or 4.0 of GDP
Turkey $11.066 million or 2.8 of GDP
Greece $9.346 million or 3.8 of GDP
Say hello to mainstream media.