Supersonic AShM vs Subsonic AShm

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
Coming back to subsonic vs supersonic Ashm, could some one tell me whats the true range of Exocet and Harpoon(ship lanched and air launched) Ashm at sea level. The figures I got was 50 km and 90 -100 km respectively.
Yes it depends of the version..
For the exocet:
-MM-38 has a range of 38 (!) km
-AM-39/SM-39 have a range at sea level of ~50 km, but when released at high altitude and high speed, the range can be extend to 70 km
-MM-40 block 1/2 have a range of 40 nm (~72 km)
-MM-40 block 3, being propulsed by a turbojet, has a range of 180 km (approx. 100 nm)

For the Harpoon, I don't know the difference between the different versions, but the most common ship-launched have a range of about 70 nm. Propulsed by a turbojet too.
 

contedicavour

New Member
DoC_FouALieR said:
One question, will the Italian Fremm's be fitted with the same ultra low frequency active/passive towed array (the SLASM sonar) that we in France, already use on the De Grasse and Tourville ASW DD and will be fitted in our Fremm's. ?
Yes, Thales CAPTAS active/passive towed array, on 4 FREMMs ASW variants.

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
DoC_FouALieR said:
Yes it depends of the version..
For the exocet:
-MM-38 has a range of 38 (!) km
-AM-39/SM-39 have a range at sea level of ~50 km, but when released at high altitude and high speed, the range can be extend to 70 km
-MM-40 block 1/2 have a range of 40 nm (~72 km)
-MM-40 block 3, being propulsed by a turbojet, has a range of 180 km (approx. 100 nm)

For the Harpoon, I don't know the difference between the different versions, but the most common ship-launched have a range of about 70 nm. Propulsed by a turbojet too.
Yes Harpoon's range is 130km in SSM version.
I didn't know that MM40 Block III had the same range as Teseo Mk2 ! Do you know if it will be retrofitted on existing ships ? So far only the 2 Forbin and the FREMM are planned to carry them.

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
Mangusta CBT said:
Teseo Mk3 is similar at a big Mk2 or look like a NSM ?
It's an extended range version of Mk2 with a booster. If we don't take SCALP Naval (we already have Storm Shadow, the air-launched version of SCALP, for our Tornados), then Mk3 may become more than an extended version of Mk2, though nothing has been decided so far.

cheers
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
Mangusta CBT said:
Rumors say Scalp Naval will have a range of 1000 km+, than i hope our GP FREMM will have this missile :D :p:
there really is no point in having a missile like that, lol. How are you even going to detect something that far out? and once you detect it, how are you going to guide your missile?
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
tphuang said:
there really is no point in having a missile like that, lol. How are you even going to detect something that far out? and once you detect it, how are you going to guide your missile?
GPS or Gallileo would be a good guidance start. Recon assets exist beyond whatever is carried on a particular vessel...

Naval SCALP sounds like it will operate very much like Tomahawk, just with a slightly inferior range to Tomahawk...
 

contedicavour

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
GPS or Gallileo would be a good guidance start. Recon assets exist beyond whatever is carried on a particular vessel...

Naval SCALP sounds like it will operate very much like Tomahawk, just with a slightly inferior range to Tomahawk...
Fully agree. Besides most DDGs and FFGs have satellite links and with all the European satellites now on orbit, chances are one would be at the right place to transmit pictures of the target and help with guidance.
SCALP Naval should be used mostly against fixed land targets (air bases, HQ bunkers, etc), so no need to continuously update guidance.
I am a bit sceptical though of the 1,000km range. Storm Shadow has a range of 500km approx. Boosters should help increase range, but 1,000 would be quite an increase...

cheers
 

Mangusta CBT

New Member
On the MBDA web site (now down) :( there is a photo of a prototipe of Scalp Naval, the only equal thing whit Storm Shadow is the name :D :D
 

contedicavour

New Member
Mangusta CBT said:
On the MBDA web site (now down) :( there is a photo of a prototipe of Scalp Naval, the only equal thing whit Storm Shadow is the name :D :D
Use the "cache" function ;) - as you'll read, Storm Shadow and SCALP are almost the same thing. This is from the mdba page :

The MBDA solution
Selected by 5 countries, STORM SHADOW / SCALP is a long range, conventionally armed, cruise missile, optimised for use in pre-planned attacks against heavily defended, hardened and high value fixed targets whose positions are accurately known before the mission.
Operating by day and night and in adverse weather, STORM SHADOW / SCALP offers considerable operational capability and provides a large launch window with minimal Fire and Forget workload.

STORM SHADOW / SCALP is a stealth missile and is fully autonomous after firing.

After launch, STORM SHADOW / SCALP changes from its firing altitude to very low cruising altitude. Its inertial navigation is continuously updated through information supplied by its navigation system following the ground by digital terrain profile matching and by GPS (Global Positioning System). This provides the missile with excellent navigational precision and resistance to countermeasures. The passive infrared imagery homing head is activated during the final target approach phase. Automatic target recognition algorithms then compare the actual scene with the memorised scene, identify the designated target and select the target impact point in order to hit the target with very high precision.

The only difference betweenSTORM SHADOW and SCALP is in peripherals around the missile itself, which are mainly required for missile adaptation subassemblies to French or British aircraft; mission preparation systems, etc.


MAIN FEATURES and ADVANTAGES

High survivability and effectiveness
Storm Shadow/Scalp EG is a next generation, stealthy, cruise missile, with avionics tailored to meet the most demanding operational requirements:
Long stand-off range
minimising aircraft and crew vulnerability and maximising radius of action.
High missile survivability
High survivability due to very low altitude predictive terrain following. Extended range and sophisticated mission planning allow avoidance of enemy ground-to-air defence systems.
Excellent navigation accuracy
provided by tight integration of INS, GPS and terrain reference navigation system.
Pinpoint terminal accuracy
a high resolution IIR seeker and automatic target recognition (ATR).
Terminal effectiveness
provided by a high speed final dive and a tandem lethal package including a precursor charge and a large kinetic energy penetrator bomb.
High flexibility of operation
Large launch window and total aircraft tactical freedom post launch.
Large tolerance
around the nominal launch point (large launch basket) provided by the mixed navigation system.
Fire-and-forget
enabling operation of the missile at very long ranges from the target.
Minimal crew workload
enabling single seat aircraft pilots to operate the weapon system.

Status of programme

STORM SHADOW entered service with the Royal Air Force in 2003 and saw operational service in the Gulf during action in Iraq. STORM SHADOW / SCALP will be operated from Tornado, Rafale, Mirage 2000, Mirage 2000-5 Mk II, Eurofighter Typhoonand in the future, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

New MBDA advanced studies are underway to develop a sea-launched version of the SCALP missile. Dedicated to equip the future frigates and “Barracuda-class” sub-marines of the French Navy, the “SCALP NAVAL” will fulfil other European requirements for deep land attack from the sea.
 

Mangusta CBT

New Member
Storm Shadow and Scalp EG are the same missile, but Scalp EG and Scalp Naval are no the same missile, on the MBDA web site there is a photo of Scalp Naval, it's very similar at Tomahawk. Unfortunately MBDA web site is down.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Mangusta CBT said:
Storm Shadow and Scalp EG are the same missile, but Scalp EG and Scalp Naval are no the same missile, on the MBDA web site there is a photo of Scalp Naval, it's very similar at Tomahawk. Unfortunately MBDA web site is down.
Other sources such as articles on defense-aerospace.com state :

"commonality involving many of the subsystems, particularly guidance, avionics, the warhead and mission planning"

Beyond boosters for extended range, I don't see what could be different ? Missiles may look different because the naval version has to be launched from a VLS while the air launched version isn't.

Try also this link, EADS site :

http://www.eads.com/web/lang/fr/1024/content/OF00000000400005/7/94/41368947.html

"SCALP Naval - Version dérivée de la version aéroportée du missile de croisière Storm Shadow/Scalp EG destinée à équiper les futures frégates multimissions et les nouveaux sous-marins Barracuda de la Marine française. Le Scalp Naval est une variante mer-surface qui bénéficiera de la plupart des sous-systèmes et capacités déjà développés pour le programme de missile de croisière aéroporté."

cheers
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
SCALP Naval - Version dérivée de la version aéroportée du missile de croisière Storm Shadow/Scalp EG destinée à équiper les futures frégates multimissions et les nouveaux sous-marins Barracuda de la Marine française. Le Scalp Naval est une variante mer-surface qui bénéficiera de la plupart des sous-systèmes et capacités déjà développés pour le programme de missile de croisière aéroporté."
Euh.. c'est en Francais !!

To summerize, the Scalp Naval is only an adapted version of the existing Scalp/Storm Shadow, but I have heard too that the range will be increased to something like 600 km, it can be done easily with larger fuel tanks inside the missile.
Because it is intended to be launched from a submarine, the photo displayed must be the missile inside the submarine launch canister for 533mm torpedo tube (looks like the one used for the Exocet).
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
It is good that the Scalp Naval will have a range of at least 600km. Anything less would make it a duplication of existing (air launched) capabilities.

I would not have liked to see if it was limited to 250km...
 
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