Turkish Navy news and updates.
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
At present, it's an open question if the handful of Harrier-capable CVL will be able to operate the F-35B (STOVL version) Lightning II. Also, AFAIK Turkey isn't currently expected to order the F-35B, instead, like most participants in the JSF, Turkey is expected to order the F-35A CTOL-variant. While I expect Turkey could spend the additional money for the more expensive -B variant, I have to ask, why?
The role of an aircraft carrier has been to allow flight operations in areas where it wasn't feasible to conduct land-based flight operations. Unless Turkey becomes involved in operations requiring it to send task forces away from the Eastern Med or Black Sea areas, I don't see an aircraft carrier being worthwhile. After all, if one were added to the fleet, in order for it to operate away from Turkey (the whole point behind getting one) the surface and undersea vessels would need to be increased enough to escort the carrier in addition to their other duties.
-Cheers
Milgem
Seems the MILGEM project is a ground breaking long term venture whos initial inefficiencies and cost structures will move quickley down the learning curve. This will allow for more timely production scheadules while making the upgrading of any inadiquacies of previous vessles rapidly simple. The long-term dividends are significant.
Quite frankly I find some of these military accessments of Turkey vs. Greece unfounded and very detrimental however consistent with current DOD error in foreign military evaluation and determinations hence the situation in Iraq. To the uninformed reader of such posts one would think Greece is militarily far beyond Turkey and capable of a swift and easy occupation of the western Turkey. This is almost humorous.
Please take into account even the most recent eye to eye face offs of these nations naval, special forces, political and intelligence tactics and strategies and their actual success of execution in recent real life conflicts as old as Cyprus, as recent as the Kardak iltel crisis (1995, declared a major failure by Greek Pres. Simitis himself) and most recently the search and rescue mission of fallen F16 pilots over the Aegean in May of 2006. All were direct conflicts that did and could have brought the two nations to the brink of war. In all instances the results were inline with the history of conflicts between these nations ending with the highest level of Turkish military success unfortunately at the grave expense of our Greek friends. Please take into mind that these events occurred while Turkey is fighting a antiterror war with the PKK within its own borders. Turkey is one of the few nations who army, special forces and air forces have been in real life combat situations on a regular basis..other than the occational confrontation with some of our Greek neighbors special forces units in Kosovo assisting with the Serbs and in N.Iraq working with PKK elements in the no-fly zone before the U.S. invasion. I dont have to tell you how that ended....
A touch of reality. If the Turkish Republic had the luxury of Greece's ability to only focus one nation as a military threat full Turkish occupation of Greece has been assessed by CIA data as in 10-15 days. Unfortunately Turkey bordering Russia, Iran, Iraq and Syria especially with the current state of the region as a result of unexplainable decision making by U.S. Military accumen does not have this luxury. Other than meaningless arial dogfights over the Aegean much due to the airspace issues leaves Greece as a tertiary threat at best. A Greek attack on Turkey or its escalation of any conflict to compromise Turkish borders or sovereignty will solve many ioutstanding issues that have irritated Turkey in the Med. for sometime.
"Peace at home, Peace abroad"....M.Kemal
Seems the MILGEM project is a ground breaking long term venture whos initial inefficiencies and cost structures will move quickley down the learning curve. This will allow for more timely production scheadules while making the upgrading of any inadiquacies of previous vessles rapidly simple. The long-term dividends are significant.
Quite frankly I find some of these military accessments of Turkey vs. Greece unfounded and very detrimental however consistent with current DOD error in foreign military evaluation and determinations hence the situation in Iraq. To the uninformed reader of such posts one would think Greece is militarily far beyond Turkey and capable of a swift and easy occupation of the western Turkey. This is almost humorous.
Please take into account even the most recent eye to eye face offs of these nations naval, special forces, political and intelligence tactics and strategies and their actual success of execution in recent real life conflicts as old as Cyprus, as recent as the Kardak iltel crisis (1995, declared a major failure by Greek Pres. Simitis himself) and most recently the search and rescue mission of fallen F16 pilots over the Aegean in May of 2006. All were direct conflicts that did and could have brought the two nations to the brink of war. In all instances the results were inline with the history of conflicts between these nations ending with the highest level of Turkish military success unfortunately at the grave expense of our Greek friends. Please take into mind that these events occurred while Turkey is fighting a antiterror war with the PKK within its own borders. Turkey is one of the few nations who army, special forces and air forces have been in real life combat situations on a regular basis..other than the occational confrontation with some of our Greek neighbors special forces units in Kosovo assisting with the Serbs and in N.Iraq working with PKK elements in the no-fly zone before the U.S. invasion. I dont have to tell you how that ended....
A touch of reality. If the Turkish Republic had the luxury of Greece's ability to only focus one nation as a military threat full Turkish occupation of Greece has been assessed by CIA data as in 10-15 days. Unfortunately Turkey bordering Russia, Iran, Iraq and Syria especially with the current state of the region as a result of unexplainable decision making by U.S. Military accumen does not have this luxury. Other than meaningless arial dogfights over the Aegean much due to the airspace issues leaves Greece as a tertiary threat at best. A Greek attack on Turkey or its escalation of any conflict to compromise Turkish borders or sovereignty will solve many ioutstanding issues that have irritated Turkey in the Med. for sometime.
"Peace at home, Peace abroad"....M.Kemal
What "accumen" is that? You mean the Kurds? The Kurds are far less of a problem for Turkey now that they have a stable Northern Iraq to live in. You should have seen life in eastern Turkey back in the '70s and early '80s if you think American acumen has caused you problems now. I forget the number of times I had rifles and Tommy guns stuck in my face during my times in Martial law Turkey.
America did not cause Iran. Iran caused Iran, along with a lot of help from the Soviets, I mean our friends the Russians.
Wait till Iran goes nuclear and you'll be thankful for those American high security bunkers at Incirlik.Back to naval. You may think Greece is a tertiary threat but the Turkish military doesn't. I can remember the entire order of battle facing west in my time there. Its true the navy has a huge coastline to protect but remember that Turkey lives and dies on the Straits, Aegean and Marmara sea's. Your most important ports and industries are there, within striking distance of the Greek air force and navy.http://www.cerrahogullari.com.tr/ports.htm#aegean
The Greeks also have the geographical advantage in the Aegean. In order to win the Turkish Navy has to win both ends of the sea, including having to deal with Crete.
Recently, and in addition to becoming a vastly important energy waterway, large reserves of oil have been found in the Aegean seabed. In contested waters. Which is a big reason the Greeks have embarked on a huge military modernization spending spree.
So trust me. The Aegean is very much on the mind of your Generals. And American acumen has nothing to do with it.
Izzy1, is that particular statement so hard to believe? Rogue nations like the Milosevic regime of Serbia during its quick attempts of genocide in Bosnia and Kosovo allowed for any and all assistance from legitimate or illegitimate elements. A nation that will hate Turks forever will want some real combat exposure for some of their elite forces. Greece after all jumped at the opportunity to harbor PKK leader A. Ocalan? A nation that openly performed in joint amphibious landing exercises with Syrian forces on Syrian beaches, quiet interesting that Ocalan was in Damascus at the time. The only evidence I can provide is hearsay of members of Turkish units that I have spoken with as well as read in limited reports in Turkish publications. Just as Hizbullah in Lebanon are actually active members of the Iranian Republican Guard. Im constantly surprised that the American mind finds actions and events like this so extraordinary and unbelievable. But I do understand, the wonderful luxury of safety in living in a brand new nation that lies in a completely peaceful region with two massive oceans on either side makes the world that other try to survive in day in day out almost a fictional CNN excerpt.
To Rich:
With all due respect Sir, I have the utmost respect for the United States of America, its Armed Forces and it courageous soldiers. When abroad I refuse to allow anyone to talk trash about the Stars and Stripes. But this administration that I have voted for TWICE has made and continues to make major errors in decisions in the region. The "Acumen" (I apologize for the typo "accumen") im referring to is the turmoil of the current region and specifically the invasion of Iraq and the instability it has caused while almost completely resurrecting the PKK Terrorist movement whose members are constantly attacking and bombing civilians, police stations, and military outpost in Turkey. Now they are nicely equipped with unintentionally supplied U.S. night vision, weapons and other munitions likely indented for Peshmerge, Kurdish Proper security forces and or Iraqi forces. All of Turkey is on its feet ready to move into Iraq but the government must respect its ally. This is a war of terrorism that Turkey has fought for 30yrs, at the cost of 30K lives highlighted in Gulf 1 which Turkey was effectively on the verge of putting a final end to during the 10yr No-Fly Zone with many incursions into Iraq up to 12 and 15 miles establishing a buffer zone without hurting a single Kurdish civilian or putting out a single Kurdish light bulb. Now when the Turkish military attempts to protect its people from terror attacks its not the same kind of terrorism as those of Al-Quaida or threat to American lives. Or its thought that Turkey wants to kill all Kurds or is animately against a Kurdish state. A major Turkish trading partner is eliminated (billions in gdp); a major oil pipeline running through Turkey (more billions in gdp), a rise in PKK terror with the U.S. invasion of Iraq and now the House is about to accept Accusations of Armenian Genocide? This is the acumen I referring to. How can a world power side with those that terrorize its ally in any campaign? The U.S. has terrorists in Iraq and so does its ally Turkey, both shouldve have gone into Iraq and cleaned house! No however, one must wait while the other sides with guess whom? The Kurds, very difficult for Turkey to accept much less present it to its public to push for 85k U.S. Troops for a requested northern front. Regardless Turkeys Erdogan administration still tried to circumvent the public vote and did so for the most part, only failing by a very thin margin. Turkey had been going in and out of Iraq and never touched the wrong Kurd. Israel has one soldier kidnapped in routine border skirmishes and levels Lebanon? Northern Iraq would have still been stable and the U.S. would have had a more legitimate coalition than the massive British military contribution. Turkish troops wouldve have been the source of a far more powerful and positive opinion sentiment in having a major Muslim member in the coalition...bad decisions. Yeah some of our generals are thinking about Greece who loves this scenario.
During your stint in Turkey in the 70s-80s in the period of military marital law don worry, you werent the only one who had machine gun barrels pointed in your face, so did my older cousins, and uncles and our friends even my father and I dressed like westerners while walking the streets.so it wasnt anything special, this was an honor for them and us. My uncles in front of me commended these soldiers for their efforts in pointing that weapon in his face, an honor that the military which each of my cousins and uncles served in was securing its nation from rotten forces in the country whose objectives it was to topple the nation with the threat of communist ideology and now Islamic fundamentalism. Yes, a threat that is difficult to believe and comprehend as an American with nice warm and cozy borders, no real threats on those borders much less within them. Given all of this immediate pressure of constant threat that Turkey exists under every weapons deal we have with the U.S. has a Greek parity who has the option to receive a scaled quantity without even asking for it because Turkey is such a threat to Greece? Because Turkey is soooooo interested in attacking Greece, when’s the last time Turkey attack Greece unprovoked or literally force to? So Greece gets to approach being a threat to Turkey because of this interesting parity agreement not to mention the all-powerful Greek American lobby on the Hill and here we are in a flawed and useless comparison. Those Aegean Sea borders are defined and these Greeks continue to weasel their way into the issue just as they do with airspace issues and as they do to everything related to Turkey or the world for that matter taking, taking never giving, whets their major export, sun and fun? Funneling funds from the EU off cooked balance sheets. Oh thats right they are Cradle of Civilization and gave the world Democracy,,funny how they decided against it for so long. Sometimes I wish they would make a dumb move to settle things once and for all but then 20yrs later there would a ridiculous thread like this one comparing Turkey to Greece its almost insulting that we have to deal with this and truly annoying. Where were the great Greek forces in Cyprus? If it weren’t for the U.S. and world embargoes that Cyprus issue would not be an issue. Look N. Cyprus is all Turkish and in total isolation? While the South never approaches negotiations properly makes it into the EU where it can nice serve as the EU veto goat while Greece and the rest of Europe proclaims to support Turkish entry other thank the Germans who fear more Turks and the well the French that quite frankly are,,,,well.... French annoying every being on earth...
The true and proven fact Captain is that Turkey is a strong U.S. ally an ally that has fought side by side, shoulder to shoulder with American soldiers spilling blood in the same trenches, sharing last words without thinking twice. Turkey will always be an ally but does have the hopes that its ally maintains some honor for this valued relationship. I am encouraged by the recent U.S. head turning and "peaking with one eye" at recent Turkish cross border operations in N.Iraq going after PKK terrorists. This is critical, I will be meeting with major congressmen and their foreign service advisors soon on the Armenian Allegations resolutions that if passed could have incredible repercussions in heavily straining these relations. I shutter to consider such an outcome of ridiculous assertions that will have NO benefit to the American people and United State but a devastating negative impact if passed. We are partners in a very ambiguous world where nothing is what is seems. Turks come from a culture that values a friendship with undying loyalty which Im sure you have experienced to some degree in your tenure in Turkey. Turks are very sensitive in their relationships, maybe too much to easily brush off even the slightest of dings in such a friendship. We must work together, forges stronger ties because terror is real, its hidden and its far reaching enough to directly corrupt governments and alliances. We cannot let this happen full communication, total dialog and proper alliances with mutual respect and cooperation’s are vital. Thank you.
To Rich:
With all due respect Sir, I have the utmost respect for the United States of America, its Armed Forces and it courageous soldiers. When abroad I refuse to allow anyone to talk trash about the Stars and Stripes. But this administration that I have voted for TWICE has made and continues to make major errors in decisions in the region. The "Acumen" (I apologize for the typo "accumen") im referring to is the turmoil of the current region and specifically the invasion of Iraq and the instability it has caused while almost completely resurrecting the PKK Terrorist movement whose members are constantly attacking and bombing civilians, police stations, and military outpost in Turkey. Now they are nicely equipped with unintentionally supplied U.S. night vision, weapons and other munitions likely indented for Peshmerge, Kurdish Proper security forces and or Iraqi forces. All of Turkey is on its feet ready to move into Iraq but the government must respect its ally. This is a war of terrorism that Turkey has fought for 30yrs, at the cost of 30K lives highlighted in Gulf 1 which Turkey was effectively on the verge of putting a final end to during the 10yr No-Fly Zone with many incursions into Iraq up to 12 and 15 miles establishing a buffer zone without hurting a single Kurdish civilian or putting out a single Kurdish light bulb. Now when the Turkish military attempts to protect its people from terror attacks its not the same kind of terrorism as those of Al-Quaida or threat to American lives. Or its thought that Turkey wants to kill all Kurds or is animately against a Kurdish state. A major Turkish trading partner is eliminated (billions in gdp); a major oil pipeline running through Turkey (more billions in gdp), a rise in PKK terror with the U.S. invasion of Iraq and now the House is about to accept Accusations of Armenian Genocide? This is the acumen I referring to. How can a world power side with those that terrorize its ally in any campaign? The U.S. has terrorists in Iraq and so does its ally Turkey, both shouldve have gone into Iraq and cleaned house! No however, one must wait while the other sides with guess whom? The Kurds, very difficult for Turkey to accept much less present it to its public to push for 85k U.S. Troops for a requested northern front. Regardless Turkeys Erdogan administration still tried to circumvent the public vote and did so for the most part, only failing by a very thin margin. Turkey had been going in and out of Iraq and never touched the wrong Kurd. Israel has one soldier kidnapped in routine border skirmishes and levels Lebanon? Northern Iraq would have still been stable and the U.S. would have had a more legitimate coalition than the massive British military contribution. Turkish troops wouldve have been the source of a far more powerful and positive opinion sentiment in having a major Muslim member in the coalition...bad decisions. Yeah some of our generals are thinking about Greece who loves this scenario.
During your stint in Turkey in the 70s-80s in the period of military marital law don worry, you werent the only one who had machine gun barrels pointed in your face, so did my older cousins, and uncles and our friends even my father and I dressed like westerners while walking the streets.so it wasnt anything special, this was an honor for them and us. My uncles in front of me commended these soldiers for their efforts in pointing that weapon in his face, an honor that the military which each of my cousins and uncles served in was securing its nation from rotten forces in the country whose objectives it was to topple the nation with the threat of communist ideology and now Islamic fundamentalism. Yes, a threat that is difficult to believe and comprehend as an American with nice warm and cozy borders, no real threats on those borders much less within them. Given all of this immediate pressure of constant threat that Turkey exists under every weapons deal we have with the U.S. has a Greek parity who has the option to receive a scaled quantity without even asking for it because Turkey is such a threat to Greece? Because Turkey is soooooo interested in attacking Greece, when’s the last time Turkey attack Greece unprovoked or literally force to? So Greece gets to approach being a threat to Turkey because of this interesting parity agreement not to mention the all-powerful Greek American lobby on the Hill and here we are in a flawed and useless comparison. Those Aegean Sea borders are defined and these Greeks continue to weasel their way into the issue just as they do with airspace issues and as they do to everything related to Turkey or the world for that matter taking, taking never giving, whets their major export, sun and fun? Funneling funds from the EU off cooked balance sheets. Oh thats right they are Cradle of Civilization and gave the world Democracy,,funny how they decided against it for so long. Sometimes I wish they would make a dumb move to settle things once and for all but then 20yrs later there would a ridiculous thread like this one comparing Turkey to Greece its almost insulting that we have to deal with this and truly annoying. Where were the great Greek forces in Cyprus? If it weren’t for the U.S. and world embargoes that Cyprus issue would not be an issue. Look N. Cyprus is all Turkish and in total isolation? While the South never approaches negotiations properly makes it into the EU where it can nice serve as the EU veto goat while Greece and the rest of Europe proclaims to support Turkish entry other thank the Germans who fear more Turks and the well the French that quite frankly are,,,,well.... French annoying every being on earth...
The true and proven fact Captain is that Turkey is a strong U.S. ally an ally that has fought side by side, shoulder to shoulder with American soldiers spilling blood in the same trenches, sharing last words without thinking twice. Turkey will always be an ally but does have the hopes that its ally maintains some honor for this valued relationship. I am encouraged by the recent U.S. head turning and "peaking with one eye" at recent Turkish cross border operations in N.Iraq going after PKK terrorists. This is critical, I will be meeting with major congressmen and their foreign service advisors soon on the Armenian Allegations resolutions that if passed could have incredible repercussions in heavily straining these relations. I shutter to consider such an outcome of ridiculous assertions that will have NO benefit to the American people and United State but a devastating negative impact if passed. We are partners in a very ambiguous world where nothing is what is seems. Turks come from a culture that values a friendship with undying loyalty which Im sure you have experienced to some degree in your tenure in Turkey. Turks are very sensitive in their relationships, maybe too much to easily brush off even the slightest of dings in such a friendship. We must work together, forges stronger ties because terror is real, its hidden and its far reaching enough to directly corrupt governments and alliances. We cannot let this happen full communication, total dialog and proper alliances with mutual respect and cooperation’s are vital. Thank you.
Yeah, look, CCC before I decide I want to spend 3 mins of my day reading your post regarding Turkey I first want to know if you are Turkish, or have ever been stationed there?
I have a rule. I never read long-winded posts of anyone with less then 50 posts here unless they can provide some expertise in the area they are argueing. If you think eastern Turkey is worse today then it was during the days of rage, back when I was there, you are wrong.
I have a rule. I never read long-winded posts of anyone with less then 50 posts here unless they can provide some expertise in the area they are argueing. If you think eastern Turkey is worse today then it was during the days of rage, back when I was there, you are wrong.
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So, the Turkish navy will probably get two OSPREY class minehunters and two OLIVER HAZARD PERRY class frigates more...
Are the OHP frigates going to be put into service or used as a source for spare parts? And if they are put into service, will the Knox class be retired?
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Turkish Navy currently has 2 FF-1052 Tepe class frigates out of 8 total active (plus 4 for spare parts). The remaining two will be retired soon.
Turkish Navy will most probably refuse the transfer of 2 Osprey's, since 6 new A class (MHV-054) and 6 transferred + modernized Circe class minehunters is enough for the operational requirement. There was some rumors about a possible follow-on order for 6 more A class minehunters, but take that with a grain of salt, since it is not confirmed information.
The two FFG-7's will be active ships, not spare parts. As known Turkish Navy was interested in the two Australian FFG-7's slated for retirement (around 2000 - 2002?) but it couldn't happen. The plan was always to get a total of 10 FFG-7's.
It is expected that these two ships wil be converted to long-hull version, undergo GENESIS modernization, and maybe some additional implementations + improvements.
Turkish Navy will most probably refuse the transfer of 2 Osprey's, since 6 new A class (MHV-054) and 6 transferred + modernized Circe class minehunters is enough for the operational requirement. There was some rumors about a possible follow-on order for 6 more A class minehunters, but take that with a grain of salt, since it is not confirmed information.
The two FFG-7's will be active ships, not spare parts. As known Turkish Navy was interested in the two Australian FFG-7's slated for retirement (around 2000 - 2002?) but it couldn't happen. The plan was always to get a total of 10 FFG-7's.
It is expected that these two ships wil be converted to long-hull version, undergo GENESIS modernization, and maybe some additional implementations + improvements.
contedicavour
New Member
So if I understand it correctly the remaining Know will be deleted ?
Is Turkey interested in OHPs even if they no longer carry the Mk13 launcher for SM1/Harpoon ?
If Turkey doesn't take the Ospreys I'd expect Egypt to do it.
cheers
The OHP's in storage and for sale from the US still have the Mk-13 launcher. Besides it looks like they just removed the arm and bolted over the openings in the launcher, all the equipment should still be their (too expensive and pointless to remove) so a minor refit will restore the launcher.
contedicavour
New Member
Ah ok thanks that's clear.
Are there still a few OHPs in storage in the US with Mk13s ? I guess at least the 2 initially planned for Portugal (unless that's where the 2 going to Turkey come from).
cheers
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Egypt was transferred two Osprey-class MHC, the former USS Cardinal and USS Raven, in January of this year. The USS Heron and USS Pelican Osprey-class MHC were transfered to Greece in March of this year. Does anyone know which Osprey's were under consideration for Turkey? The same bill allowing the sale of surplus vessels mentioned Spruance-class DDG for Turkey, but I haven't seen reference to Osprey-class MHC.
-Cheers
Turkey is not interested in Ospreys. I remember we have refused the offer previously and probably will do again. We have recently bought 6 A-class mine hunters from Germany built by Abeking&Rasmussen and Lürssen Werft so the fleet is in quite good condition.
contedicavour yes these are the ships offered to Portuguese before. We do need them so probably they will be transferred and go under GENESIS mod like the rest of the Turkish Perrys.
contedicavour yes these are the ships offered to Portuguese before. We do need them so probably they will be transferred and go under GENESIS mod like the rest of the Turkish Perrys.
Turkish Navy is going to procure Mk41 Tactical VLS launching systems for:
2 x Barbaros (Track IIA) Class (modernization kits)
2 x Salihreis (Track IIB) Class (new installation)
4 x Gabya (FFG-7) Class (new installation)
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Turkey_08-40.pdf
2 x Barbaros (Track IIA) Class (modernization kits)
2 x Salihreis (Track IIB) Class (new installation)
4 x Gabya (FFG-7) Class (new installation)
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Turkey_08-40.pdf
According to confirmed insider sources as well as an interview article with ASELSAN, Turkish Navy has been working on a multimission frigate project code named "TF-100".
TF-100 is reported to be basically a lengthened and Mk-41 + ESSM installed version of MilGem.
Also reported is the possible procurement numbers of MilGem and TF-100: 1+1+6 for MilGem and 4 TF-100.
TF-2020 AAW frigate project will follow up TF-100.
TF-100 is reported to be basically a lengthened and Mk-41 + ESSM installed version of MilGem.
Also reported is the possible procurement numbers of MilGem and TF-100: 1+1+6 for MilGem and 4 TF-100.
TF-2020 AAW frigate project will follow up TF-100.
contedicavour
New Member
Wow this is news - we're talking ESSM here though, right ? No SM2 procurement to preserve area defence AAW after the inevitable (sooner or later) discarding of the SM1 ?
cheers