URGENT- Syria and Israel

sharjeel

New Member
from the August 01, 2006 edition

Hizbullah's attacks stem from Israeli incursions into Lebanon

By Anders Strindberg

NEW YORK – As pundits and policymakers scramble to explain events in Lebanon, their conclusions are virtually unanimous: Hizbullah created this crisis. Israel is defending itself. The underlying problem is Arab extremism. Sadly, this is pure analytical nonsense. Hizbullah's capture of two Israeli soldiers on July 12 was a direct result of Israel's silent but unrelenting aggression against Lebanon, which in turn is part of a six-decades long Arab-Israeli conflict.


Since its withdrawal of occupation forces from southern Lebanon in May 2000, Israel has violated the United Nations-monitored "blue line" on an almost daily basis, according to UN reports. Hizbullah's military doctrine, articulated in the early 1990s, states that it will fire Katyusha rockets into Israel only in response to Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians or Hizbullah's leadership; this indeed has been the pattern.

In the process of its violations, Israel has terrorized the general population, destroyed private property, and killed numerous civilians. This past February, for instance, 15-year-old shepherd Yusuf Rahil was killed by unprovoked Israeli cross-border fire as he tended his flock in southern Lebanon. Israel has assassinated its enemies in the streets of Lebanese cities and continues to occupy Lebanon's Shebaa Farms area, while refusing to hand over the maps of mine fields that continue to kill and cripple civilians in southern Lebanon more than six years after the war supposedly ended. What peace did Hizbullah shatter?

Hizbullah's capture of the soldiers took place in the context of this ongoing conflict, which in turn is fundamentally shaped by realities in the Palestinian territories. To the vexation of Israel and its allies, Hizbullah - easily the most popular political movement in the Middle East - unflinchingly stands with the Palestinians.

Since June 25, when Palestinian fighters captured one Israeli soldier and demanded a prisoner exchange, Israel has killed more than 140 Palestinians. Like the Lebanese situation, that flare-up was detached from its wider context and was said to be "manufactured" by the enemies of Israel; more nonsense proffered in order to distract from the apparently unthinkable reality that it is the manner in which Israel was created, and the ideological premises that have sustained it for almost 60 years, that are the core of the entire Arab-Israeli conflict.

Once the Arabs had rejected the UN's right to give away their land and to force them to pay the price for European pogroms and the Holocaust, the creation of Israel in 1948 was made possible only by ethnic cleansing and annexation. This is historical fact and has been documented by Israeli historians, such as Benny Morris. Yet Israel continues to contend that it had nothing to do with the Palestinian exodus, and consequently has no moral duty to offer redress.

For six decades the Palestinian refugees have been refused their right to return home because they are of the wrong race. "Israel must remain a Jewish state," is an almost sacral mantra across the Western political spectrum. It means, in practice, that Israel is accorded the right to be an ethnocracy at the expense of the refugees and their descendants, now close to 5 million.

Is it not understandable that Israel's ethnic preoccupation profoundly offends not only Palestinians, but many of their Arab brethren? Yet rather than demanding that Israel acknowledge its foundational wrongs as a first step toward equality and coexistence, the Western world blithely insists that each and all must recognize Israel's right to exist at the Palestinians' expense.

Western discourse seems unable to accommodate a serious, as opposed to cosmetic concern for Palestinians' rights and liberties: The Palestinians are the Indians who refuse to live on the reservation; the Negroes who refuse to sit in the back of the bus.

By what moral right does anyone tell them to be realistic and get over themselves? That it is too much of a hassle to right the wrongs committed against them? That the front of the bus must remain ethnically pure? When they refuse to recognize their occupier and embrace their racial inferiority, when desperation and frustration causes them to turn to violence, and when neighbors and allies come to their aid - some for reasons of power politics, others out of idealism - we are astonished that they are all such fanatics and extremists.

The fundamental obstacle to understanding the Arab-Israeli conflict is that we have given up on asking what is right and wrong, instead asking what is "practical" and "realistic." Yet reality is that Israel is a profoundly racist state, the existence of which is buttressed by a seemingly endless succession of punitive measures, assassinations, and wars against its victims and their allies.

A realistic understanding of the conflict, therefore, is one that recognizes that the crux is not in this or that incident or policy, but in Israel's foundational and per- sistent refusal to recognize the humanity of its Palestinian victims. Neither Hizbullah nor Hamas are driven by a desire to "wipe out Jews," as is so often claimed, but by a fundamental sense of injustice that they will not allow to be forgotten.

These groups will continue to enjoy popular legitimacy because they fulfill the need for someone - anyone - to stand up for Arab rights. Israel cannot destroy this need by bombing power grids or rocket ramps. If Israel, like its former political ally South Africa, has the capacity to come to terms with principles of democracy and human rights and accept egalitarian multiracial coexistence within a single state for Jews and Arabs, then the foundation for resentment and resistance will have been removed. If Israel cannot bring itself to do so, then it will continue to be the vortex of regional violence.

Anders Strindberg, formerly a visiting professor at Damascus University, Syria, is a consultant on Middle East politics working with European government and law-enforcement agencies. He has also covered Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinian territories as a journalist since the late 1990s, primarily for European publications.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0801/p09s02-coop.html
 

sharjeel

New Member
as we see in the maps below...what the jewish extremists believe in. these are the same extremists who did riots while the last primier of israel withdrew settlements from gaza strip...you might have heard some of these extremists saying such things as "you tell us to get out of our own land and let thesepigs live here instead" our problem is a LARGE minority is active in this mission and the majority is backing up these activists.

and ofcourse it has been confirmed by the article that was posted before this post by me and it is also confirmed by the few "ZIONists" in this very thread, who actualy WANT 1.4 billion muslims to try to squash them like a bug so the 1.6bn christians come and fight for them.....(i know it is silly after what happened in UK, germany, france, russia, italy, etc in the 19th and 20th centuries/also one must bear in mind these people directly link them selfs with the jews who got jesus the son of mary killed), never the less it shows us their mind set. and their confidence of conquering muslims (doent ask me why they want to but for some reason they just do, and have been trying for several hundred years). more confirmation coming on further...on how break peace with the muslim freedom fighters and then after a few weeks the media (it is strange how sky news and some other media are completely in the wrong direction as compared to the BBC or the CNN?) spins it out to be the muslims have bomb israel. he holy land...muslims must die (thus recruiting more in the lower echelons of the activists organisation) from the BIG pool of supporters of these people.

in the words of Moses him self:
"LET MY PEOPLE GO"

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/greater-israel-maps.htm

Eretz Israel HaShlema / Greater Israel
Click on the small image to view a larger version Tehran / Bin Laden "Greater Israel"

In February 2003 an audiotape purportedly from Osama bin Laden called President Bush "stupid" and claimed American war plans against Iraq were part of a plot to attack Muslim nations in the Middle East and North Africa. The United States' goal in waging war against Iraq is to change the regional map to benefit Israel, according to the raspy voice said to be bin Laden. "It is clear that the preparations to attack Iraq are part of a series of attacks prepared for nations of the region including Syria, Iran, Egypt and Sudan," the voice said. "The aim of the Crusaders' campaign is to prepare the atmosphere for the establishment of the so-called greater Israel state, which includes great parts of Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Jordan and large portions of (Saudi Arabia)," it said.
This conception of a Greater Israel encompassing much of the Middle East is evidently a pervasive element of popular culture in the region, and it is easy to understand how this would be taken up by bin Laden and other propgandists. By asserting that Israel seeks to occupy the territories of many other countries in the region, it places the Palestinians on the front line of a struggle common to all people in the region.

On 04 September 2001 a demonstration was held in Jerusalem to support of the Idea of the State Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates. It was organised by the movement Bead Artzein ("For the Homeland"), headed by rabbi and historian Avrom Shmulevic from Hebron. According to Shmulevic, "We shall have no peace as long as the whole territory of the Land of Israel will not return under Jewish control.... A stable peace will come only then, when Israel will return to itself all its historical lands, and will thus control both the Suez and the Ormudz channel.... We must remember that Iraqi oil fields too are located on the Jewish land."
[Source]
The Twelve Tribes

Jacob, the grandson of Abraham the Patriarch, was renamed Israel when God appeared to him when he was leaving Padn-Aram and blessed him. Jacob produced twelve sons, each of whom became the father of one of the twelve tribes of Israel: Reuven, Shimon, Levi, Yehuda, Issachar, Zevulun, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Joseph, and Benjamin.
Reuven, Gad, and Menashe (the 2 &1/2 tribes) settled in their nachala [inheritance] on the eastern bank of the Jordan River. Even though they lived outside of Biblical borders of Eretz Canaan, that they still belonged to the same nation.
Of course, the boundries of all of these entities are speculative, and sources are in disagreement on many points.
The Kingdom of David and Solomon

Biblical writings indicate that King David first united the Jewish tribes around 1000 B.C.; his influence probably extended from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Euphrates but did not included Philistia - the vicinity of the present-day Gaza Strip. Following the death of his son Solomon some 70 years later, the kingdom split into two weaker states: Israel, conquered by Assyria in 722 BC; and Judah, conquered by Babylon in 586 BC. The Kingdom of the Macabees

After a series of foreign rulers, Jews again experienced approximately a century of self-rule under the Maccabees between 166 B.C. and 63 B.C. Although the bounds of this kingdom extended into what is now western Jordan, they did not encompass parts of the Negev and Galilee that are now Israeli territory. The Roman conquest ended Jewish autonomy, and, after several Jewish revolts, Rome expelled many Jews from their homeland, which the Romans called Palestine. Most of the world's Jewish population remained outside Palestine for the next 18 centuries.
 
Last edited:

merocaine

New Member
good article, after watching CNN for a while a little history lesson is in order.

There's another good interview with 2 Hezbullah men in the same issue, elementry school teachers in there 40's who answered the call up! Good insight to Hezzbullah command and control.

as for the rest of the post, for most people the existance of a minorty of Israei extremists bent on the subjection of the arabs is old news. But they are a minority and are considered crazy by the rest of Israel.
 

contedicavour

New Member
enigmaticuk said:
What would be the outcome if Israel decided to push to damascus?
Total mayhem in Egyptian, Saudi, Moroccan streets for a starter... with regimes friendly to Iran taking power everywhere.
Ah, and by the way, Syria would be taken by Israel in less than a week. But what for ? If kept as an occupied land, it would turn like Iraq. If the IDF retreated, Assad junior would be replaced by extremists.
We just need to hope good sense prevails.

cheers
 
contedicavour said:
Ah, and by the way, Syria would be taken by Israel in less than a week. But what for ? If kept as an occupied land, it would turn like Iraq.
hightly doubt that israel can finish off the syrian army and occupy syria in less than a week. syria is larger than lebanon. israel has been at it for 25 days with hezbollah and they are still not in control of the situation on the ground in lebanon. granted there is no denying who the winner of the conflict will be.
 
Last edited:

enigmaticuk

New Member
I think we were talking about reaching damascus, which should def be poss in a week as far as all of syria that might be a little more of a challenge. But would def be made easier with other nations invlovement. If israel did push to damascus for a quick decapitation then withdraw surely others and maybe even iraq/us could be encouraged to send troops to stabilise which after the initial shock the arab street may accept and even embrace the idea.
 

Scorpius

New Member
Israeli army says Hizbollah far from defeated

By Matt Spetalnick

The Israeli army acknowledged on Monday that the Lebanese guerrilla group Hizbollah was far from defeated despite nearly a month of fierce Israeli air, sea and ground assaults.

"Crushing Hizbollah is not like ordering pizza. It takes time," Brigadier General Yossi Kuperwasser told a news conference in Jerusalem a day after Hizbollah rockets killed 15 Israelis in the deadliest day of the war for the Jewish state.

In a wide-ranging assessment, Kuperwasser said Israel had inflicted serious damage on Hizbollah but the group still possessed thousands of short-range rockets and hundreds of longer-range weapons.

He defended the region's mightiest army for its tactics against Hizbollah, suggesting political considerations had contributed to its failure to deliver a stronger blow to a group many Israelis had long considered a ragtag band.

Kuperwasser, until recently head of the army's intelligence research department, said Israeli assaults had taken a heavy toll on Hizbollah's infrastructure and rocket stockpiles

He said they had killed more than 200 of the group's fighters since the war started on July 12 with the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border Hizbollah raid.

Kuperwasser said Israel had also made significant progress carving out a swathe of southern Lebanon to quell rocket fire. Holding turf near the border is widely seen as Israel's strategy before any international peace force is deployed.

ROCKETS REMAIN

But taking a more cautious tone than some politicians who have stressed the army's successes in Lebanon, Kuperwasser conceded there was little chance of completely eliminating Hizbollah's rocket-launching capability any time soon.

"We didn't finish the problem. They still have rockets and they're going to use them," he said.

Some Israeli officials have said that up to 80 percent of Hizbollah's longer-range missiles have been destroyed.

Western diplomats believe that figure is overstated, and Kuperwasser steered clear of any precise estimate, saying only that longer-range rockets and their launchers had been hit to an extent much greater than Hizbollah had thought possible.

Kuperwasser acknowledged the military had not been fully prepared for the Lebanon war but denied it had underestimated Hizbollah's capabilities.

He made clear, however, that weeks of combat against the guerrillas had filled out the picture of a formidable enemy, which he described as well-trained, well-organized and well-equipped with Iranian and Syrian rockets.

Hizbollah's ability to inflict casualties on Israeli forces and keep up rocket strikes has won the admiration of many in the Arab world. Israeli officials say Hizbollah relies on using Lebanese civilians as human shields.

Kuperwasser signaled that further progress on the ground would depend on decisions by Israel's political leadership. It faces a looming U.N. vote on a ceasefire proposal and growing condemnation for mounting Lebanese civilian casualties.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060807/ts_nm/mideast_army_dc
 
Last edited by a moderator:
enigmaticuk said:
I think we were talking about reaching damascus, which should def be poss in a week as far as all of syria that might be a little more of a challenge.
the statement below does not mean reaching damascus!

contedicavour said:
Ah, and by the way, Syria would be taken by Israel in less than a week. But what for ? If kept as an occupied land, it would turn like Iraq.
enigmaticuk said:
If israel did push to damascus for a quick decapitation then withdraw surely others and maybe even iraq/us could be encouraged to send troops to stabilise which after the initial shock the arab street may accept and even embrace the idea

are you serious?
 
Last edited:

enigmaticuk

New Member
The discusion of hypothetical ideas amoungst intelectuals is a fantastic way to learn and develop independent ideas. Would i seriously want Israel to invade syria, no i just wanted to explore the consequences and possible solutions if they did or were forced to. The point that i believe im trying to get to is complicated. The warfare in the mid-east stirs the passions of arabs immensly, and it appears that in the last 50 years or so they have suffered many defeats and lost much face militaryily, which is why the arab street so strongly supports hezbollah, they are the underdog fighting the huge israely juggernaught. I believe i was suggesting that if israel was to engage syria in ground fighting and complete a set of limited objective favourable to their interests they could conduct a withdrawl coinciding with a stablising force from some arab/muslim nations. This could then be portrayed as a vital victory for arab forces over israel. Would this or a comparable idea help the attiutde of the arab street towards israel?
 

atilla

New Member
then can we say arab dıctators ıs usıng ısrael to keep theır crowns safe;)

and maybe ısrael ıs also usıng arab dıctators to keep theır huge army expendıtures and system safe?? maybe from thıs we can conculede whıth US that dıctators of oıl rıch arab states ıs realy helpful to fınısh old USA equıpment ??? who ıs goıng to ask them where are u spendıng the oıl money u earn ????? ıf street would be reflectıng ın realıty then the outcomes could be dıfferent also ı thınk ıt ıs not about arab street...to be feeded whıth dırty vıctory or defeat.....
 
enigmaticuk said:
The discusion of hypothetical ideas amoungst intelectuals is a fantastic way to learn and develop independent ideas. Would i seriously want Israel to invade syria, no i just wanted to explore the consequences and possible solutions if they did or were forced to. The point that i believe im trying to get to is complicated. The warfare in the mid-east stirs the passions of arabs immensly, and it appears that in the last 50 years or so they have suffered many defeats and lost much face militaryily, which is why the arab street so strongly supports hezbollah, they are the underdog fighting the huge israely juggernaught. I believe i was suggesting that if israel was to engage syria in ground fighting and complete a set of limited objective favourable to their interests they could conduct a withdrawl coinciding with a stablising force from some arab/muslim nations. This could then be portrayed as a vital victory for arab forces over israel. Would this or a comparable idea help the attiutde of the arab street towards israel?
my point was the US/Iraq dont have enought troops to quell the violence in baghdad right now. there is no way they can spare any ground troops for another conflict. btw the american public would never allow US troops to be used as stabilizing force in someone else's conflict.
 
agreed but others countries help us out after we were attacked on 9/11. US troops will not be involve on the ground in syria due to reasons i have given before unless syria takes an agressive posture towards the US.
 
Last edited:

contedicavour

New Member
radiosilence said:
hightly doubt that israel can finish off the syrian army and occupy syria in less than a week. syria is larger than lebanon. israel has been at it for 25 days with hezbollah and they are still not in control of the situation on the ground in lebanon. granted there is no denying who the winner of the conflict will be.
Syria's population is relatively concentrated in Damascus and in the area that goes north-north-east around Lebanon towards the Mediterranean ports of Latakia and Tartus. Once the defences around Damascus are knocked out, the Syrians would retreat north and east (leaving the border with Iraq by fear of being attacked on both fronts). Honestly a week would be enough to obtain the surrender of the Syrian armed forces.

However it would be one of the most tragic mistakes one could make... guerrilla warfare would just replace traditional warfare, and anti-Western hostility would reach the sky :(
 

Stryker001

Banned Member
The upgrade of IDF operations in the southern AO is proof of the lack of will ability and or collusion by the LAF with Hizbollah. A representative of the Lebanese government admitted to Government support of Hizbollah during an interview with Tony Jones of the Australian ABC network.

Moving 15,000 LAF personnel into the AO so the IDF can withdraw from a military perspective is a failed doctrine. If the Lebanese Government truly cared for its citizens they would condemn Hizbollah and take measure to prevent further attacks on Israel.

The fact that the majority of countries including the French and Americans can agree on a strategy, yet the Lebanese Government will not accept the proposal. The reason for this lack of will to protect their citizens is due to Syria possibly believing due to the fact of their support for Hizbollah that if a multi-national stabilization force is deployed the IDF will be free to counter Syria. More importantly if the multi-national stabilization force attempts to disarm Hizbollah and supplies are coming from Syria the IDF may have to conduct operations to protect the multi-national stabilization force personnel.

The belief by the Lebanese Government that if they hold out long enough the IDF will be forced to cease operations. Any LAF involvement in the southern AO should come under the command of the multi-national stabilization force and the LAF deployment should be embedded among the international elements.

To allow the LAF to be deployed in the southern AO and for the IDF to withdraw would allow Hizbollah to resupply and conduct refortification in the AO. I think the expansion of IDF operations is a wise move if LAF are to be deployed then a larger buffer zone is required.

This conflict could stop in days and Lebanon could be free country without interference from Hizbollah and states which sponsor terrorism. As Dr Rice stated once the proposal was on the table we would see who wants peace and who doesn’t, once again Dr Rice was right. As it appears the Lebanese Government is not ready to stand up as an independent democracy, IDF operation will continue.

Sorry if this may appear political, however in the Middle East often politics and war are the same thing.
 

merocaine

New Member
The warfare in the mid-east stirs the passions of arabs immensly
looks like it stirs the brains of some posters too:p:

if israel was to engage syria in ground fighting and complete a set of limited objective favourable to their interests they could conduct a withdrawl coinciding with a stablising force from some arab/muslim nations. This could then be portrayed as a vital victory for arab forces over israel. Would this or a comparable idea help the attiutde of the arab street towards israel?
1 Day Ago 07:48 PM
more lightly the arabs would tell israel to fuck off and sort your own shit out, while at the same time pumping guns and money to the syirian resistance, and laughing all the way to the bazzar.

Kind of like Iraq where you have all those arab countries queing up to send their troops to die in bagdad for the sake of arab pride..... o wait i just dreamt that.
 

Zaphael

New Member
In a way, the Israelis have no experience planning an offensive campaign on a strategic level. That is, to invade a country, and decide what to do with it. The Israelis may have begun campaigns with pre-emptive strikes, but it still does not have the capability to propel itself into another country, cause a "regime" change, and temporarily govern that land.

Also, the Israelis armed forces have a large bulk of reservist personnel. Men and women who are part of their economy, and hold down every day jobs. To invade Syria and force a decapitulation of the Syrian government, may require more of these reserves to be mobilised of an indeterminable period of time required for the campaign and to stabilise the region. It would hurt Israel's economy without a doubt.

It seems that Israel has allowed itself to be cornered now, and hopes that an international peace keeping force can be formed in order to save itself from a political "defeat." It has invaded Lebanon, tried to destroy and expel Hezbollah, and failed. Rockets still continue to land in Israel, while its Army, Air Force, and Navy have been humbled time and time again. Hezbollah is not going to be destroyed until Iran and Syria, allies of convenience withdraws their support for it. Israel needs a quick exit that would save them from a political "defeat." Even if Israel was to pull out now, they would still have to account for all the civilian lives, and infrastructure destroyed in the war. But I have a feeling, there is another twist to this plot that has yet to unfold...
 

contedicavour

New Member
Zaphael said:
In a way, the Israelis have no experience planning an offensive campaign on a strategic level. That is, to invade a country, and decide what to do with it. The Israelis may have begun campaigns with pre-emptive strikes, but it still does not have the capability to propel itself into another country, cause a "regime" change, and temporarily govern that land.

Also, the Israelis armed forces have a large bulk of reservist personnel. Men and women who are part of their economy, and hold down every day jobs. To invade Syria and force a decapitulation of the Syrian government, may require more of these reserves to be mobilised of an indeterminable period of time required for the campaign and to stabilise the region. It would hurt Israel's economy without a doubt.

It seems that Israel has allowed itself to be cornered now, and hopes that an international peace keeping force can be formed in order to save itself from a political "defeat." It has invaded Lebanon, tried to destroy and expel Hezbollah, and failed. Rockets still continue to land in Israel, while its Army, Air Force, and Navy have been humbled time and time again. Hezbollah is not going to be destroyed until Iran and Syria, allies of convenience withdraws their support for it. Israel needs a quick exit that would save them from a political "defeat." Even if Israel was to pull out now, they would still have to account for all the civilian lives, and infrastructure destroyed in the war. But I have a feeling, there is another twist to this plot that has yet to unfold...
Vs your 1st paragraph, one could argue that after occupying the Palestinian "Occupied Territories" for 39 years Israel should know how to handle occupied land in Lebanon. Since I happen to agree with you, the fact that Israel hasn't learned much from its own occupied territories after such a long time doesn't speak highly of the political leadership of its country :(

Israel must either occupy with land forces a signficant swathe of Lebanon, or find a way to build the Lebanese Army (may be with help from Egypt and other moderate Arab states)

cheers
 
Top